Jagged Shadows,Pop in,Low LOD and jagged aa

[Noirgheos]

31 minutes ago, k4bn said:

You should try TW1, would be useful info considering that I have it installed right now and I literally just tested it out.

Witcher 1 keeps on crashing. Honestly, gaming on PC is starting to become a chore. I think I should stick to programming and be done with it.

[k4bn]

2 hours ago, Chydzim said:

@k4bn Yes, witcher 2 is broken, but YOU CAN STILL SEE THERE BROKEN AA IN THE VIDEO (look at ropes). Here you have video from payday 2 without any mod with all settings recorded. I uploaded it to mega.nz to not let youtube downgrade quality of video. Idk if it was good idea. Is this enough for you?

https://mega.nz/#!k48jUCJZ!ataWYW0YSh7uzlFv2pWcbBBxhYrVaFzwrcSgn4cKc3Q

If you want to translate - it's polish

Still waiting for long-time test with ryzen.

I watched the video, your game looks fine. The image quality is fine, you have no LOD issues, the shadows are rendered perfectly, the only problem you still have is the terrible aliasing that comes from the actual game. Problem is that all of the aliasing in this case is temporal, in-game AA isn't strong enough to take care of that. Your DSR is turned off in the settings. Turn on and adjust DSR if your PC can handle it and you should be set. 

If you don't believe me watch any let's play video of Payday 2 on youtube, every single one that isn't downsampled has the terrible aliasing. 

9:17(fences), 9:21(jaggies on display), 9:26(door) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLE80r_L5QY

This is what DSR + SMAA looks like, it's the best you can get with the game : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Os7O5WZoZwM

Another example with in-game AA: 4:29(aliasing on wood), 4:34(aliasing in the background), 4:37(aliasing on the drill)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ay_zSuLIZvg

 

Another game that has similar problems to Payday 2 is alien isolation. I'll give you a few more examples of this sort of aliasing if you aren't convinced. It's usually countered by TAA or supersampling. 

 

 

 

Just a standard example of what temporal aliasing is in general and how it differentiates based on resolution:

 

 

 

A screenshot of a heavily jittered temporal aliasing scene:

 

Applying TAA on the scene:

 

An actual video game dev presentation about countering this sort of aliasing, OVK needs to pay attention.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1022970/Temporal-Reprojection-Anti-Aliasing-in
Screenshots from the actual presentation attached.

Unfortunately the devs decided to keep this horror in the game and do nothing about it. SMAA doesn't touch temporal aliasing.

If you are interested in anything else regarding this sort of stuff, feel free to ask.

 

[Chydzim]

Okay, I won't say a single word, because you won't believe me even if the truth will hit you in your face. You still don't understand that I'M GIVING ONLY EXAMPLES. I can make another video from another game, but WHAT IS THE SENSE IF YOU WON'T BELIEVE ME ANYWAY? Problems with AA are in EVERY SINGLE GAME I HAVE PLAYED. Even in outlast 2 with TAA, but it was a lot better. And I hope your PC will be infected too, so you will feel our pain.

 

Sorry for my bad english.

[k4bn]

1 hour ago, Chydzim said:

Okay, I won't say a single word, because you won't believe me even if the truth will hit you in your face. You still don't understand that I'M GIVING ONLY EXAMPLES. I can make another video from another game, WHAT IS THE SENSE IF YOU WON'T BELIEVE ME ANYWAY? Problems with AA are in EVERY SINGLE GAME I HAVE PLAYED. Even in outlast 2 with TAA, but it was a lot better. And I hope your PC will be infected too, so you will feel our pain.

 

Sorry for my bad english.

Well, excuse me for telling you how graphics work and how to reduce the aliasing. My bad. 

[Noirgheos]

11 minutes ago, k4bn said:

Well, excuse me for telling you how graphics work and how to reduce the aliasing. My bad. 

I think when the 8700K releases, I'll grab it along with the new platform, and see if it solves anything. If not, I'll just deal with it.

[lordante]

Ok just launched World of Warships.
It is really unplayable...
So i can say: Ryzen did not correct the jagged line. It corrected some other things.

 

Ok tested "multi sampling x8" it save my ass, but R7 can't handle it...
Before with Intel + R7 MSx8 didn't worrk.
SSOOOO, i need to test again and again, but i find something else than TAA (or MSx8 is TAA?).

[Noirgheos]

1 minute ago, lordante said:

Ok tested "multi sampling x8" it save my ass, but R7 can't handle it...

Before with Intel + R7 MSx8 didn't worrk.


SSOOOO, i need to test again and again, but i find something else than TAA (or MSx8 is TAA?).

It's not the R7 CPU that can't handle it. MSAA is purely GPU bound.

 

Also, is this in-game AA options? Or Hardware? AFAIK, MSAA doesn't work in DX11 due to deferred rendering.

[lordante]

The game is in DX 11.

All change are in game options.

R7 370 was on the Intel computer, it is the same GPU.

MSx8 is working with DX11 actually, just click on my stream man...

[Noirgheos]

1 minute ago, lordante said:

The game is in DX 11.

All change are in game options.

R7 370 was on the Intel computer, it is the same GPU.

MSx8 is working with DX11 actually, just click on my stream man...

I meant though hardware-forced, not in-game. Anyway, did 4xMSAA work with your Intel CPU and current GPU?

 

Just look up World of Warships MSAA and you'll find people with it clearly working with their Intel CPUs.

[lordante]

I stopped WoWs because nothing in option can't stop the flickering lines. AND ONCE AGAIN, WE KNOW NOT EVERY ONE IS AFFECTED...

I need to restart my computer right now because got some crash on relive (R7 370 is really pushed hard).

4x MS is working well, still some white lines but is is playable, with no fps drop. 8x = large fps drop, this is normal for this old GPU, but still, 8x is really a great improve!

[k4bn]

12 hours ago, lordante said:

I stopped WoWs because nothing in option can't stop the flickering lines. AND ONCE AGAIN, WE KNOW NOT EVERY ONE IS AFFECTED...

I need to restart my computer right now because got some crash on relive (R7 370 is really pushed hard).

4x MS is working well, still some white lines but is is playable, with no fps drop. 8x = large fps drop, this is normal for this old GPU, but still, 8x is really a great improve!

You get a large FPS drop because MSAA is used combined with deferred rendering. Basically, it uses a lot more memory and bandwidth compared to forward rendering engines. And yeah, WoW switched to deferred rendering a few years ago.  https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/15936285/engineer-s-workshop-engine-evolution-in-warlords-of-draenor

 

In comparison, Valve games for example, use Source that has forward rendering. You can test out how nicely 8xMSAA works in there(CS:GO, L4D2, Portal, HL2).  It's hardly a performance hit, even on older hardware and it works better. But yeah, MSAA doesn't  work on alpha tests and some shader aliasing, so games usually gotta build around that. Best way is having forward rendering and I gave some examples on how The Witness counters this. 

 

Although it's still better to use deferred rendering if the game needs some dynamic/complex lighting. Only problem is that a lot of game devs go for post-processing techniques like FXAA, but not TAA.

[lordante]

Anyway it doesn't change the fact than before changing for Ryzen, i wasn't able to stop the lightning lines.

Now i can...

May be it is God? Since you can't believe it is linked with CPU. And especialy Intel ones.

The FACTS: i changed all harware ALL, i change for ryzen and keep same GPU, and... Voila, best quality everywhere, and some games i can't even play before are now totaly playable.

I will test WarThunder when i have the time too...

 

[k4bn]

1 hour ago, lordante said:

Anyway it doesn't change the fact than before changing for Ryzen, i wasn't able to stop the lightning lines.

Now i can...

May be it is God? Since you can't believe it is linked with CPU. And especialy Intel ones.

The FACTS: i changed all harware ALL, i change for ryzen and keep same GPU, and... Voila, best quality everywhere, and some games i can't even play before are now totaly playable.

I will test WarThunder when i have the time too...

 

Who knows? Only way to be sure is to replicate the difference in quality on your older CPU. Till then it's all speculation. 

[Noirgheos]

Seeing other replies here, their issues seem to make the games near unplayable. While I do notice some pretty bad aliasing in most games, it's not nearly as bad as to make it unplayable. I should get a 4K monitor...

 

Alright, testing Far Cry 4 and Primal on both my Intel and Ryzen systems, AA seems to work fine on both. Looks like I don't have the issue, and my previous complaints were just due to FXAA looking terrible in most of the games I play.

[k4bn]

1 hour ago, Noirgheos said:

Alright, testing Far Cry 4 and Primal on both my Intel and Ryzen systems, AA seems to work fine on both. Looks like I don't have the issue, and my previous complaints were just due to FXAA looking terrible in most of the games I play.

Yeah, that's fine. You can see the effect of FXAA on static scenes usually, but it doesn't account for temporal/specular/shader aliasing. Essentially, it doesn't do a very good job in motion. There's a pretty useful video I've already posted in this thread that demonstrates what a few different key AA methods do in an actual game engine. I'll do it again just in case some people still get confused, because it can get confusing at times. 

 

[Noirgheos]

35 minutes ago, k4bn said:

Yeah, that's fine. You can see the effect of FXAA on static scenes usually, but it doesn't account for temporal/specular/shader aliasing. Essentially, it doesn't do a very good job in motion. There's a pretty useful video I've already posted in this thread that demonstrates what a few different key AA methods do in an actual game engine. I'll do it again just in case some people still get confused, because it can get confusing at times. 

It's just infuriating some of my favorite games are plagued by the garbage that is FXAA. I guess the only solution would be increasing pixel density. I would get a 24" 1440p monitor, but then my PS4 would scale to 1/3, so I'm jumping to 27" 4K 144Hz as soon as they drop below C$700

[k4bn]

1 hour ago, Noirgheos said:

It's just infuriating some of my favorite games are plagued by the garbage that is FXAA. I guess the only solution would be increasing pixel density. I would get a 24" 1440p monitor, but then my PS4 would scale to 1/3, so I'm jumping to 27" 4K 144Hz as soon as they drop below C$700

Apart from the obvious, if you can override the AA in your graphics control panel, then you can force a heavy AA(SGSSAA/supersampling for example) or play around with the settings till you get it right. Higher levels of this AA usually handle most aliasing very nicely. If the game engine prevents control panel overrides, then you can still use DSR. It should work pretty well, especially if you can downsample from 4k. Depends on the game though, some still have some weird shader/specular/temporal aliasing that you still can't alleviate without supersampling/TAA. Depending on the game, you should always google for mods/fixes if you still haven't countered all the aliasing. I mentioned that a person made a mod for Alien Isolation(which is notorious for its bad in-game AA, even worse than Payday 2) that has built in TAA. There's usually useful stuff you can find online. 

 

A 4k monitor with high PPI would reduce most aliasing in some video games, but there's always more problematic video games. That's usually games that use deferred rendering and don't support TAA. There's a video with some useful examples combining AA on 4k that you can see for yourself.  Not sure what the actual monitor here was used, so view this with that in mind. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1W9QfJbEz0

 

 

[Noirgheos]

56 minutes ago, k4bn said:

Apart from the obvious, if you can override the AA in your graphics control panel, then you can force a heavy AA(SGSSAA/supersampling for example) or play around with the settings till you get it right. Higher levels of this AA usually handle most aliasing very nicely. If the game engine prevents control panel overrides, then you can still use DSR. It should work pretty well, especially if you can downsample from 4k. Depends on the game though, some still have some weird shader/specular/temporal aliasing that you still can't alleviate without supersampling/TAA. Depending on the game, you should always google for mods/fixes if you still haven't countered all the aliasing. I mentioned that a person made a mod for Alien Isolation(which is notorious for its bad in-game AA, even worse than Payday 2) that has built in TAA. There's usually useful stuff you can find online. 

 

A 4k monitor with high PPI would reduce most aliasing in some video games, but there's always more problematic video games. That's usually games that use deferred rendering and don't support TAA. There's a video with some useful examples combining AA on 4k that you can see for yourself.  Not sure what the actual monitor here was used, so view this with that in mind. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1W9QfJbEz0

 

 

Thanks to deferred rendering, control panel AA rarely ever works in most modern games. DSR also causes my cursor to do odd things. among constantly re-arranging my icons on the desktop.

 

Seems like TXAA4 is better than pure 4K according to that video, but I'm pretty much doubling pixel density from my current monitor if I get a 27" 4K. I tried TXAA4 in Far Cry 4 and compared it to MSAA, and I don't notice that much of a difference between the two, even in areas with lots of foliage and trees, where specular and temporal aliasing is quite abundant. Honestly, now that I know I don't really have any issues, and it's just how it is, I can come to terms with it.

[lordante]

Quote

Who knows? Only way to be sure is to replicate the difference in quality on your older CPU. Till then it's all speculation. 

Because i tested with two different Intel CPU, 3 MB,2 set of ram, 5 differents GPU, 2 PSU 3screens, ton of different cables..? (oh wait with my firends computer, it makes 3 Intel and 4 MB and 3 set of ram, etc..., it was using the R7 i actualy use!)

Because even Intel accepted to return my CPU after i did all the test they wanted and give them my buyer proof of all the hardware tested? They even give me 50€+ than what i paid!

You allready harass us saying we are dumb and nothing is wrong. Then we try Ryzen, and, magic, lot of troubles are gone.
 

[Noirgheos]

1 minute ago, lordante said:

Because i tested with two different Intel CPU, 3 MB,2 set of ram, 5 differents GPU, 2 PSU 3screens, ton of different cables..? (oh wait with my firends computer, it makes 3 Intel and 4 MB and 3 set of ram, etc..., it was using the R7 i actualy use!)

Because even Intel accepted to return my CPU after i did all the test they wanted and give them my buyer proof of all the hardware tested? They even give me 50€+ than what i paid!

You allready harass us saying we are dumb and nothing is wrong. Then we try Ryzen, and, magic, lot of troubles are gone.
 

Point he's trying to make is that your issues are few and far in-between. I just confirmed that my Intel and Ryzen systems don't have any issues, and what I was seeing was just a result of poor AA techniques. 

[lordante]

The poor AA is not the only problem. And, it did not correct it for FXAA (but for MS it looks like it worked after i tested it on WoWs).

I had tons of trouble with lod and shadows, some flickering ground and foliage, all is gone!

And my friend can play same games as me, without all the AA trouble, he has same Intel generation as me and same AMD GPU generation as me!

If you allready played Dragon Age Origin, did you have all the edge moving like mad because of AA/no AA ? How a so old game can look worse now than before?

 

[Noirgheos]

2 minutes ago, lordante said:

The poor AA is not the only problem. And, it did not correct it for FXAA (but for MS it looks like it worked after i tested it on WoWs).

I had tons of trouble with lod and shadows, some flickering ground and foliage, all is gone!

And my friend can play same games as me, without all the AA trouble, he has same Intel generation as me and same AMD GPU generation as me!

If you allready played Dragon Age Origin, did you have all the edge moving like mad because of AA/no AA ? How a so old game can look worse now than before?

 

Sure, you had issues. Point he's making is that something other than it just being Intel must have caused the issue, seeing as the vast majority of PC gamers don't have them.

[lordante]

I tested 3 different Intel CPU without any change.
First Ryzen CPU corrected 80% of my troubles.

Read BuckGup post, same for him, it is like wearing glasses for the first time <--- his words.

We are two people (three with the original one) who notice this, what do we have in comon WE CHANGED FROM INTEL TO RYZEN!

[lordante]

If it is a damaged intel component OR, something happening only with intel (like the L2 memory suggested, or Northbridge), yes it is Intel related.

If i tested all possibilities, and, MAGIC, Ryzen works... AND if three of us did with the same results!

Even people who bought a totaly new computer, with Intel again in it, managed to get the bug back! AND IMPORTANT: it worked well for some weeks, and then SUDDENTLY, bug is back. They did not change hardware or software!

So if you do not have any test, solution, and just saying nothing usefull (or totaly saying we are idiot at last!), WHY THE HELL do you continue to post?

[PCGuy_5960]

33 minutes ago, Noirgheos said:

I'm sure many people with Sandy Bridge CPUs have had it for six years, also have no issues. I even got Ryzen and confirmed no difference.

This thread is about the sudden change in graphics, right? How can we be so sure that the same thing won't happen with Ryzen after a while?