Are consoles actually as bad as most PC enthusiasts say?

[Prysin]

6 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Pretty sure people who crack games bought a copy, then they just share it like you would a physical disc.

problem with that is that once again, by "cracking" it, you make more copies availible the what was originally sold.

 

Reselling a used disc is just like reselling a car. Ford makes no money on you handing the keys and registration papers over to someone else. Nor will the car be legal to drive without the key and papers. If you jumpwire the ignition and doesnt fix the papers its illegal. Because the car is not insured in your name, and you cannot prove you are the owner. without proper keys or papers. If the transition is made in cash, you also cannot prove you even paid the other party for the vehicle. And thus you are most likely be convicted of theft.

 

Thing is, aslong as i do not resell the product for equal or more then i paid for it, i also havent hurt the finances of said company. if someone buys a product used, for a reduced price, it is obvious that said party was uninterested in paying the full price of a new product. You and me both know that i wont be able to resell the game anywhere near its retail cost (unless specific conditions apply, IE: rare title, sold out for weeks, collectable item etc), and as such any resale of a used DISC media is legal. The EULA for most of these products prohibit resale for profit. If you paid 60$ and sell it used for 45$ you havent made profit. You've lost money.

 

There is also the fact that the disc IS the KEY, and whilst cracking a disc is often legal ASLONG AS YOU HOLD A PHYSICAL COPY OF THE PRODUCT which you no longer do if you sell the disc, then you havent broken any laws.

 

You cannot argue it is immoral unless it hurts the company financially, and you cannot argue that aslong as each copy of the disc only permits one user at a time it is irrelevant how many times the disc changes hands. It is not until someone installs then cracks the game and sell the disc that the law has been broken. Until then the disc serves its pupose as a key that is illegal to copy.

 

If you are going to argue piracy laws, atleast know the fundamental principle of any international law or regional law in the first place. 

[Prysin]

36 minutes ago, skywake said:

Three things:

1. That's not how consumer law works (they have to honour their advertised price, consumers will pick the lowest)

2. I'm not sure what your point even is. The 3DS and Vita are already proof that the gap is shrinking

3. Please keep talking because the more you type the better it makes everyone else's posts look

may i remind you of the concept of reading comprehension? Then perhaps you should either look to your own country, and specify that your comment applies only to your own country, OR study a map and realize i talk of a country, quite far away from your own.

 

the 3DS and VITA is proof that cartridge based games costs quite a lot more then digital copies, which a trip to amazon.com would prove to you every single time.

 

As for your third bulletin. Please look at your signature and apply it to yourself. 

[Dabombinable]

5 minutes ago, Prysin said:

may i remind you of the concept of reading comprehension? Then perhaps you should either look to your own country, and specify that your comment applies only to your own country, OR study a map and realize i talk of a country, quite far away from your own.

 

the 3DS and VITA is proof that cartridge based games costs quite a lot more then digital copies, which a trip to amazon.com would prove to you every single time.

 

As for your third bulletin. Please look at your signature and apply it to yourself. 

And with the way your carrying on, I'll save myself from repeating what others have said-also, anecdotal evidence

 

[skywake]

1 hour ago, Prysin said:

may i remind you of the concept of reading comprehension? Then perhaps you should either look to your own country, and specify that your comment applies only to your own country, OR study a map and realize i talk of a country, quite far away from your own.

 

the 3DS and VITA is proof that cartridge based games costs quite a lot more then digital copies, which a trip to amazon.com would prove to you every single time.

The same logic applies whatever country you're in. There's no way that a store having too high a placeholder price can screw them over. Think about it. When you pay for a pre-order, even if you pay the full amount, you're giving the store money in exchange for a spot in the queue. The worst thing that can happen if they have the placeholder price too high is that they're forced to refund you the difference. Which doesn't really cost the store anything. Technically what's happening there is that you're lending the store the difference in price. And good consumer law will allow you to cancel a pre-order entirely anyways.

 

What can screw a company over is if their placeholder price is too low. Technically what they'd be doing is advertising the product for less than retail. If a store puts a pre-order up for $200 and you take up that pre-order? Some consumer laws will force them to honour that $200 price whether the product is $250 or $1000. It also goes the other way. If a store puts up a pre-order for $1000 and the product launches and is advertised $200? They have to honour the new advertised price. Which is why with strong consumer laws (and even without) companies will always put up high placeholder prices. 

 

As for that last bit. You know that I wasn't talking about the cost difference between digital distribution and physical copies. I wasn't even making a claim that cartridges were cheaper than disks. What I said was that the size of cartridges that can be produced while still maintaining a profit are closer to what you can get out of disks than they used to be. And getting closer every year. So if you want to make a comparison? You should compare the prices of physical copies of a big 3DS game like Pokemon Sun/Moon to an equally as recent PS4/XBOne like Battlefield 1. And note that despite being on a cartridge the 3DS game is still cheaper.

 

I look forward to reading your next list of excuses and topic changes

[Bigbootyjudy]

1 hour ago, skywake said:

As for that last bit. You know that I wasn't talking about the cost difference between digital distribution and physical copies. I wasn't even making a claim that cartridges were cheaper than disks. What I said was that the size of cartridges that can be produced while still maintaining a profit are closer to what you can get out of disks than they used to be. And getting closer every year. So if you want to make a comparison? You should compare the prices of physical copies of a big 3DS game like Pokemon Sun/Moon to an equally as recent PS4/XBOne like Battlefield 1. And note that despite being on a cartridge the 3DS game is still cheaper.

Just asking, are we still comparing pc to console gaming or.........

[Bigbootyjudy]

2 hours ago, skywake said:

I look forward to reading your next list of excuses and topic changes

lol, but true. People keep getting off topic on this post/thread

[skywake]

34 minutes ago, Bigbootyjudy said:

Just asking, are we still comparing pc to console gaming or.........

I don't know TBH. I just chimed in with a bit talking about how consoles might soon go back to cartridges because of the rapid improvements in solid state storage vs disks. Which would give consoles back one of the main advantages they used to have over PCs. Basically the way that you used to be able to just put the game in and play it rather than having to install the game. Specifically with the Switch now but in theory also in the next console generation. Unless we're digitally only by then.

 

For some reason certain people wanted to disagree with that...... and here we are....

[snes]

4 hours ago, Prysin said:

the 3DS and VITA is proof that cartridge based games costs quite a lot more then digital copies, which a trip to amazon.com would prove to you every single time.

Yeah we should work harder at putting more people out of their jobs and also tell everyone what to like and dislike. I too never understood why people spend their hard earned money on scented toilet paper or that one wipe charlie bullshit when they could just as well use a washcloth and soapy water. While we're at it... let's burn down all the Ford, Audi, Volkswagen, Porsche etc factories and force everyone to drive a Fiat Panda as that would be more cost efficient.

 

Are you ok with me liking Haribo or do I have to eat the non brand stuff from now on? Also, do I have to feel bad for owning 10 pairs of Vans shoes when I could have gotten a pair of shoes for 10€ from Aldi?

You seem to be a highly intelligent human being and I'm sure that we all could learn a lot from you. Please enlighten us and make our lifes better.

[Prysin]

2 hours ago, skywake said:

The same logic applies whatever country you're in. There's no way that a store having too high a placeholder price can screw them over. Think about it. When you pay for a pre-order, even if you pay the full amount, you're giving the store money in exchange for a spot in the queue. The worst thing that can happen if they have the placeholder price too high is that they're forced to refund you the difference. Which doesn't really cost the store anything. Technically what's happening there is that you're lending the store the difference in price. And good consumer law will allow you to cancel a pre-order entirely anyways.

 

What can screw a company over is if their placeholder price is too low. Technically what they'd be doing is advertising the product for less than retail. If a store puts a pre-order up for $200 and you take up that pre-order? Some consumer laws will force them to honour that $200 price whether the product is $250 or $1000. It also goes the other way. If a store puts up a pre-order for $1000 and the product launches and is advertised $200? They have to honour the new advertised price. Which is why with strong consumer laws (and even without) companies will always put up high placeholder prices. 

 

As for that last bit. You know that I wasn't talking about the cost difference between digital distribution and physical copies. I wasn't even making a claim that cartridges were cheaper than disks. What I said was that the size of cartridges that can be produced while still maintaining a profit are closer to what you can get out of disks than they used to be. And getting closer every year. So if you want to make a comparison? You should compare the prices of physical copies of a big 3DS game like Pokemon Sun/Moon to an equally as recent PS4/XBOne like Battlefield 1. And note that despite being on a cartridge the 3DS game is still cheaper.

 

I look forward to reading your next list of excuses and topic changes

You're such a special snowflake. Anyone who disagrees with you must be wrong. Makes you the real big mvp doesn't it?

Anyway, no, consumer laws differ from country to country, and the repercussions of not following them do too. But i assume you studied law at the prestigious University of Google. 

 

As for your near thoughtless reasoning that Pokemon Sun/Moon is cheaper then BF1.... well, i think there is a disparity in development budget to address long before the production cost of physical copies come into play.... Pokemon games have alot of models, but the artwork is rather sparing, the texture detail is low, the games are as "clean" and undetailed as possible whilst still retaining enough detail to be interesting or engaging. Stuff like that isnt hard to do, not after doing it for 20+ odd years. It's hard to find any real budget numbers, but i know Battlefield 3 spend 2.7 million$ on facebook ads alone during their marketing campaign.... TBH, i think Pokemon Sun/Moon would be max 15-25 million$, many assets are just reskins/reused models of pre-existing pokemons. Textures are upgraded but that is quick work. The world itself is basically the same, with tweaks here and there.

 

So, there IS a disparity in development cost. Nintendo also know they will sell extreme numbers of copies because they have a rabid fanboy following, AAA titles on the other hand, they actually can flop, and they have competition within the same genre. so they have to try a bit harder to set themselves apart, whilst also pushing the envelope of the gaming industry by introducing new mechanics or effects or APIs.... Oh and if you google around, you will see that a BD disc costs between 0.10 to 0.20$ to produce, the cover is 0.30$ including the cover-art..... I have yet to see a single flash chip with 32GB or more storage space cost less then a single dollar to make. But you can dig around Arrow. They sell flash chips.

 

So no, cartridges arent cheap. It's the second reason aside from capacity that caused them to be dumped in the first place.

 

So why is Nintendo starting to use them again? Well, it's Nintendo we're talking of, and Nintendo is acutely aware of their legacy, and if they can play on nostalgia to perhaps draw in those few extra buyers, they sure will. Doesnt matter what the games cost, like i said before, Nintendo is acutely aware that they have a rabid fanboy following that will buy their products regardless of how bad a purchase it is (hardware wise).

 

 

[Prysin]

54 minutes ago, snes said:

Yeah we should work harder at putting more people out of their jobs and also tell everyone what to like and dislike. I too never understood why people spend their hard earned money on scented toilet paper or that one wipe charlie bullshit when they could just as well use a washcloth and soapy water. While we're at it... let's burn down all the Ford, Audi, Volkswagen, Porsche etc factories and force everyone to drive a Fiat Panda as that would be more cost efficient.

 

Are you ok with me liking Haribo or do I have to eat the non brand stuff from now on? Also, do I have to feel bad for owning 10 pairs of Vans shoes when I could have gotten a pair of shoes for 10€ from Aldi?

You seem to be a highly intelligent human being and I'm sure that we all could learn a lot from you. Please enlighten us and make our lifes better.

eat all the gummybears you want for all i care.

 

your passive aggressive ad-hominem is the prime example of why one should think and read before posting.

[Mira Yurizaki]

2 minutes ago, Prysin said:

So why is Nintendo starting to use them again? Well, it's Nintendo we're talking of, and Nintendo is acutely aware of their legacy, and if they can play on nostalgia to perhaps draw in those few extra buyers, they sure will. Doesnt matter what the games cost, like i said before, Nintendo is acutely aware that they have a rabid fanboy following that will buy their products regardless of how bad a purchase it is (hardware wise).

Sure, let's use hokey pokey moving media on a device meant to be portable. That worked really well for Sony.

[Prysin]

5 hours ago, Dabombinable said:

And with the way your carrying on, I'll save myself from repeating what others have said-also, anecdotal evidence

 

first of all, its "You're carrying on". English is your primary language is it not?

 

Anecdotal evidence... thank you for providing the definition so handily ready for me to read, aaaand it applies to nearly nothing of what i said outside of my experience with Aim Assist. You know why? Because you cannot argue that your own morals or ethics is any more correct then mine. Nor can you argue against the fact that i have systematically proven you wrong on pretty much every point. Yet not once, not ONCE have you even tried to counter my argument with any facts of your own, all you present is "your opinion". Well you're perfectly entitled to your own opinion, that however does not make it any more correct nor morally superior nor ethically superior. So sadly, you have no arguments left short of rather distasteful ad hominem that has nothing to do with the conversation at hand.

[Prysin]

11 minutes ago, M.Yurizaki said:

Sure, let's use hokey pokey moving media on a device meant to be portable. That worked really well for Sony.

your argument holds true until you realize that the PSP used a proprietary mini-disc version.... everyone knows that proprietary solutions is shit when there is broad third party support for your device, this is part of why Vita failed too. Game console isnt that expensive, but those damn proprietary storage flash chips are.

 

Nintendo doesn't need to worry about third parties, because there is no sane third party that wants to make anything for their devices so far.... Its all made by or published by or co-developed by Nintendo. Same applies to most of the accessory merch too, sadly. Which is why pricing can be a bit weird at times (4/9 of my friends has 3DS's, and let's just say that what they paid for their stuff make no sense from a hardware/material/manufacturing perspective)

[Mira Yurizaki]

3 minutes ago, Prysin said:

your argument holds true until you realize that the PSP used a proprietary mini-disc version.... everyone knows that proprietary solutions is shit when there is broad third party support for your device, this is part of why Vita failed too. Game console isnt that expensive, but those damn proprietary storage flash chips are.

So the fact that moving parts that require precise alignment, slower access speeds, slower read speeds, higher noise, and extra power consumption mean nothing?

 

Okay. Thanks for proving my point.

[luegnicl]

Just now, M.Yurizaki said:

So the fact that moving parts that require precise alignment, slower access speeds, slower read speeds, noise, and extra power consumption mean nothing?

 

Okay. Thanks for proving my point.

What about flash storage or sth like that?

[Mira Yurizaki]

Just now, luegnicl said:

What about flash storage or sth like that?

But it's "proprietary". That's all that matters to that guy's point!

 

(Never mind that said media is probably already based on existing standards, just "perverted" into a proprietary one because creating a different data link layer is trivial)

[Prysin]

2 minutes ago, M.Yurizaki said:

So the fact that moving parts that require precise alignment, slower access speeds, slower read speeds, higher noise, and extra power consumption mean nothing?

 

Okay. Thanks for proving my point.

yes, in a portable device it is not smart, never argued against it. The UMD disc that the PSP used was also marginally thinner then normal CDs or DVDs, thus being even more prone to breaking.

 

2 minutes ago, luegnicl said:

What about flash storage or sth like that?

SD cards based on the UFS-2 standard is the best solution we got atm, but they need better cooling if they are to be used for prolonged periods of time

[luegnicl]

1 minute ago, Prysin said:

yes, in a portable device it is not smart, never argued against it. The UMD disc that the PSP used was also marginally thinner then normal CDs or DVDs, thus being even more prone to breaking.

 

SD cards based on the UFS-2 standard is the best solution we got atm, but they need better cooling if they are to be used for prolonged periods of time

they do not need so much cooling. it should do it if there is a heat spreader without pads or paste that touches the card when it is inserted

[Prysin]

8 minutes ago, luegnicl said:

they do not need so much cooling. it should do it if there is a heat spreader without pads or paste that touches the card when it is inserted

take a SD card, preferably a very high capacity one, then fill it up with movies and music. then once its done and filled up

let it cool, then open as many media-players and music players as you can at once... then, at your own risk and discretion, try touch that SD card with bare hands... it's not nice.

[luegnicl]

1 minute ago, Prysin said:

take a SD card, preferably a very high capacity one, then fill it up with movies and music. then once its done and filled up

let it cool, then open as many media-players and music players as you can at once... then, at your own risk and discretion, try touch that SD card with bare hands... it's not nice.

we should just expect to do things with it a console can handle. playing one game at a time or watching one movie at a time, nothing like stress testing

[Prysin]

3 minutes ago, luegnicl said:

we should just expect to do things with it a console can handle. playing one game at a time or watching one movie at a time, nothing like stress testing

thing is, if you play a game, that is what it would have to handle... its just hard with a PC to simulate maximum continuous reading like games often do, without installing a game on a SD.....

[Dabombinable]

3 hours ago, Prysin said:

first of all, its "You're carrying on". English is your primary language is it not?

 

Anecdotal evidence... thank you for providing the definition so handily ready for me to read, aaaand it applies to nearly nothing of what i said outside of my experience with Aim Assist. You know why? Because you cannot argue that your own morals or ethics is any more correct then mine. Nor can you argue against the fact that i have systematically proven you wrong on pretty much every point. Yet not once, not ONCE have you even tried to counter my argument with any facts of your own, all you present is "your opinion". Well you're perfectly entitled to your own opinion, that however does not make it any more correct nor morally superior nor ethically superior. So sadly, you have no arguments left short of rather distasteful ad hominem that has nothing to do with the conversation at hand.

I'd pretty much be repeating what I said before-so I decided to just post something else. Also-you do seem uite deluded about some things, such as a PS4 with a 5400RPM 2.5" HDD being capable of loading the same games faster than a modern 3.5" 7200RPM HDD. BTW, with a topic like this I shouldn't have even responded to you in the first place since you've gone full fanboy in the past and sucked up to Sony while saying "fagbox".

[W-L]

I believe we can all agree that this has been a lengthy but fairly reasonable discussion so far, so let's end this one on a high note.

 

 

-Locked-