PSU Tier List [OLD]

[17030644]

1 minute ago, Rexper said:

What frequency the PSU operates the caps at, how much airflow there is to the capacitors, how hot the area is, etc.

Yeah but that's hard to tell right?

[17030644]

2 minutes ago, Rexper said:

What frequency the PSU operates the caps at, how much airflow there is to the capacitors, how hot the area is, etc.

Yeah that's what I've heard you can make the worst capacitors last if they are cool enough 

[Stefan Payne]

6 hours ago, 17030644 said:

CSM is group regulated isn't it?

no, its basically a lower end version of the TXm we have today.

 

6 hours ago, awesomegamer919 said:

CSm like last week or so

I was talking about ultra low ESR wet electrolytic caps specifically!

You know something like Nippon Chemicon KZG/KZJ, Panasonic FJ, Nichicon HN and all other "Ultra Low ESR" capacitors that were thrown out by most manufacturers. And replaced with Poplymer Capacitors...

 

Those ones that have high water content, thus lowering ESR and increasing the reaction and decrease lifetime and reliability...

 

The Nichicon HN for example only has 10mOhm Impedance at 10x25mm and 2900mA Ripple Current - and are only specified for 1000-2000h lifetime.

 

Teapo SZ seem to have higher Impedance of 14mOhm and only 2318 for 10x20mm types...

That's like double the Ripple Current and less than half (or rather 1/4th) of impedance of a similar Teapo SC, 

6 hours ago, 17030644 said:

what do you mean by design and layout

how far the next hot thing is and thus how cool the caps stay, how much ripple the cap does have to endure, frequency, how much redundancy...

[VIVO-US]

On ‎11‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 9:49 PM, 17030644 said:

Yeah that's what I've heard you can make the worst capacitors last if they are cool enough 

That's partly true, but not completely.  You would also have to over-spec the capacitors a lot more than you would with quality parts to prevent them from being stressed too much (even if they're kept ice cold), and make sure the circuit accounts for the poor spec tolerance of the caps which can have a variance of +/-20% or more from their rating.  By the time all is said and done, it would have cost the same to just use the good parts.

 

The cheap power supplies with poor quality caps remain cheap because they don't account for poor tolerance or anything else mentioned.  They're basically just thrown together as quickly as possible, the factory might test a few samples to make sure they turn on without blowing up out of the box, then they'll crank them out with a production cost of $2 to $3 a piece (no joke there by the way - an OEM actually made that offer to us a while back).  So when you buy a "400W" power supply for $20 and free shipping, the truth is you're paying about $15 for shipping and $5 for the PSU.

[Spotty]

11 minutes ago, VIVO-US said:

They're basically just thrown together as quickly as possible, the factory might test a few samples to make sure they turn on without blowing up out of the box, then they'll crank them out with a production cost of $2 to $3 a piece (no joke there by the way - an OEM actually made that offer to us a while back).  So when you buy a "400W" power supply for $20 and free shipping, the truth is you're paying about $15 for shipping and $5 for the PSU.

Bit off topic, but when I worked in a liquor store a bottle of whisky had about $22 alcohol tax on it (based on alcohol content). Cheapest bottles started at $30 which includes another 10% (~$2.70) sales tax. So a $30 bottle of scotch would be about $24-$25 tax. That leaves about $5 to produce it, bottle it (bottling is quite expensive), label it, ship it from Scotland to Australia, distribute to stores, and include a profit margin for the store... And customers still asked me if it tasted alright.

[komi1997]

Hello, I have A10-7870k atm running on LC Power 600(know it's crap but i don't even have GPU) so I'm getting RX570 4GB in a week and I gotta get new PSU, will be running this CPU until spring, waiting 3rd gen Ryzen 5 to upgrade the whole platform.

99% I'm getting bequiet! pure power 10 or 11 if I can get my hands on 11(is it just gold rated pure power 10 basically?) bequiet! PSU calculator tell me that 350w pure power 11 would be enough but it's best to get 400w one, my question is if I should get 400w or 500w one, I use PC mainly for WoW and internet and i won't upgrade RX570 at least until september 2020 when next expansion will come out, if I end up getting something power hungry at that point I'll get better PSU, that's not problem, I'm just a bit sceptical about putting RX570 and Ryzen 5 on a 400w PSU, here in Serbia I will buy imported stuff from Hungary and 500w is 25% more expensive than 400w, so if 400w if enough I could add another fan to case or get better quality SSD, something along those lines, I am aware of there being normal and semi-modular versions of pure power 10/11 but I don't really care about it being modular, just need it to do the job.

[MEC-777]

3 hours ago, komi1997 said:

Hello, I have A10-7870k atm running on LC Power 600(know it's crap but i don't even have GPU) so I'm getting RX570 4GB in a week and I gotta get new PSU, will be running this CPU until spring, waiting 3rd gen Ryzen 5 to upgrade the whole platform.

99% I'm getting bequiet! pure power 10 or 11 if I can get my hands on 11(is it just gold rated pure power 10 basically?) bequiet! PSU calculator tell me that 350w pure power 11 would be enough but it's best to get 400w one, my question is if I should get 400w or 500w one, I use PC mainly for WoW and internet and i won't upgrade RX570 at least until september 2020 when next expansion will come out, if I end up getting something power hungry at that point I'll get better PSU, that's not problem, I'm just a bit sceptical about putting RX570 and Ryzen 5 on a 400w PSU, here in Serbia I will buy imported stuff from Hungary and 500w is 25% more expensive than 400w, so if 400w if enough I could add another fan to case or get better quality SSD, something along those lines, I am aware of there being normal and semi-modular versions of pure power 10/11 but I don't really care about it being modular, just need it to do the job.

Would recommend going with something in the 450w range for the system and GPU you will be running. It's hard to find units of good quality at lower wattage than that (350w range) but you don't need anything more than 450w.  

[komi1997]

3 hours ago, MEC-777 said:

Would recommend going with something in the 450w range for the system and GPU you will be running. It's hard to find units of good quality at lower wattage than that (350w range) but you don't need anything more than 450w.  

yeah, kind of a what I was thinking, I found these Tier 2 stuff, 500w normal is 65 euros, semi-modular is 70 euros, gotta contact seller for price on 400w ones, but normal one is almost 20% cheaper so it should be max 55 euros, they don't make them at 450w afaik, and everything else in tier 2 is 100+ euros here in Serbia which is noticable difference in price

[TahoeDust]

What makes the EVGA G2 better than the G3?

[seon123]

2 minutes ago, TahoeDust said:

What makes the EVGA G2 better than the G3?

Not being confirmed to have issues with its OTP and OPP. 

[TahoeDust]

1 minute ago, seon123 said:

Not being confirmed to have issues with its OTP and OPP. 

I guess I missed it.  What issues did the G3 have with those?  I am moving from a 850w G2 to a 1000w G3.  Any reason to be concerned?

[seon123]

5 minutes ago, TahoeDust said:

I guess I missed it.  What issues did the G3 have with those?  I am moving from a 850w G2 to a 1000w G3.  Any reason to be concerned?

Too high tripping point for the OTP. Stuff can start melting. And some of the review samples died before tripping OTP. 

The higher wattage G3 versions are also among the loudest PSUs on the market. It doesn't factor into this tier list, but it's something to be aware of. 

https://www.cybenetics.com/a/GGh/

[TahoeDust]

1 minute ago, seon123 said:

Too high tripping point for the OTP. Stuff can start melting. And some of the review samples died before tripping OTP. 

The higher wattage G3 versions are also among the loudest PSUs on the market. It doesn't factor into this tier list, but it's something to be aware of. 

https://www.cybenetics.com/a/GGh/

Hmmm...

 

Thanks for the info.  I have an opportunity to buy a 1600w T2 from EVGA for $150.  I am not sure I can make it work in my case because of the power cord it uses.

[comicsansms]

3 minutes ago, TahoeDust said:

Hmmm...

 

Thanks for the info.  I have an opportunity to buy a 1600w T2 from EVGA for $150.  I am not sure I can make it work in my case because of the power cord it uses.

Why are you buying a new PSU?

[TahoeDust]

1 minute ago, Comic_Sans_MS said:

Why are you buying a new PSU?

Convenience.  I am going to be running my current rig until this one is done.

[TahoeDust]

Anything I should know about a 1200w P2?

[MEC-777]

@TahoeDust May I ask why you need such a high wattage PSU? What specs are you running in this system? 

 

FYI, higher-wattage =/= longer life span. 

Higher quality = longer lifespan. 

[TahoeDust]

12 minutes ago, MEC-777 said:

@TahoeDust May I ask why you need such a high wattage PSU? What specs are you running in this system? 

 

FYI, higher-wattage =/= longer life span. 

Higher quality = longer lifespan. 

x299 with one 2080 ti may add another.  7820x for now...but will probably go HCC eventually.  I'm pretty sure EVGA 1200w P2 is considered high quality.

 

EVGA x299 Dark Mobo

i7-7820x

EVGA 2080 ti FTW3

Samsung 970 Pro 1tb

Samsung 860 Evo 2tb

Custom water 420mm+280mm

[MEC-777]

6 minutes ago, TahoeDust said:

x299 with one 2080 ti may add another.  7820x for now...but will probably go HCC eventually.  I'm pretty sure EVGA 1200w P2 is considered high quality.

It's your choice, not denying that or knocking it. Just saying it's unnecessary to go with something that high in wattage. 850-1000w would be plenty (even with 2x 2080Ti's) will probably save you a few dollars and run a bit quieter. 

[TahoeDust]

2 minutes ago, MEC-777 said:

It's your choice, not denying that or knocking it. Just saying it's unnecessary to go with something that high in wattage. 850-1000w would be plenty (even with 2x 2080Ti's) will probably save you a few dollars and run a bit quieter. 

IDK man...I pull up to around 670w at the wall with my 7820x and one 2080ti.  The 2080ti itself can pull 373w.  Two of those puts me at ~750w...throw in a overclocked 7980xe and even the 1200w does not leave much headroom.

 

Thanks for the heads up though.

[MEC-777]

22 minutes ago, TahoeDust said:

IDK man...I pull up to around 670w at the wall with my 7820x and one 2080ti.  The 2080ti itself can pull 373w.  Two of those puts me at ~750w...throw in a overclocked 7980xe and even the 1200w does not leave much headroom.

 

Thanks for the heads up though.

Where did you get those power draw numbers from for the 2080Ti? That looks like peak power draw, which is only for a few milliseconds. Careful not to confuse that with constant power draw which is the number that really matters. It's probably much closer to 300w each with a healthy OC. 7980xe is a 165w chip, which is pretty thirsty and with an OC, yeah you could be looking at a system drawing between 850-900w peak. I still think 1000w would be more than plenty, but regardless, that system would be quite the room heater, that's for sure. lol

[TahoeDust]

13 minutes ago, MEC-777 said:

Where did you get those power draw numbers from for the 2080Ti? That looks like peak power draw, which is only for a few milliseconds. Careful not to confuse that with constant power draw which is the number that really matters. It's probably much closer to 300w each with a healthy OC. 7980xe is a 165w chip, which is pretty thirsty and with an OC, yeah you could be looking at a system drawing between 850-900w peak. I still think 1000w would be more than plenty, but regardless, that system would be quite the room heater, that's for sure. lol

I saw those numbers while playing COD:BO4 ultra settings 3440x1440 and streaming at 900p using obs x264 very fast.

[Stefan Payne]

16 hours ago, VIVO-US said:

That's partly true, but not completely.  You would also have to over-spec the capacitors a lot more than you would with quality parts to prevent them from being stressed too much (even if they're kept ice cold), and make sure the circuit accounts for the poor spec tolerance of the caps which can have a variance of +/-20% or more from their rating.  By the time all is said and done, it would have cost the same to just use the good parts.

Depends on what types we are talking about.

You do not have to overspec the caps, you have to tune your circuit in a way that the Ripple Current is as low as possible, so that you don't even need "high spec" Capacitors. And the next thing to do is keep the heat away from the capacitors.

People say that ltec Caps in Delta Units are fine and last long because of the design.

But we're talking about Delta here. For them it makes more sense to waste another 100h of Engineering time to tune the circuit so that the demand towards the used components is lower than before than to waste another 10cent on better capacitors...

 

But that's not the only thing to worry about these days. What really might kill the caps today are the GPU and partly also the CPU as well.

 

16 hours ago, VIVO-US said:

The cheap power supplies with poor quality caps remain cheap because they don't account for poor tolerance or anything else mentioned.

Yeah, that's why they're cheap.

But the worst thing is that the cheapos aren't any cheaper than similar (real wattage) named brand units. I've noticed that years ago when I saw that many lower quality units were sold for more than a decent quality 300-350W PSU from a named brand (like be quiet, FSP) would have been. And they both would also have had the same connectors...

And while FSP likes CapXon, the no Name would have had either those light greenish caps, ChengX or something like that....

 

16 hours ago, VIVO-US said:

  They're basically just thrown together as quickly as possible, the factory might test a few samples to make sure they turn on without blowing up out of the box, then they'll crank them out with a production cost of $2 to $3 a piece (no joke there by the way - an OEM actually made that offer to us a while back).  So when you buy a "400W" power supply for $20 and free shipping, the truth is you're paying about $15 for shipping and $5 for the PSU.

Yeah but those units are mostly gone here in Europe. There are still some real shitty units poping up here and there but its illegal to sell them in prebuilt PCs. And due to regulation, some bigger PC Builders use bigger brands (be quiet, Kolink, Xilence) anyway because if someone from a regulatory thing comes around and wants to see the certificates and you don't have them, you've got some serious problems. Like Mafia style ones...

[Stefan Payne]

16 hours ago, komi1997 said:

LC Power 600

Condolences...

 

16 hours ago, komi1997 said:

99% I'm getting bequiet! pure power 10 or 11 if I can get my hands on 11(is it just gold rated pure power 10 basically?)

Not exactly, you get 2 Years of Warranty more with the 11 compared to the 10. But that's really it. ~1% higher Efficiency and 2 Years Warranty.

 

16 hours ago, komi1997 said:

bequiet! PSU calculator tell me that 350w pure power 11 would be enough but it's best to get 400w one,

Correct

Because the 300 and 350W are basically the same since the original Pure Power L6. Some tweaks here and there but that's about it.

For a gaming PC; i'd get the 400W because it uses independant Voltage Regulation.

16 hours ago, komi1997 said:

my question is if I should get 400w or 500w one, I use PC mainly for WoW and internet and i won't upgrade RX570

Depends on how much money you have and want to spend.

If you're at the lower mid range, you'll be fine with a 400W for all eternity, if you don't want to overclock at all.

 

16 hours ago, komi1997 said:

I'm just a bit sceptical about putting RX570 and Ryzen 5 on a 400w PSU,

depends if you want to overclock or not.

w/o OC; no problemo

with OC its cutting it close.

 

I have a Ryzen 7/1700x with an RX480 myself and its not that bad, IIRC around 300W with Prime and Heaven. Something like that.

 

[komi1997]

7 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

Not exactly, you get 2 Years of Warranty more with the 11 compared to the 10. But that's really it. ~1% higher Efficiency and 2 Years Warranty.

 

For a gaming PC; i'd get the 400W because it uses independant Voltage Regulation.

Depends on how much money you have and want to spend.

If you're at the lower mid range, you'll be fine with a 400W for all eternity, if you don't want to overclock at all.

Yeah, it will be gaming PC for World of Warcraft mainly, i don't plan to overclock it, I overclocked this A10-7870k to 4.7GHz because it was severely bottlenecking me in raids, with Ryzen 5 i won't have to worry about that, I just want to be able to run most of the time at 60fps and that's it, that's why I will only get RX570, might even undervolt and downclock it a little, probably gonna get Gigabyte mining one, it's like normal gaming one just with 3 month warranty no backplate and no RGB for 50 euros cheaper, and they have to give me 2 year warranty by law anyway, sounds like good value to me, I'm going to call a guy today to see about those PSU's to see how much is the price difference between 10 and 11 and 400/500 w versions, electricity is super cheap here so I don't need that efficiency boost of 11, but warranty may come in handy some day, you never know