Low image quality on newer GPUs

[xAcid9]

Ok, here's my Heaven test run. 

 

-snip-

 

Now, can someone please tell me what the actual issue is? What is it that you're all seeing or not seeing? Is anyone else as confused as I am? 

In his Heaven video he circled the pavement, you can see the texture kinda blurry and flicker-ish? Look like a poor texture filtering/anti-aliasing job.

 

You need to run it with Tessellation disabled.

 

Hello again everyone, I'm back finally...i finished redownloading the witcher 3 and its obviously very apparent in game... uploaded a clip but unfortunately youtube encoding screwed up and its out of focus and stuff. will reupload soon.  But, its a good game to see the full extent of the issue if anyone wants to try and test it. ... i shall return lol. 

 

Mind upload the "uncompressed" to Mega/GDrive/DBox? Youtube compression alone will make it look like shit.

[MageTank]

So, I've been following this and a few things are apparent.

1. Most importantly, we're actually making headway towards determining what exactly is going on
2. In 8 pages here there's been a lot more progress than in 95 on the nvidia forum, and that's including the fighting
3. It is apparent that this is not an nvidia-specific issue

With regard to #3, why then did nvidia go to such lengths to try and bury this by hiding the thread and deleting posts, etc. when they could have just had an expert reply and clarify that it is not their problem (or at least not theirs alone)?  It's awfully incriminating, and seemingly unnecessary...

Part of the problem is that the thread discussing the problems not only knew what was going on in the first place (They were all over the place with what the "problem" was) but also because the thread was very old. Several months old. Maybe they thought hiding it would prevent people from thinking it was some recent issue causing it? I have no idea really, but until i see specific proof that it is an Nvidia only problem (Heaven has the same "anomalies" with both AMD and Nvidia", i am going to treat this as some sort of API or OS issue.

[Michaelm542]

yeah that is fine... im downloading the dropbox software now.  upload will probably take awhile even for a short clip. But ill get it done

[MEC-777]

and to answer your question Mech, as i said in my post, there is a "static" like quality to textures, especially on moving objects, and when the camera is moving or character is moving in a game. If you watch my heaven bench vid in 1080 p with the screen full size you should be able to see it. Look at the ground tiles glimmering and flickering and out of focus as well as the buildings and the railings on the blimp.  As far as showing you in a game, im working on it atm. My upload speed is terrible but hopefully ill have a good vid on youtube by tonight of the witcher 3. in which all the tree's and such are completely messed up.  As to the exact cause of the issue I really have no clue. Im not to experienced in this type of thing. But its certainly a noticeable problem to the point where it ruins the gameplay experience. 

In his Heaven video he circled the pavement, you can see the texture kinda blurry and flicker-ish? Look like a poor texture filtering/anti-aliasing job.

 

You need to run it with Tessellation disabled.

 

 

Mind upload the "uncompressed" to Mega/GDrive/DBox? Youtube compression alone will make it look like shit.

 

Ok, thanks for clarifying/explaining. So there are several "effects" or "anomalies" (glitches/errors) at question here. It certainly helps to know what, specifically I'm supposed to be looking for.

 

When I run Heaven with tessellation disabled, I get that same "flickering" on the stone pathway. 

 

I'll fire up Witcher 3 and see if I observe some of the other mentioned anomalies. Will report back.

[MEC-777]

and to answer your question Mech, as i said in my post, there is a "static" like quality to textures, especially on moving objects, and when the camera is moving or character is moving in a game. If you watch my heaven bench vid in 1080 p with the screen full size you should be able to see it. Look at the ground tiles glimmering and flickering and out of focus as well as the buildings and the railings on the blimp.  As far as showing you in a game, im working on it atm. My upload speed is terrible but hopefully ill have a good vid on youtube by tonight of the witcher 3. in which all the tree's and such are completely messed up.  As to the exact cause of the issue I really have no clue. Im not to experienced in this type of thing. But its certainly a noticeable problem to the point where it ruins the gameplay experience. 

 

Ok, I just made some very interesting observations while running and testing the Witcher 3. When I ran the game at 1080p max settings, yes, I saw those "anomalies" that you speak of. Here's what I believe is going on: It's simply the image quality that results from the combination of the resolution, number/density of the fine/sharp objects being rendered vs the pixel density of the display. With a 1080p display, the pixels are only so small and the image can only be rendered to a certain degree of sharpness. Take into account how many fine/sharp objects are in a scene on the country side in the witcher 3 - you've got thousands of blades of grass and even more needle textures on hundreds of branches on all the trees. Even with the heaviest/strongest forms of AA filtering available, it still has to render all this to fit a 1080p resolution. 

 

Now here's where things get interesting, and this is one of the reason what I advocate for people to use DSR/VSR so much. When I switched the resolution to 4K DSR, the image quality improved drastically. The "graininess" of the image (grass, pine needles, Gerald's outfit) pretty much disappears! The only odd thing I noticed was some light flickering of the chain male on Gerald's armor. Aside from that, the game looks WAAAY better at 4k with DSR on a 1080p display than it does at native 1080p.

 

So to summarize: I think many of us are simply getting so used to the 1080p resolution and it's simply starting to look "sub-par" by today's standards. testing the witcher 3 at 1080p today, reminded me of why I've been using DSR/VSR 99% of the time now while gaming. 1080p native just looks... bleh, IMO. I recorded the footage starting off on ultra 1080p and then switching to 4k DSR. Will upload tonight and post the video here tomorrow. If any of you have beefy GPUs (970 or 290/390+) feel free to give VSR/DSR a try and post up if you think it makes a difference/helps reduce or eliminate some/all of the issues in question.

[App4that]

Ok, I just made some very interesting observations while running and testing the Witcher 3. When I ran the game at 1080p max settings, yes, I saw those "anomalies" that you speak of. Here's what I believe is going on: It's simply the image quality that results from the combination of the resolution, number/density of the fine/sharp objects being rendered vs the pixel density of the display. With a 1080p display, the pixels are only so small and the image can only be rendered to a certain degree of sharpness. Take into account how many fine/sharp objects are in a scene on the country side in the witcher 3 - you've got thousands of blades of grass and even more needle textures on hundreds of branches on all the trees. Even with the heaviest/strongest forms of AA filtering available, it still has to render all this to fit a 1080p resolution. 

 

Now here's where things get interesting, and this is one of the reason what I advocate for people to use DSR/VSR so much. When I switched the resolution to 4K DSR, the image quality improved drastically. The "graininess" of the image (grass, pine needles, Gerald's outfit) pretty much disappears! The only odd thing I noticed was some light flickering of the chain male on Gerald's armor. Aside from that, the game looks WAAAY better at 4k with DSR on a 1080p display than it does at native 4K.

 

So to summarize: I think many of us are simply getting used to the 1080p resolution and it's simply starting to look "sub-par" by today's standards. testing the witcher 3 at 1080p today, reminded me of why I've been using DSR/VSR 99% of the time now while gaming. 1080p native just looks... bleh, IMO. I recorded the footage starting off on ultra 1080p and then switching to 4k DSR. Will upload to night and post the video here tomorrow. If any of you have beefy GPUs (970 or 290/390+) feel free to give VSR/DSR a try and post up if you think it makes a difference/helps reduce or eliminate some/all of the issues in question.

I'm converted to VSR, I even use it on my desk top now. Takes some tinkering to get it right and you have to give up on your desktop icon ever being where you left them, but it's worth it.

[Benji_w]

Anti Aliasing? Idk the top looks more warm and fuzzy while the bottom looks sharper and jagged edges. Probably older games made for DX10 and 9 and Nvidia being lazy

 

You can enable that fancy feature in the nvidia experience thingy that makes older games look nicer, i did a back to back comparison with my old 6870 with FEAR 1 and it looks nicer on the 970.

[MEC-777]

To save time here's two screenshots I took. Top is 1080p Ultra and the bottom is 4k w/DSR High preset. Make sure you expand/download and view them at full resolution for the full effect.

 

 

[MEC-777]

I'm converted to VSR, I even use it on my desk top now. Takes some tinkering to get it right and you have to give up on your desktop icon ever being where you left them, but it's worth it.

 

Welcome to the wonderful world of super resolution down-sampling.

 

Just FYI, I spotted an error in something I said in the post you quoted. I edited it in the original post, but just in case someone misses it; I meant to say "Aside from that, the game looks WAAAY better at 4k with DSR on a 1080p display than it does at native 1080p." (not native 4k )

[App4that]

To save time here's two screenshots I took. Top is 1080p Ultra and the bottom is 4k w/DSR High preset. Make sure you expand/download and view them at full resolution for the full effect.

 

Is that with the 980? Not trying to start anything but I get a solid 60 with the 390. What settings is that? (1080 pic)

[BuckGup]

No, this happens in every single game and application. It has nothing to do with age of the games. Yes nvidia has a bad rep, I've been in the gaming buisiness for a while aswell. But this is seriously an all new low to hide our thread and delete our posts.

 

 

Read what I've said above. This happens in every single game and application and even happens on OpenGL games. It has nothing to do with DX. I WISH it was only that, I'd be happily gaming now.

I don't have an issue

[MEC-777]

Is that with the 980? Not trying to start anything but I get a solid 60 with the 390. What settings is that? (1080 pic)

 

The top pic is 1080p ultra, everything maxed, including hairworks, HBAO+. It hovered in the 50's most of the time.  

[App4that]

The top pic is 1080p ultra, everything maxed, including hairworks, HBAO+. It hovered in the 50's most of the time.  

That explains it. Real ball buster that.

[tsrbino]

Ok, I want to clarify a few things for the people on this forum that are trying to help but are not that familiar with the issue. Yes I know that some people don't like me referring to this as a "problem" or an "issue" but I don't know what else to call it, so please don't be concerned with semantics. Also I want to thank everyone on here who is trying to help us understand this.

 

-This is present on AMD, Nvidia, and mobo integrated intel gpus.

-I have built new pcs with all new components and it has not helped.

-In my last build I used an AMD r7 260x instead of NVidia 900 series which I had previously used. Demiqas said that he did not have the issue on his r7 260x, but it actually seems worse for me.

-The symptoms include texture and model pop in, shadow rendering issues, and what seems like a complete loss of any form of aa.

-The problem seems to come on suddenly and then sticks around indefinitely, seeming to actually get worse over time.

-It is not a case of just now noticing things that were not noticed before.  Most pc users do not have these issues, something I can personally attest to from observing the same games run on the same series gpu on different pcs.  I realize that pop in and aliasing are common and perfectly normal in games, but not on this level, especially when games that I've been playing for years suddenly look like this.

-Changing the graphical settings in game or Nvidia control panel or AMD Catalyst Control Center does not improve any of these symptoms.  Changing to a different method of aa does nothing because aa seems to be broken to the point of nonexistence.

 

OK, now I will list some related things that I have found reported on the internet when trying to research this. I cannot attest to the truth of the following statements since I have not directly experienced them, but at the same time they should not be written off as definite untruths.

 

-These same issues have been reported as happening on both xbox one and playstation 4. I even found some apparent video evidence of this on youtube.

-One member of the Nvidia forum reported that when testing to see if this was a gpu issue, he installed a friend's gpu in his pc and the problem was still apparent. When that gpu was put back into his friend's pc, the problem was transferred to that computer.  Now here's where it Gets weird.  His friends xbox one, which had not had any contact with either of the computers other than being plugged into an electrical outlet in the same house, now also had the issue.

-The problem has been reported when people tested with mac os x, Ubuntu, and all versions of windows.

-Many people who have this on their pc report seeing strange flickering and moving lines similar to temporal aliasing on their tv while watching cable.   I have actually seen this on my tv at home.

 

The fact that nobody has been successful in finding the cause of all this has produced some pretty interesting and off the wall theories. Here is a list of Some:

-something having to do with the gpu has somehow screwed up the electricity in the home.

-some kind of network virus or hardware rootkit virus.

-os incompatibility with something.

-directx issue.

 

I realize I've probably alienated myself by even mentioning some of these things, but hey....

[Praesi]

Wow. That was alot of Nonsense. But i have to say it was entertaining. Thx.

[xAcid9]

To save time here's two screenshots I took. Top is 1080p Ultra and the bottom is 4k w/DSR High preset. Make sure you expand/download and view them at full resolution for the full effect.

 

-snip-

 

-snip-

 

 

 

Why the one with 4K DSR look too blurry/washed out and 1080p one look too sharp or seem like AA filter didn't work?

[Jackiy]

Hello everyone , I have this problem for 3 years now and I changed the CPU , GPU , Motherboard and PSU . The example in the video I uploaded a few weeks ago : 

[MEC-777]

Ok, I want to clarify a few things for the people on this forum that are trying to help but are not that familiar with the issue. Yes I know that some people don't like me referring to this as a "problem" or an "issue" but I don't know what else to call it, so please don't be concerned with semantics. Also I want to thank everyone on here who is trying to help us understand this.

 

-This is present on AMD, Nvidia, and mobo integrated intel gpus.

-I have built new pcs with all new components and it has not helped.

-In my last build I used an AMD r7 260x instead of NVidia 900 series which I had previously used. Demiqas said that he did not have the issue on his r7 260x, but it actually seems worse for me.

-The symptoms include texture and model pop in, shadow rendering issues, and what seems like a complete loss of any form of aa.

-The problem seems to come on suddenly and then sticks around indefinitely, seeming to actually get worse over time.

-It is not a case of just now noticing things that were not noticed before.  Most pc users do not have these issues, something I can personally attest to from observing the same games run on the same series gpu on different pcs.  I realize that pop in and aliasing are common and perfectly normal in games, but not on this level, especially when games that I've been playing for years suddenly look like this.

-Changing the graphical settings in game or Nvidia control panel or AMD Catalyst Control Center does not improve any of these symptoms.  Changing to a different method of aa does nothing because aa seems to be broken to the point of nonexistence.

 

OK, now I will list some related things that I have found reported on the internet when trying to research this. I cannot attest to the truth of the following statements since I have not directly experienced them, but at the same time they should not be written off as definite untruths.

 

-These same issues have been reported as happening on both xbox one and playstation 4. I even found some apparent video evidence of this on youtube.

-One member of the Nvidia forum reported that when testing to see if this was a gpu issue, he installed a friend's gpu in his pc and the problem was still apparent. When that gpu was put back into his friend's pc, the problem was transferred to that computer.  Now here's where it Gets weird.  His friends xbox one, which had not had any contact with either of the computers other than being plugged into an electrical outlet in the same house, now also had the issue.

-The problem has been reported when people tested with mac os x, Ubuntu, and all versions of windows.

-Many people who have this on their pc report seeing strange flickering and moving lines similar to temporal aliasing on their tv while watching cable.   I have actually seen this on my tv at home.

 

The fact that nobody has been successful in finding the cause of all this has produced some pretty interesting and off the wall theories. Here is a list of Some:

-something having to do with the gpu has somehow screwed up the electricity in the home.

-some kind of network virus or hardware rootkit virus.

-os incompatibility with something.

-directx issue.

 

I realize I've probably alienated myself by even mentioning some of these things, but hey....

 

Ok, first off, you need to change the title of this thread. It's been known (and was very apparent within the first 2 pages of the thread on Geforce  forums) that this supposed "issue" is not exclusive to Nvidia GPUs only, but all GPUs. 

 

Secondly, a lot of what you mention is simply not possible. A GPU or graphics card cannot "transmit" anything to another PC nor another device in the home. 

 

Some serious critical thinking and common sense needs to be applied here. From what I've read/seen, thus far, I firmly believe this to be a faux issue. By that, I don't mean that no issues exist, but that the issues in question are "normal" as part of the "nature of the beast" - whether that be the result of poor game optimizations, poor driver optimizations or ? But I sit firmly on the assertion that this is not hardware-related. 

 

Why the one with 4K DSR look too blurry/washed out and 1080p one look too sharp or seem like AA filter didn't work?

 

Both effects are a result of the nature of what is being displayed and what it's being displayed on. A 1080p display only has so much pixel density and thus can only show sharpness of an image to a certain degree. This is why the image looks overly sharp and grainy at native 1080p (and if you look closer at that screen shot, you can see individual pixels - especially in the blades of grass) and softer using DSR - because it's been downsampled from a higher resolution.

 

At 1080p, AA can only do so much because the pixels/pixel density is only so small and it's starting with/applying the AA filter to an image rendered at 1080p. But with DSR the "AA effect" is stronger. It's taking a much more sharply rendered image (much higher resolution) to begin with and displaying a downsampled version of that. The effect is what you see in those screens.

Edited December 11, 2015 by Godlygamer23

[MageTank]

Ok, first off, you need to change the title of this thread. It's been known (and was very apparent within the first 2 pages of the thread on Geforce  forums) that this supposed "issue" is not exclusive to Nvidia GPUs only, but all GPUs. 

 

Secondly, a lot of what you mention is simply not possible. A GPU or graphics card cannot "transmit" anything to another PC nor another device in the home. 

 

Some serious critical thinking and common sense needs to be applied here. From what I've read/seen, thus far, I firmly believe this to be a faux issue. By that, I don't mean that no issues exist, but that the issues in question are "normal" as part of the "nature of the beast" - whether that be the result of poor game optimizations, poor driver optimizations or ? But I sit firmly on the assertion that this is not hardware-related. 

 

 

Both effects are a result of the nature of what is being displayed and what it's being displayed on. A 1080p display only has so much pixel density and thus can only show sharpness of an image to a certain degree. This is why the image looks overly sharp and grainy at native 1080p (and if you look closer at that screen shot, you can see individual pixels - especially in the blades of grass) and softer using DSR - because it's been downsampled from a higher resolution.

 

At 1080p, AA can only do so much because the pixels/pixel density is only so small and it's starting with/applying the AA filter to an image rendered at 1080p. But with DSR the "AA effect" is stronger. It's taking a much more sharply rendered image (much higher resolution) to begin with and displaying a downsampled version of that. The effect is what you see in those screens.

 

 

Even after you told us what to look at, I still see no issue. What I do see is simply the effect that is the result of a lack of AA filtering (the dancing lines/jaggies) on the window frames of the building and distant objects. Of course it's reduced when you apply 4xMSAA - that is the whole point and function of AA filtering. This visual "issue" is completely normal and to be expected at 1080p with very little or no AA filtering applied. 

 

You said, "If you look at the old folks and generally distant objects you'll see the problem very easily." Well, I'm sorry, but I don't. Can you please tell us and actually describe the issue or visual anomaly to which you are referring to?  

Wrong guy. @Demiqas started the thread, so only he or a mod can change the title. 

 

However, I do agree with you. I've tested this issue on as many Nvidia GPU's as i could, from several generations, and all of them have these "problems". However, none of it feels game breaking to me. I even tested it on a couple of my AMD laptops (A8 laptops with hybrid crossfire solutions using the 7670m) and even my oldest desktop AMD GPU (The ATI Radeon 2400 pro) and it suffers from the same problem. I've done clean installs of windows 7 and 10, both have the same problem too, so its not WDDM related at all. Had my brother test on both Debian and Gentoo, same problems. 

 

This tells me it is not a vendor thing. It is also not an API thing, or an OS thing. It has to be caused by the user. Either some software they are running in the background is making it more apparent, or maybe some of their downloads is getting corrupted to cause anomalies, i don't know. All i know is, what i see now is the same thing i've seen for years, and it's not really a problem for me. It could very well be subjective. Maybe some people are more sensitive to it than others, but it's never been an issue for me. I still game on a 1600x900 screen, i don't run DSR or OGSSAA, and I get by just fine. In fact, the MMO i currently play (Elder Scrolls Online) has none of these graphical issues that i see from others, on any of the cards i've ran. I am going to go ahead and call this case closed. It has to be the software at fault, or the user. Unless someone can point me towards some clear evidence stating otherwise. 

[Demiqas]

I've got something else interesting to describe. Turns out my SGSSAA was not working properly. I reverted back even more versions and now it works albeit with a huge fps drop ofcourse. In my modded skyrim, I get ~30 fps in most areas with 4x SGSSAA turned on and I must say the image looks quite perfect. Here's the interesting thing however:

 

Back when I had my r7 260x, I could do the exact same thing by enabling 4x supersampling. With the r7 260x's power however I would get about ~24 fps average, but the image looked about as perfect as my 4x SGSSAA does on my current 750 ti. When I had upgraded to a gtx 960 a while ago, I got ~40 fps in busy areas with 8x SGSSAA turned on. The funny thing however is that I remember very well when I had turned on 8x sgssaa on my 960 the image quality still looked a lot worse than what my skyrim looks like right now with 4x sgssaa enabled. While I have nearly no more aliasing and very little temporal, my screen was mostly a jaggy mess on the 960. I know my sgssaa was working on my 960 because I would get a constant 60 fps otherwise.

[Praesi]

I remember having 150-300 fps in left 4 dead 2 in the past on gtx 285 then driver update came and fps wen't down to 50-150, so many games run awesome still on a gtx 480 atm so i haven't upgraded yet, oops now they will release driver update to reduce performance of this card to force me to buy 980 ti.

^^

[Michaelm542]

Apologize for not getting the vid up yet, it seems im having some issues with shadowplay uploading the content with the witcher 3.. so i just used obs variable bitrate on my i7 4790k. and im trying to upload again now.  

[xAcid9]

Both effects are a result of the nature of what is being displayed and what it's being displayed on. A 1080p display only has so much pixel density and thus can only show sharpness of an image to a certain degree. This is why the image looks overly sharp and grainy at native 1080p (and if you look closer at that screen shot, you can see individual pixels - especially in the blades of grass) and softer using DSR - because it's been downsampled from a higher resolution.

 

At 1080p, AA can only do so much because the pixels/pixel density is only so small and it's starting with/applying the AA filter to an image rendered at 1080p. But with DSR the "AA effect" is stronger. It's taking a much more sharply rendered image (much higher resolution) to begin with and displaying a downsampled version of that. The effect is what you see in those screens.

 

I don't know, maybe because you're using different preset on both SS and i think you set Smoothness in Nvidia CP too high.

 

From your screenshots, cropped and zoom in 2x. 

Left: 1080p Right: 4K DSR

The hill especially the trees lost more of it details compare to your 1080p screenshot.

Btw did you enabled in-game Sharpening in your 1080p and disabled it in 4K DSR? 

 

 

 

I took a couple of screenshots at 1080p and 1800p for comparison.

Icanonlyuse1800pbecauseAMDtoldmemycarddon'thavethehardwaretodo4KVSRwhichisbull. 

 

Max in-game setting with sharpening disabled. Open in new tab for full glory.

1080p

1800p resized to 1080p

1800p

 

 

Now if i zoom in 2x and crop the image,

You can see the 1800p give more details which is noticeable on the ground, the path and the roof.

[maxrosciano]

Guys I think you all went off topic.

 

The problem was nVidia Gpus having good image quality for a while and then degrading for no apparent reason.

 

Talking about DSR, VSR, downsampling or whatever is off topic. The OP claims that nVidia's cards lose image quality during their lifespan, nothing to do with what you are talking about.

[Praesi]

Guys I think you all went off topic.

 

The problem was nVidia Gpus having good image quality for a while and then degrading for no apparent reason.

 

Talking about DSR, VSR, downsampling or whatever is off topic. The OP claims that nVidia's cards lose image quality during their lifespan, nothing to do with what you are talking about.

Yes. But it should be clear by now that this is just a ridiculous fairytale. No need to talk about it any further.