Low image quality on newer GPUs

[xAcid9]

Guys I think you all went off topic.

 

The problem was nVidia Gpus having good image quality for a while and then degrading for no apparent reason.

 

Talking about DSR, VSR, downsampling or whatever is off topic. The OP claims that nVidia's cards lose image quality during their lifespan, nothing to do with what you are talking about.

 

But OP failed to provide more concrete evidence or something replicable so we can all test and compare it ourself.

I thought this thread is about proving and not blindly accepting what he claimed.

 

Don't tell me to read 95 pages thread in Nvidia forum btw, i fell asleep while reading 170+ pages of 900 series low GPU usage thread there.

[Akeax]

Wow, I thought the aliasing was actually normal, I didn't know it's actually an issue seeing as how even consoles have it. But I do legitimately believe it's paranoia to believe that the hardware actually transmitted a supervirus to your PC, your friends' PC's or even consoles according to the 95-paged thread. But I do find the poor LOD in games to be pretty annoying especially in Witcher 3 where shadow pop-in is ridiculous. Afraid I'm unable to help though, I only have one of each component and only WIndows 8.1.

[BrightCandle]

I don't recall what antialiasing options heaven allows but this is sounding more and more just like an antialiasing issue. It's worth noting that msaa only works with geometry not with shaders, so shadows and ambient occulsion especially won't be anti aliased by it so it will have temporal anomalies.

Fxaa and other post processing antialiasing techniques can't fix this problem very well and while txaa sort of tries it ultimately just doesn't have the solution.

I am not seeing anything but the usual temporal anti aliasing issues in these videos.

[MEC-777]

Wrong guy. @Demiqas started the thread, so only he or a mod can change the title. 

 

However, I do agree with you. I've tested this issue on as many Nvidia GPU's as i could, from several generations, and all of them have these "problems". However, none of it feels game breaking to me. I even tested it on a couple of my AMD laptops (A8 laptops with hybrid crossfire solutions using the 7670m) and even my oldest desktop AMD GPU (The ATI Radeon 2400 pro) and it suffers from the same problem. I've done clean installs of windows 7 and 10, both have the same problem too, so its not WDDM related at all. Had my brother test on both Debian and Gentoo, same problems. 

 

This tells me it is not a vendor thing. It is also not an API thing, or an OS thing. It has to be caused by the user. Either some software they are running in the background is making it more apparent, or maybe some of their downloads is getting corrupted to cause anomalies, i don't know. All i know is, what i see now is the same thing i've seen for years, and it's not really a problem for me. It could very well be subjective. Maybe some people are more sensitive to it than others, but it's never been an issue for me. I still game on a 1600x900 screen, i don't run DSR or OGSSAA, and I get by just fine. In fact, the MMO i currently play (Elder Scrolls Online) has none of these graphical issues that i see from others, on any of the cards i've ran. I am going to go ahead and call this case closed. It has to be the software at fault, or the user. Unless someone can point me towards some clear evidence stating otherwise. 

 

My bad on the thread title. My mistake, disregard.

 

I'm not seeing anything besides "normal" graphical anomalies. (Aliasing jaggies, etc.) Plain and simple. 

 

I don't know, maybe because you're using different preset on both SS and i think you set Smoothness in Nvidia CP too high.

 

From your screenshots, cropped and zoom in 2x. 

Left: 1080p Right: 4K DSR

The hill especially the trees lost more of it details compare to your 1080p screenshot.

Btw did you enabled in-game Sharpening in your 1080p and disabled it in 4K DSR? 

 

 

 

I took a couple of screenshots at 1080p and 1800p for comparison.

Icanonlyuse1800pbecauseAMDtoldmemycarddon'thavethehardwaretodo4KVSRwhichisbull. 

 

Max in-game setting with sharpening disabled. Open in new tab for full glory.

1080p

1800p resized to 1080p

1800p

 

 

Now if i zoom in 2x and crop the image,

You can see the 1800p give more details which is noticeable on the ground, the path and the roof.

 

The only thing I changed when I switched from 1080p to 4k DSR is that 1080p was with Ultra settings, everything maxed (ultra preset) and 4k DSR was at high preset - just so the frame rate wouldn't tank too badly. I believe sharpening was left enabled for both screen shots I took. I can go back and double check the video to be sure, but I'm 90% sure it was never turned off.

 

In your first cropped image sample you provided - taken from the screens I posted, the difference in distant objects I find minimal and not as "noticeable". Now, looking at the image quality of closer objects ( the grass and bushes nearby and ahead of Gerald, his hair, etc.) looks like a pixelated mess to me, compared to the 4k DSR image.

 

In Nvidia CP I have the DSR sharpness/smoothness set to 25% (lower value being more "sharp" (default is 33%)). I have not experimented with turning this to more sharp or more smooth to see just how much of a difference it makes, but I think I will give it a try and see.

 

From looking at your screen shots as well, it confirms and I still stand by my opinion that the VSR/DSR images still look better than the native 1080p images. It's somewhat subjective, I understand, but to me the differences are pretty clear. 

 

I don't recall what antialiasing options heaven allows but this is sounding more and more just like an antialiasing issue. It's worth noting that msaa only works with geometry not with shaders, so shadows and ambient occulsion especially won't be anti aliased by it so it will have temporal anomalies.

Fxaa and other post processing antialiasing techniques can't fix this problem very well and while txaa sort of tries it ultimately just doesn't have the solution.

I am not seeing anything but the usual temporal anti aliasing issues in these videos.

 

^This. If you really want to kill most or all aliasing, use DSR/VSR.

[MEC-777]

Guys I think you all went off topic.

 

The problem was nVidia Gpus having good image quality for a while and then degrading for no apparent reason.

 

Talking about DSR, VSR, downsampling or whatever is off topic. The OP claims that nVidia's cards lose image quality during their lifespan, nothing to do with what you are talking about.

 

The thing is; people have claimed to be experiencing the same graphical "anomalies" on AMD GPUs/iGPUs and Intel iGPUs as well. That rules out the possibility that this is an issue exclusive to Nvidia GPUs only. 

 

It's looking more and more like people have become paranoid and started seeing things that were there all along, yet now have become a "problem" or "issue" when they really aren't. The power of suggestion can be EXTREMELY persuasive and make people see or believe things that aren't real. 

 

I have yet to see ANYTHING in any example put forward that is beyond a "normal" graphical anomaly (like aliasing/jaggies). There's been somewhat of a consensus in this very thread, with a number of members who have reached, more or less, this same conclusion. 

 

I'm not saying you're lying or that there isn't a real/true underlying issue that exists, I just have yet to see any solid evidence supporting the claim(s).

[VagabondWraith]

The top pic is 1080p ultra, everything maxed, including hairworks, HBAO+. It hovered in the 50's most of the time.

How would it run on a 980 Ti ultra/hairworks? I have this game but haven't played since launch.

[don_svetlio]

How would it run on a 980 Ti ultra/hairworks? I have this game but haven't played since launch.

60fps more or less - you NEED a 980 Ti to run Hairworks

[MEC-777]

How would it run on a 980 Ti ultra/hairworks? I have this game but haven't played since launch.

 

Around 60fps, absolutely maxed. +/- It's one of the most demanding games out there right now.

[Praesi]

Around 60fps, absolutely maxed. +/- It's one of the most demanding games out there right now.

Ingame Graphics Options aren not the limit. I pushed the Graphics way beyond via Ini tweaks.

[Michaelm542]

So, i really wish i could show you this witcher 3 footage to show off the affects of the issue in game to the point where its really bad for me.... but im having difficulties uploading it for some reason.  Tried youtube and dropbox, tried shadowplay and using obs with my i7 4790k. original recording files show of the issue perfectly and look fine but when i upload its... terrible

[Michaelm542]

Tried using a different internet connection with good upload speed and its the same

[Michaelm542]

im not sure... it shows what im talking about but somehow in the vid its even more apparent ? staitc ? try watching at 1080 p and 720 p a couple seconds in it clears up enough to see how it is in game. ... that being said im going to keep trying , maybe recording at 30 fps will upload better idk. Problem after problem .  

[Michaelm542]

Basically thats how it looks in game but its even worse in the video around geralt. ... and im getting some sound issues to 

[Michaelm542]

here... some screenshots of the original vid file playing on my pc. You can still see it i believe, obviously not as good as it is in motion.  Static everywhere... although the vid once uploaded pronounces it more. occasional staticy sound in game even ? so confusing. It never had the sound issue until before this point. maybe unrelated but... yeah .  Here are the screenshots. 

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1kqm88mmr7mm5js/Screenshot%202015-12-10%2006.46.56.png?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zjugh7hi65da3wu/Screenshot%202015-12-10%2006.47.00.png?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/exxa4i32zq73yz3/Screenshot%202015-12-10%2006.47.01.png?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/oz6xua9d3phhqu1/Screenshot%202015-12-10%2006.47.02.png?dl=0

[Michaelm542]

glimmering on the trees, the loss of quality in the whole game basically to some degree... i mean yes, running it at 4k dsr does help. but even then its apparent in the trees and shrubbery and shadows. 

[Michaelm542]

everything that is in motion has that static glimmer quality to it, even moving characters... although not to such a degree, shadows are jagged and as i said, move around very quickly for no real reason and "flicker" as well.  .. its very bad and definitely did not have this issue before. More noticable in lighted areas, less noticeable at night or in dark areas

[MEC-777]

Ingame Graphics Options aren not the limit. I pushed the Graphics way beyond via Ini tweaks.

 

@VagabondWraith didn't ask about running the game with ini tweaks.

 

So, i really wish i could show you this witcher 3 footage to show off the affects of the issue in game to the point where its really bad for me.... but im having difficulties uploading it for some reason.  Tried youtube and dropbox, tried shadowplay and using obs with my i7 4790k. original recording files show of the issue perfectly and look fine but when i upload its... terrible

 

Shadowplay seems to work fine for me. Provides fairly clear recordings and they still look good after uploading to YT. Even at 1080p60fps.

 

here... some screenshots of the original vid file playing on my pc. You can still see it i believe, obviously not as good as it is in motion.  Static everywhere... although the vid once uploaded pronounces it more. occasional staticy sound in game even ? so confusing. It never had the sound issue until before this point. maybe unrelated but... yeah .  Here are the screenshots. 

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1kqm88mmr7mm5js/Screenshot%202015-12-10%2006.46.56.png?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zjugh7hi65da3wu/Screenshot%202015-12-10%2006.47.00.png?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/exxa4i32zq73yz3/Screenshot%202015-12-10%2006.47.01.png?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/oz6xua9d3phhqu1/Screenshot%202015-12-10%2006.47.02.png?dl=0

 

Ok, I'm seeing several things here that I don't see in my game with similar settings. I can see a "grid" like effect, small squares all over the place. I'm seeing bad/poor textures and really bad aliasing. 

 

Can you list your exact graphics and postprocessing settings you were running when you took these screen shots?

 

I noticed that with sharpness at max, the image quality was horrible and much more "grainy". With sharpness off, the image looked WAY better - almost 4k DSR better. By the looks of those screenshots, you were running no AA and sharpness at full - the combination of which made for a pretty ugly looking game, based on my own testing. Try it with AA enabled and sharpness turned off. Take some more screens and post them up so we can compare. 

[Michaelm542]

Hello, if you don't mind looking back into my previous posts you will see my situation and rig info in my first in this forum.  it was 1080 p medium in that vid i believe and your correct, the aa was off and sharpness up. I discovered when i went into settings. and changed the sharpness to medium , hairworks is off, 1080 p ultra preset this time around and aa on. Still seeing the same issues really. Maybe a little less ? well, here are the screenshots. 

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/spylhr5hzi2nhr7/2015-12-10_00038.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1q99oa05veork15/2015-12-10_00039.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2gcccgc3piarmsn/2015-12-10_00040.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fltdg4gapt44h9o/2015-12-10_00042.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7qlfktp3pt2rxsh/2015-12-10_00043.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7qlfktp3pt2rxsh/2015-12-10_00043.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1yoqkxct701ns21/2015-12-10_00044.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/24rwtym6yxfriki/2015-12-10_00045.jpg?dl=0

[leandrocm86]

Guys, for what I've read and for what I experienced myself it seems to be 2 common issues, which may or may not be related.

The first one is the flickering, which is quite noticeable in the Heaven Benchmark videos you uploaded and also on the Assassin's Creed one. I myself had terrible issues with flickering in GTA V, and that's why I ended up in Nvidia forum and now here.

 

The second problem is the terrible jagged lines no matter how much AA you apply. I noticed that on GTA V also, and now in Project Cars. I've read you guys saying that DSR would be better and etc, but I don't thing this level of aliasing is normal. Look at a screenshot I took in PCars:

 

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/393300969321029500/93EE0BB30471751ABA49CE9966EF9DC426D03F33/

 

I apply lots of AA in the games and that should result in better results than this, even if DSR would be better. When the image is moving it's even worse, because the lines become very distractive. Actually, in GTA V I don't even have to move to see the border pixels dancing around, which is very odd. Only the flickering is restricted to movement.

The pictures Demiqas uploaded in the 2 first pages look a lot like this problem I had on the picture above. I'm still gonna read the articles about LOD bias, but that's a problem we shouldn't have at all. I have a GTX970 and applied MSAA on Project Cars. In GTA V I use TXAA and FXAA. These AA modes help a little of course, but it's still unacceptable.

[MEC-777]

Hello, if you don't mind looking back into my previous posts you will see my situation and rig info in my first in this forum.  it was 1080 p medium in that vid i believe and your correct, the aa was off and sharpness up. I discovered when i went into settings. and changed the sharpness to medium , hairworks is off, 1080 p ultra preset this time around and aa on. Still seeing the same issues really. Maybe a little less ? well, here are the screenshots. 

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/spylhr5hzi2nhr7/2015-12-10_00038.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1q99oa05veork15/2015-12-10_00039.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2gcccgc3piarmsn/2015-12-10_00040.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fltdg4gapt44h9o/2015-12-10_00042.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7qlfktp3pt2rxsh/2015-12-10_00043.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7qlfktp3pt2rxsh/2015-12-10_00043.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1yoqkxct701ns21/2015-12-10_00044.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/24rwtym6yxfriki/2015-12-10_00045.jpg?dl=0

 

Yeah, there's your "problem". You had no AA and sharpness turned up. That is going to result in very poor image quality with a lot of aliasing anomalies (flickering white jaggies - especially during movement)

 

With AA on and sharpness reduced, those screen shots now look much better IMO. I'm not seeing the tiling effect anymore and textures/edges of objects are more clear. The overall image quality is much better. 

 

Something else you should try to further improve image quality: Go into Nvidia control panel. Go to Manage 3D settings and go under the "Global" tab. Set Antistropic filtering to x16 and texture filtering to quality. 

 

I firmly believe that what you are referring to as being an issue is actually not an issue, but actually a normal visual result of the combination of graphics settings and the resolution. It is an issue in the sense that it doesn't look very good, but consequently, this is the best the image can be rendered in the given game engine with the given graphical settings. 

 

Guys, for what I've read and for what I experienced myself it seems to be 2 common issues, which may or may not be related.

The first one is the flickering, which is quite noticeable in the Heaven Benchmark videos you uploaded and also on the Assassin's Creed one. I myself had terrible issues with flickering in GTA V, and that's why I ended up in Nvidia forum and now here.

 

The second problem is the terrible jagged lines no matter how much AA you apply. I noticed that on GTA V also, and now in Project Cars. I've read you guys saying that DSR would be better and etc, but I don't thing this level of aliasing is normal. Look at a screenshot I took in PCars:

 

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/393300969321029500/93EE0BB30471751ABA49CE9966EF9DC426D03F33/

 

I apply lots of AA in the games and that should result in better results than this, even if DSR would be better. When the image is moving it's even worse, because the lines become very distractive. Actually, in GTA V I don't even have to move to see the border pixels dancing around, which is very odd. Only the flickering is restricted to movement.

The pictures Demiqas uploaded in the 2 first pages look a lot like this problem I had on the picture above. I'm still gonna read the articles about LOD bias, but that's a problem we shouldn't have at all. I have a GTX970 and applied MSAA on Project Cars. In GTA V I use TXAA and FXAA. These AA modes help a little of course, but it's still unacceptable.

 

See my reply to the person above. 

 

Have you tried running these games using DSR? It won't necessarily completely remove all aliasing (jaggies) but it should significantly reduce them. There's only so much AA that can be applied to a 1080p image (even with DSR) before it starts to just look fuzzy. There is a level compromise you must live with at 1080p. Softer image or sharper image with some aliasing. It's just the nature of the thing. No amount of AA will completely remove all aliasing visual effects and it depends on what type the game applies and/or how the game applies it, as to how effective it will be. 

 

In Project Cars, no matter how much AA I apply, I see those same white flickering jaggies on the edges of the car when viewed in the garage - just like the screenshot you posted. And I'm running the game at 1440p with DSR. That is just the nature of the game. That is simply the best it can be rendered on a 1080p display with those settings. It's not a "problem" so much, but rather just the best it can be. It's not a problem with the GPU either. You'll notice when you're in a race, you don't really see those jaggies at all on the vehicle because the background is much brighter vs a black background with the car sitting under virtual show room lights.

 

As I've stated several times before, many of the visual anomalies people have been describing as "issues" or "problems" are normal visual anomalies caused by the level of detail being rendered subject to the resolution and pixel density at 1080p. I'm also going go out on a limb here and make the claim that the only way to nearly completely eliminate most these visual issues/anomalies is to go with a higher resolution display (1440p or 2160p).

[maxrosciano]

here... some screenshots of the original vid file playing on my pc. You can still see it i believe, obviously not as good as it is in motion.  Static everywhere... although the vid once uploaded pronounces it more. occasional staticy sound in game even ? so confusing. It never had the sound issue until before this point. maybe unrelated but... yeah .  Here are the screenshots. 

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1kqm88mmr7mm5js/Screenshot%202015-12-10%2006.46.56.png?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zjugh7hi65da3wu/Screenshot%202015-12-10%2006.47.00.png?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/exxa4i32zq73yz3/Screenshot%202015-12-10%2006.47.01.png?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/oz6xua9d3phhqu1/Screenshot%202015-12-10%2006.47.02.png?dl=0

 

Turn down the sharpening

[Demiqas]

snip

you took the time to write all of that but no time to read anything dicussed here. If this was as simple as a "combination of settings" or "turning up the AA" we wouldn't have needed this thread in the first place. It's also not the "nature of the game", the two screenshots in the OP should be enough to prove that. All that was done was an increase in the LOD bias and most of the shimmering and AA was gone. Now the question is, why the hell did nvidia remove the lod bias option for no apparant reason?

[MageTank]

you took the time to write all of that but no time to read anything dicussed here. If this was as simple as a "combination of settings" or "turning up the AA" we wouldn't have needed this thread in the first place. It's also not the "nature of the game", the two screenshots in the OP should be enough to prove that. All that was done was an increase in the LOD bias and most of the shimmering and AA was gone. Now the question is, why the hell did nvidia remove the lod bias option for no apparant reason?

Which LOD bias option are you talking about? The "Texture Filtering - Negative LOD bias"? Because I still have that option on the latest Nvidia drivers, and i've never lost it. 

[Demiqas]

Which LOD bias option are you talking about? The "Texture Filtering - Negative LOD bias"? Because I still have that option on the latest Nvidia drivers, and i've never lost it. 

As I already mentioned in the OP, it has been disfunctional since the release of the 400 series cards. It doesn't do anything anymore. One guy over at the geforce forums made a modded driver with functioning LOD bias (said it was only a matter of minutes to get it working) and that made the image look really smooth again, just like in the first picture.

[MageTank]

As I already mentioned in the OP, it has been disfunctional since the release of the 400 series cards. It doesn't do anything anymore. One guy over at the geforce forums made a modded driver with functioning LOD bias (said it was only a matter of minutes to get it working) and that made the image look really smooth again, just like in the first picture.

Then this begs the question, how is it that both Nvidia and AMD end up having the exact same problem, and neither have fixed it themselves? If you do some digging, you will find people with AMD cards suffering the same fate. It just seems highly unlikely, unless they both had a reason for turning it off without telling people. Even then, one would think they would remove the option all together if it did nothing.