Low image quality on newer GPUs

[Zathel]

Have you played War Thunder? It's the game where the problem is the most obvious. Even Dota 2 has flickery shadows and jagged lines. Something is messsed up and we're trying to find out what. People with technical knowledge are helping to find out what it is. People without knowledge cant help it but speculate to sometimes insane things, but they too have the problem nonetheless. The problem can't be seen of course on stationary images as it is a thing that happens when you are moving your camera. when the environment is dynamic and changing. For me, any game that does not have TAA or TXAA is like having no AA at all, whatever the setting i put. I don't know why, but it is like that, and i would love to know why and how to fix it as i remember playing with FXAA was fine till a couple of years ago. 

[Zathel]

No use in heating up. This issue is so strange and the users having it so few it's normal people will be skeptical/think it's "us" who've gone mad or stuff like that.

Just reasonably explaining, saying what we tried and whatnot, tell of our comparisons etc.etc. can slowly convince even the more skeptical. Be patient. If we rage at ourselves we'll never get anything out of it still and we'll even be bad mooded after .

Every thread i search, every forum i visit, i see people being oblivious on purpose or just too damn ignorant. They are the reason why this problem exists. If people would aknowledge the problem, we would have found a solution and the culprit would have taken responsibility. And you know what? I wasted way too much money to have ridiculous problems like these. This is insane. And someone, somewhere needs to do something about it.  

[LabRat]

without reading this to the end....... if nvidia did disable the LOD it would help increase the performance of older architecture giving the illusion of a "rebrand"/remodel being a  higher grade card. but we've seen nvidia drag the 8800 series through several seasons under different monickers before.

 

the tests, yes, I see the ripples in the roadway vs the upper photo but judging an old DX9 card with a newer DX card isn't exactly fair. And I don't see any of the test systems being revealed including monitors and game/control panel settings.

 

I will confess I don't run nvidia cards and haven't since the 6600gtx came out and that too "broke" like many other nvidia graphics cards. still hoping and praying, but I hope and pray with AMD too (2016).

[sandboarder08]

I don't understand if you and a few people are having problems with a certain brand then why not switch. Nvidia could care less especially when technically the card operates.

[MarkFMB]

I don't understand if you and a few people are having problems with a certain brand then why not switch. Nvidia could care less especially when technically the card operates.

If you read the post you'd know the problem sticks even if you change card once you have it. I would have gladly plugged back my r9 280x and sold my 970 if that worked fine. Now also that one is malfunctioning. So is my 750 ti. Not plugged any older card i have not to "damage" or whatever it is them as well.

 

Whether it's caused by defective maxwell cards, the drivers or some other external source, something is affecting the hardware here imho.

[Zathel]

I don't understand if you and a few people are having problems with a certain brand then why not switch. Nvidia could care less especially when technically the card operates.

Sorry, but i cant waste another 500 to buy a new card. My 970 is exactly 1 year old.

[LokiFire]

You're trolling mate? go back to your console you're of no help here.

22 posts and a rude dunce.

[Zathel]

22 posts and a rude dunce.

Number of posts do not make someone good/bad, troll or not. We created a thread here because we need help to find the solution to an obnoxious problem that is unacceptable to exist for so long and you're just here trying to cause problems and calling us crazy. Just because you're oblivious and can't see the problem for yourself or you're just too damn ignorant to accept it does not mean that you'll ruin our try here. Please excuse yourself out of this thread or try to actually help to find whatever the cause of this problem is. I know the people in these forums are good and really helpful, but as it is in the human nature, problematic people do and will always exist. Please, don't be one of them, thank you. 

[Monarch]

@MarkFMB  @Zathel

There are different types of aliasing, and there are different types of AA not only to address different sorts of aliasing, but to also provide different techniques of solving the issue, so that devs can choose what they think works best and is compatible with their game engine. To get rid of all aliasing you'd need a combination of AA techniques. Choosing the right AA method(s) is a not an easy task. When doing so, devs have to keep in mind engine compatibility, platform compatibility, IQ benefit, performance cost, quality/performance ratio, memory cost, production cost, type of aliasing they're targeting... 

 

By the way, I found something!
 Playing the latest games "Star Wars Battlefront" and "Fallout 4" i noticed that when i enabled the TAA Antialiasing option the shimmering and the jagded lines were completely gone. When i switched back to FXAA, the games were like they had no AA at all! Anyone got any idea on that? 

 

That's because TAA combats temporal aliasing. Games that don't have TAA will have flickering and crawling in motion, that's normal. MSAA, for example, only addresses geometric aliasing. 

Aliasing was always an issue in real-time rendering. You just didn't notice it until recently, and now you can't unsee it.

 

Also,

 

Z-fighting is a common problem in games. Sometimes there are workarounds like modifying .ini files, but sometimes you can't do anything and can only hope developer will fix it.

 

 

You'd need a graphics engine developer to explain you exactly what's going on and whether or not these issues can be fixed. What's certain is that none of these issues are hardware/hardware vendor specific. Some of them are normal and are caused by aliasing and lack of proper AA, and some, like z-fighting, object pop-in, shadow flickering are game/game engine related issues. 

[tsrbino]

MarkFMB, I like the way you think.  You are obviously willing to think outside the box and consider alternative possibilities concerning this issue. You mentioned the possibility of a virus or some other outside source possibly causing this and you recognized the fact that this problem seems to be "contagious" when swapping hardware into different systems. These are two things that people who have never experienced this immediately write off as impossible (and I do understand why).  I've been researching and troubleshooting this for almost a year and I can say with near certainty that no one has ever managed to find out what is causing this through conventional troubleshooting methods, so as far as I'm concerned it is time to at least consider other possibilities.  The biggest mystery for me is that this issue has persisted for me after building TWO completely new rigs with ALL new components and hardware. How does this happen?  Perhaps some outside source?  I've noticed something very interesting. While watching television I see some of these same anomalies on certain shows, mostly cartoons, South Park in particular.  There is heavy aliasing and flashing on everything. I know South Park started out as a cut and paste thing, but now It's most likely heavily computer generated. All the televisions in my house show this, even ones my pc has not been connected to.  I had the chance to talk to an electrician and he said that such visual anomalies could be somehow connected to poor, faulty, or ungrounded wiring. But this did not start happening while watching television until it started on my pc. Could a faulty gpu somehow have damaged my electrical wiring? It doesn't seem likely or even possible and is the sort of theory that could alienate you in almost any tech forum, but damn it we need to figure this out.

[vanished]

I've noticed something very interesting. While watching television I see some of these same anomalies on certain shows, mostly cartoons, South Park in particular.  There is heavy aliasing and flashing on everything. I know South Park started out as a cut and paste thing, but now It's most likely 

Wait, what?  Do somehow have access to the raw originals?  Because otherwise you are playing a pre-rendered video file.  As in, each frame is an image, already set in stone.  So unless the show was rendered on hardware/software experiencing this problem, it would look the same (correct) for everyone.  Plus, as far as I know they use some 2D animation software, like Flash (but something else); it's not 3D - at least not for most scenes.

 

I would very much like to see what you are seeing.  If you could post a video of that I would be very interested.

[tsrbino]

Wait, what?  Do somehow have access to the raw originals?  Because otherwise you are playing a pre-rendered video file.  As in, each frame is an image, already set in stone.  So unless the show was rendered on hardware/software experiencing this problem, it would look the same (correct) for everyone.  Plus, as far as I know they use some 2D animation software, like Flash (but something else); it's not 3D - at least not for most scenes.

 

I would very much like to see what you are seeing.  If you could post a video of that I would be very interested.

I don't have the ability to record and post a video of it, but perhaps I could explain it in more detail. All lines that are not perfectly horizontal or vertical have a very noticeable and pronounced stair stepping aliasing effect (one of the same symptoms as on my games).  Additionally, certain straight and often horizontal lines are doing what I can best describe as  jumping around and flashing. This happens most often with lines that are parallel with each other, such as blinds on windows, tiles on a floor, or steps on a flight of stairs. Lines like this also have a striping effect just like the temporal aliasing in my games.  Of course I am not watching raw originals of South Park and I realize that it's a pre-rendered video file. It seems like my television is now rendering the image this way.  It doesn't just happen with cartoons but definitely happens more often and is more noticeable with cartoons. By the way, every television in the house is showing this and yes I did test my pc with an actual computer monitor, which made no difference. And my televisions are not smart TVs and are not connected to a network. This seems to perhaps point to some electrical problem. I'm not the only person noticing this while watching tv. In another forum a member said he was noticing this on televisions in his home too, often noticing it on the goal nets when watching soccer.

[Demiqas]

 

 

What's certain is that none of these issues are hardware/hardware vendor specific. Some of them are normal and are caused by aliasing and lack of proper AA, and some, like z-fighting, object pop-in, shadow flickering are game/game engine related issues. 

but that's nonsense. switching from an r9 290 to a gtx 960 solved a TON of z-fighting issues I was having in an array of games and it's the same story with my 750 ti. Since ive switched to nvidia the amount of z-fighting I have in games has been reduced drastically, which means that gpu vendors definitely do have impact on the image quality.

[MarkFMB]

@tsrbino
I've noticed it on my LED tv as well, especially on cartoons as well, but also like in sports, the lines of the pitches or commercials with stark, well defined lines on objects. As the image moves i get texture crawling and shimmering in those lines in my tv as well. But i did connect that tv to my pc when i was building it, so i very well think that's why it passed it to that tv. I'm not noticing it on other tvs or devices i connect only to the house power and not to the pc, like phones, my 3ds, other tvs etc.etc.

Are you sure those tvs and your pc had no contact whatsoever? Like external hard disks for movies you plug in the pc and the tv alike? phone recharging via usb on pc and on tv? headphones? Some computer engineer friends of mine told me that in the remote case it is a rootkit, it could just spread through any usb or cable that connected to the original source. So when changing rig you'd have to change every pheripheral as well, monitor, mouse, keyboard, headphones, router, printers, external hd etc.etc. cause a rootkit could/would infect all of them as well. That's what i aim to do in a pair of years. If then the problem disappears i at least will know it's a rootkit/hardware virus. But don't have the money to do that before another couple of years alas, spent truckloads buying a lot of sweet razer gaming stuff and i'll prolly just have to burn it in a pair of years or something, some people with our problem sell their stuff instead of disposing of it, but that's just not right... not keen on the idea something i'm selling as working could cause this shit to someone else. If then the problem still persists, the power grid option could be a thing... but that to be honest sounds a bit too much paranoid and even i am not keen on counting that among the options yet... Also cause power grids connect externally too, so that wouldn't explain why other houses near yours are not afftected as well...

Also some tvs have aliasing problems of their own. You can just see it in tvs on display in technology shops etc.etc. So unless it's as drastic as it is on your pc it could just very well be the tv's own nature sometimes.

[MarkFMB]

Alas i think this problem is limited to a very few users, that's why often people think we're "mad or paranoid" and discharge our claims at best as those of perfectionists or newbies even when some of us have decades of experience in pc building, gaming and software/hardware tweaking.

I wish and at the same time wish not this became more widespread fast in the future. From a selfish point of view if it did become more widespread, a lot more torubleshooting and fixing would be put in it and big software/hardware houses would be forced to stop ignoring it as well... but at the same time i don't want fellow gamers to suffer from this horrible disease. Best solution for me would just be next generation of hardware being immune from whatever causes this shit and/or the root cause being discovered so i can just avoid it in the future when building new rigs... that way no one gets screwed and we unlucky ones have a way out of the problem. Not hoping in a fix anymore. I've learned to spend more hours in tweaking settings to make games look decent than actual hours in playing the game often, at least i can enjoy gaming again after a pair of months of total depression and low mood (luckily i'm a wargamer as well, so i played some tabletop warmachine/warhammer in that period to keep my spirits up).

At this point reporting the problems and its symptoms in the hope some tech savvy genius comes up with something is the only thing i think we can do.

[FruitBasketSilex]

If you read the post you'd know the problem sticks even if you change card once you have it.

Most definitely a problem of "once you see it, you can't unsee it."

You noticed a flaw in the IQ of graphics cards, and now that you can tell it's there, you can't unsee it, and it bothers the piss out of you.

[Monarch]

but that's nonsense. switching from an r9 290 to a gtx 960 solved a TON of z-fighting issues I was having in an array of games and it's the same story with my 750 ti. Since ive switched to nvidia the amount of z-fighting I have in games has been reduced drastically, which means that gpu vendors definitely do have impact on the image quality.

 

Z-fighting is in most cases a game/game engine issue that can only be fixed by the developer.

 

 

 

That z-fighting in BF4 happens on both AMD and Nvidia hardware. 

 

 

Same thing in Skyrim.

 

If hardware and drivers cause/reduce z-fighting then it must occur very rarely. I have yet to see one instance where that happens. I've googled z-fighting and found complaints from people with both AMD and Nvidia hardware. If you can find some evidence that shows z-fighting occurring only on one side then please do share it. 

[vanished]

I don't have the ability to record and post a video of it, but perhaps I could explain it in more detail. All lines that are not perfectly horizontal or vertical have a very noticeable and pronounced stair stepping aliasing effect (one of the same symptoms as on my games).  Additionally, certain straight and often horizontal lines are doing what I can best describe as  jumping around and flashing. This happens most often with lines that are parallel with each other, such as blinds on windows, tiles on a floor, or steps on a flight of stairs. Lines like this also have a striping effect just like the temporal aliasing in my games.  Of course I am not watching raw originals of South Park and I realize that it's a pre-rendered video file. It seems like my television is now rendering the image this way.  It doesn't just happen with cartoons but definitely happens more often and is more noticeable with cartoons. By the way, every television in the house is showing this and yes I did test my pc with an actual computer monitor, which made no difference. And my televisions are not smart TVs and are not connected to a network. This seems to perhaps point to some electrical problem. I'm not the only person noticing this while watching tv. In another forum a member said he was noticing this on televisions in his home too, often noticing it on the goal nets when watching soccer.

That's very interesting.  If other devices entirely like TVs are doing it, and if it is happening with video as well as 3D rendered objects, that suggests that not only is this vendor agnostic (as we've determined), but in fact it's not even specific to video cards or 3D rendering at all.  In fact, it's not even specific to computers.  If it is in fact the same issue everyone else has been having in games, and not a similar but unrelated matter, we just broadened our scope a whole lot more.  Like you said, since it's every device in your house it would seem to suggest an electrical problem.  Honestly I can't imagine how that could possibly be the issue, but I'm no expert on how faulty power could affect different components so I suppose its possible.  Bottom line, it suggests that the issue is caused by some lower level, common concept that applies to all forms of digital media these days, like resolution.  We need another expert update @MageTank

[MageTank]

That's very interesting.  If other devices entirely like TVs are doing it, and if it is happening with video as well as 3D rendered objects, that suggests that not only is this vendor agnostic (as we've determined), but in fact it's not even specific to video cards or 3D rendering at all.  In fact, it's not even specific to computers.  If it is in fact the same issue everyone else has been having in games, and not a similar but unrelated matter, we just broadened our scope a whole lot more.  Like you said, since it's every device in your house it would seem to suggest an electrical problem.  Honestly I can't imagine how that could possibly be the issue, but I'm no expert on how faulty power could affect different components so I suppose its possible.  Bottom line, it suggests that the issue is caused by some lower level, common concept that applies to all forms of digital media these days, like resolution.  We need another expert update @MageTank

I am honestly stumped. If i had to guess, i would assume there is a problem with the Coax splitter (if they have one) causing a problem. We had an issue here at my home where we had some impedance issues caused by our coax splitter. Once he replaced it with a new one, the issue went away. I would try to replace all of the Coax cables in the homes, and the splitters (They are fairly cheap, we got them for $5 a piece from Radioshack, if he can find one) or call a technician from the cable company to do it for him. Have him check the cables coming from the pole, maybe even ask him to switch the node he is on if at all possible. The fact that it is also effecting his computer could also mean its the Modem itself. A technician will be able to test the signals and impedance levels throughout the house to determine where the problem is. That would honestly be my only guess.

[Zathel]

I think it should be a good idea to change the title of this thread

[MarkFMB]

 

That z-fighting in BF4 happens on both AMD and Nvidia hardware. 

 

 

I see some bad flickering/shimmering on weapon and objects as well, not only terrain. Dunno if you see it too or not. I get similar flickering effects but most noticeably shimmering and texture crawling on any game and videos i play.

I forgot to mention when talking about what i tried to do, that i even tried the integrated intel video card, ran some basic games that it could manage and/or videos. Same issues.

[Monarch]

I see some bad flickering/shimmering on weapon and objects as well, not only terrain. Dunno if you see it too or not. I get similar flickering effects but most noticeably shimmering and texture crawling on any game and videos i play.

I forgot to mention when talking of what i tried to do, that i even tried the integrated intel video card, ran some basic games that it could manage and/or videos. Same issues.

 

Terrain flickering is z-fighting, weapon and object shimmering is shader/specular aliasing afaik. BF4 has only MSAA, which combats only geometric aliasing.

[leandrocm86]

As I already mentioned in the OP, it has been disfunctional since the release of the 400 series cards. It doesn't do anything anymore. One guy over at the geforce forums made a modded driver with functioning LOD bias (said it was only a matter of minutes to get it working) and that made the image look really smooth again, just like in the first picture.

I finally had the time to read the LOD bias thread you mentioned in the first pages. I'm also quite confident that is our problem. However I still wasn't successful with the patched DLL in Project Cars. Maybe I just didn't use it right, so I'm waiting for an answer in that topic.

 

As MEC-777 said before, I think it's normal that our perception of shimmering and jagged edges are greater when AA is more needed, which may be the case with these very detailed modern games running on our huge modern screens. In fact, I noticed that AA and DSR do help, but not nearly enough to make us forget these issues. What makes me think we have a special problem is the level of aliasing we are experiencing, which is way above one could call normal. I'm actually surprised this issue is not more popular than it is. Maybe this cannot even be called an aliasing problem, since it's not just about jaggedness, but a weird behavior in the pixels bordering textures.

 

The Dark Souls video brought by Zathel did not look as bad as the previous ones I saw in this topic, but maybe that could be due to loss of details in the compression. If that is not the case, than it could be a normal aliasing problem, and indeed TAA could be enough to get rid of it. That wasn't enough to save GTA V for me though.

[Miguel Batista]

Ok. First things first:

Where are the people who have this problem from? Is it US mainly? Asia? Europe?

Now I don't have this problem myself but for those who do, have you tried flashing all the bioses and things like that? Even modems should be flashed and see if the problem persists.

I find it very intriguing that graphics cards that work well on a shstem stop working when placed on a system that is already compromised.

How is your gpu utilisation?

How old is your electrical system?

How do you connect to the internet?

What kind of port do you use for display?

It seems the problem is less noticeable in recorded videos so the display connection can be at fault. Is there a difference from recording through shadowplay and fraps?

Cmon people feed us data. And before we go into tvs (I mean digital signal corruption is a bitch! The minimal interference through heat or other electronics can make a lot of difference) lets focus on the pc side of things.

To those with working and not working systems, what is different between those systems?

[vanished]

I thought of a way we should be able to prove or disprove the "bad power" theory.  Take a computer that is experiencing this problem and instead run it on a high quality UPS.  Does the problem remain?  I want to know