Valve: 'Vulkan is the Future, Not Much Reason to Create DX12 Backend'

[ACatWithThumbs]

Of course he says this because other wise SteamOS will fail which it will no doubt as it has currently nothing to offer.
Also he isn't even mentioning that XboxOne uses it which changes everything.
Frostbite already has DX12 as well as Unreal Engine 4 and so does the in-house engine from Square Enix and many more.
Vulkan won't be the future just as OpenGL never was and anyone thinking that it will actually be used has no clue about the AAA game industry.
Unless someone pays the publishers for the implementation it won't be used it also takes extra work from Nvidia at the driver side which I doubt they will want to put it in when they are currently having DX12 issues that need to get sorted out.

Vavle hasn't done anything great for PC gaming in years they haven't released a single AAA game in years let alone one that actually pushes PC's, they still have no customer support, and the only reason they made refunds was because they were forced to by the EU and Origin had them.
They barely put any effort into Steam the UI still can't even scale to larger or high resolution displays like it's 2007.

 

[niofalpha]

Valve being anti-windows because they offer something similar to a form of competition? How surprising...

 

The annoying thing about companies like Valve is that they have massive followings which blindly obey them no matter what... Valve Sheep?

[LAwLz]

True but I'd prefer performance metrics. Closed system or not, I would prefer the more efficient API wins. Not just the open source API because open source. 

When he says various areas I would prefer various benchmarks.

It's not really about Open source vs closed source. It's about being able to reuse code on more than 1 platform, and it's about having the best performance on more than 1 platform.

Even if DirectX 12 happens to be a tiny bit better than Vulkan, Vulkan might perform far better than DirectX 11. According to NetMarketShare, Windows 10 only has a ~5% marketshare. So if developers want to bring the best performance to as many people as possible, they should go with the API that runs on 95% of desktops (as well as a ton of smartphones).

 

i didn't watch all of the press conference but he did not show any DirectX 12 vs Vulkan benchmarks. There is more to development tools than just performance though.

 

 

 

Valve being anti-windows because they offer something similar to a form of competition? How surprising...

 

The annoying thing about companies like Valve is that they have massive followings which blindly obey them no matter what... Valve Sheep?

How is this anti-Windows? Vulkan works on Windows too.

If anything it's anti-iOS, because that's the only major platform it doesn't work on.

[deviant88]

It's not really about Open source vs closed source. It's about being able to reuse code on more than 1 platform, and it's about having the best performance on more than 1 platform.

Even if DirectX 12 happens to be a tiny bit better than Vulkan, Vulkan might perform far better than DirectX 11. According to NetMarketShare, Windows 10 only has a ~5% marketshare. So if developers want to bring the best performance to as many people as possible, they should go with the API that runs on 95% of desktops (as well as a ton of smartphones).

 

i didn't watch all of the press conference but he did not show any DirectX 12 vs Vulkan benchmarks. There is more to development tools than just performance though.

 

All i could find is this so far at 49:34 if thats not crazy good scaling for cpu idk what it is.

Vulkan should phase out all dx11 and lower and old OGL.

Keep in mind Vulkan can be used for future playstation(sony is already working with kronos) all android phones/tablets, linux, Mac(i think) all windows from XP and up.

Vulkan will be released in a couple months, and i hope it gets great driver support on windows at least. Who the hell would want to write a very hard DX12 game engine/renderer just for W10 with 5% market share and not very bright future lol.

 

Also this link

[BuckGup]

With all those vendors on board and I can stay on windows 7 I extremely hope this happens. It also reminds me of this

[HKZeroFive]

When comparing different APIs the general public such as us likes to talk about performance numbers.

But for the devs what really matters is how good are the tools, is this easy to learn and work with, do I have a good ecosystem and debugging, documentation, are the drivers from GPU maker for this API solid and reliable and conformant? That's the stuff that's important, not the fps chart which we like to look at. Let's face it there is not going to be any real difference between a good DX12 implementation and a good Vulkan implementation.

e.g. if you put enough manhours into openGL even that can performs well but nobody likes doing that when the the API is a pain in the ass to work with and each GPU and each driver behaves differently.

Of course, flexibility is a vital aspect for Vulkan to be successful. Maybe it was just my excitement talking earlier on, but I just want to see some goddamn performance numbers

[othertomperson]

The video in question is

. The part where the article quotes is from 1:40:01. I'm on mobile, sorry for not putting in the video itself into the OP, I'll do it soon.

Here's a full transcript, courtesy of everyone's favourite website, WCCFtech:

As for my thoughts, I think it's great for Valve to push for competition, pitting themselves against Microsoft and DX12. We just need to get some good performance numbers and I think we're all set. Here's hoping that Vulkan will be successful, if not more than DX12. It's pretty much a win-win scenario for us.

Source: http://www.tweaktown.com/news/47646/valve-excited-over-dx12-talks-up-vulkan-api/index.html

 

Agreed. Been saying this for months tbh

 

 

Coming from Valve it's pretty much as biased as can be, since they not only waged war on Microsoft because of Windows 8 app store, but also is launching their wannabe console OS in SteamOS, which is Linux based.

 

Right now we have a plethora of DX12 games launching the next 6 months. I have no idea about any Vulkan games coming. Either way OpenGL is a useless poc, so Vulkan is definitely welcome either way.

 

Unsurprising coming from you. Last time you said anything on the subject it was how 3% adoption was worth taking the plunge for exclusivity over, abandoning 97% of the market.

 

You have an interesting definition of "plethora". There's like two so far.

[NAP51DMustang]

minus one major factor that no one here seems to understand. If you need production support while using Vulkan (this is assuming you aren't going to use DX12 at all like Newell says you should do, which would be retarded on any devs part) who are you going to call? the Khronos group? meanwhile with DX12 you have a full dedicated MS production support team specifically setup just for DX support. that is the reason you will continue to see DX12 in all AAA titles and even most AA titles (that is titles that are still high quality just not to the fanfare or expenditures of AAA).

 

it has very little to do with MS paying people money and more so to do with the support they give out to developers, much akin as to why people are willing to pay the 4000 USD for a Firepro or Quadro workstation GPU, the support you receive for the life of the product.

 

this isn't to say that Vulkan is bad but anyone who thinks devs everywhere are doing to drop DX12 just because Valve of all people want them to (I seriously don't know why anyone listens to them on the subject of game development considering they last actual game they designed from the ground up was Half Life and everything else was either a mod they turned into a game or a game idea they effectively purchased). this is only to say that just because Valve wants it to be all rainbows and unicorns doesn't mean it will be. there is this thing called the real world and every AAA dev is already completely comfortable with DX in their workflow environments and completely dropping that would be fool hardy to say the least.

 

[Notional]

Unsurprising coming from you. Last time you said anything on the subject it was how 3% adoption was worth taking the plunge for exclusivity over, abandoning 97% of the market.

 

You have an interesting definition of "plethora". There's like two so far.

 

 

That 3% was after 1 week on the market. After 5 weeks it's now just over 16%. Think we will hit 25-30% on less than 2 weeks? The remaining 97% does not all support DX12 on the hardware level. You think they will on Vulkan? My argument has always been that a single homogenous OS for PC gaming is an advantage for pc gaming. Linux will never be a useful consumer or gaming OS. At least not until they get their own "XP revolution" like Windows got.

 

Specifically said over the next 6 months. I could mention about 10 off the top of my head, which is quite a lot for AAA titles. I can mention 0 for Vulkan right now.

[LAwLz]

Linux will never be a useful consumer or gaming OS. At least not until they get their own "XP revolution" like Windows got.

Android, ChromeOS and the PS4's OS disagrees.

Kind of funny how the thing GNU/Linux was designed for (desktop PCs) is the only area it doesn't dominate in.

[othertomperson]

That 3% was after 1 week on the market. After 5 weeks it's now just over 16%. Think we will hit 25-30% on less than 2 weeks? The remaining 97% does not all support DX12 on the hardware level. You think they will on Vulkan? My argument has always been that a single homogenous OS for PC gaming is an advantage for pc gaming. Linux will never be a useful consumer or gaming OS. At least not until they get their own "XP revolution" like Windows got.

 

Specifically said over the next 6 months. I could mention about 10 off the top of my head, which is quite a lot for AAA titles. I can mention 0 for Vulkan right now.

 

If there were a drinking game in which we all took a shot every time you said something stupid we would all die.

 

16% is nothing. You continue to insist that excluding 84% of the entire PC market makes sense. When your brain cell undergoes mitosis you will see the error of your ways.

 

You are assuming that there is any link between people with hardware with "Dx12 Support" and those who have Windows 10. Not only is "Dx 12 support" intentionally a very vague phrase (Dx 12 has many features, some of which are supported by different hardware. No single piece of hardware, including Titan X or Fury X supports everything. Lots of it is not even intended for use on Desktops). 

 

And possibly. You're happy enough to comment on the compatibility of stuff that is not even out yet, and games that exist in name only. Personally I think that's beyond idiotic, but to each their own.

 

A single homogeneous OS for PC gaming is an advantage to PC gaming? lmfao sure, I look at console gaming and I think "YES. THAT'S WHAT PC GAMING NEEDS. MAOR EXCLUSIVITY." A single homogeneous ANYTHING is unlikely to be good for the market. Of course, the logical conclusion of what you are saying is that Directx 12 gets abandoned. Make something using Directx 11 which is supported by most PC gamers, or make something that only 16% can even install? The position you are arguing for is the reason Directx 9 lasted nearly a decade.

 

Linux is already useful as a consumer OS. The vast majority of people could use it and be none the wiser. As I, and many others, have told you before. Your wilful ignorance going back months, btw, is the reason for the tone of this message. Frankly I doubt you read the responses anyway.

 

All Linux needs is an API equivalent to Directx for the vast majority of games to be compatible. It's already easy to do this with Directx 9 games, if games already use an API that is equivalent to Directx 12 then there is no reason that every game shouldn't be available on Linux with immediacy. Of course if you actually did the most rudimentary research instead of parroting stuff you've heard more intelligent people than yourself say about a decade ago, you'd be aware of this.

 

And wow you mean that thing which has been out since July has more games in development than that thing that doesn't even have a launch date associated with it? Shit the bed how do you reach such conclusions!?!?!?!?!

 

These will be Directx 11 games with some features of Directx 12 enabled bar a couple of examples like Fable. There is no point in making a product that nearly 9 out of every 10 PC gamers won't be able to touch. Meanwhile an API is in development by an organisation that includes hardware manufacturers, game devs and publishers that reaches all of them and you are here whinging about Linux.

 

Vulkan has the ability to finally kill off Directx and Microsoft dependence, and that cannot happen soon enough.

[TroubleKlef]

I wonder how much of this is a push for SteamOS.

[Lays]

Don't do it cold turkey. I have been using Linux for 15 years so I'd do the switch overnight. But it's different and not everything will be familiar to Windows users, so I'd advise installing it on another partition and getting familiar with it for a few months at least.

 

 

I tried using elementaryOS in a VM on windows, couldn't even figure out how to install drivers lol   :D

[Notional]

Android, ChromeOS and the PS4's OS disagrees.

Kind of funny how the thing GNU/Linux was designed for (desktop PCs) is the only area it doesn't dominate in.

 

Afaik Android is fundamentally changed from desktop Linux OS'. Android is also a mess compared to IOS. I don't know anyone who uses chrome os. Maybe their chromecast uses it? Hardly a pc consumer OS. PS4 is a proprietary console OS. Highly irrelevant as the entire functionality and GUI has been made from ground up to that specific system. It's more firmware than generic OS. Like I've said before, even Valve's own costumer demography cannot be bothered with Linux, with a measly 0.92% adoption rate.

 

 

If there were a drinking game in which we all took a shot every time you said something stupid we would all die.

 

People who has no clue and nothing constructive to say, often resorts to pathetic ad hominems. Everything in my post is factual, except the estimate of Win10 adoption, and the Linux thing being my personal opinion. The fact that gamers have adopted Windows 10 16 times more than Linux in 5 weeks, contra Linux' all time adoption rate should speak volumes.

[othertomperson]

People who has no clue and nothing constructive to say, often resorts to pathetic ad hominems. Everything in my post is factual, except the estimate of Win10 adoption, and the Linux thing being my personal opinion. The fact that gamers have adopted Windows 10 16 times more than Linux in 5 weeks, contra Linux' all time adoption rate should speak volumes.

 

No I did my arguing. I have refuted every thing you have said about six times in recent months. I'm done. As I have already said (a sentence I have repeated ad nauseam at you but you do not fucking read or comprehend) your wilful ignorance, out of date information and absurd Microsoft analingus are making you repeatedly spew the same misinformation again and again and again in thread after thread.

 

Why should it speak volumes that Linux adoption has not been as fast as a fucking all but forced update on Windows when the API that makes it attractive has not even got a release date yet? Like you wonder why I question your intelligence when you say shit like this.

 

The Linux library has been growing steadily lately, but if Vulkan does what it's meant to then we will see an absolute avalanche, and people won't be blackmailed into leaving Windows 7 or 8.1 either.

[Ostwind]

I want to switch to W10 because I want to switch to it, not because I have to in order to play a patricular game or so  can get acceptable performance in a game. Any game that decides to be W10 only is going on my ignore list. I hope Vulcan turns out to be a win so I have less to worry about in the future.

[Notional]

16% is nothing. You continue to insist that excluding 84% of the entire PC market makes sense. When your brain cell undergoes mitosis you will see the error of your ways.

 

You are assuming that there is any link between people with hardware with "Dx12 Support" and those who have Windows 10. Not only is "Dx 12 support" intentionally a very vague phrase (Dx 12 has many features, some of which are supported by different hardware. No single piece of hardware, including Titan X or Fury X supports everything. Lots of it is not even intended for use on Desktops). 

 

16% in 5 weeks is record setting in PC OS adoption. Can you mention any other PC OS with a similar adoption rate? Adoption will only continue.

 

Also where have I talked about exclusion? With the exception of 2 Microsoft titles released as a marketing stunt for Win10/DX12, all other DX12 titles are not DX12 exclusive, so I am not talking excluding anyone here and now. What I have said earlier is that having DX12 and subsequently Windows 10 as exclusive for holiday 2016 is not necessarily bad or unlikely as EA themselves have said it would be a good thing. By then the adoption rate is not 16% but far higher.

 

 

You are assuming that there is any link between people with hardware with "Dx12 Support" and those who have Windows 10. Not only is "Dx 12 support" intentionally a very vague phrase (Dx 12 has many features, some of which are supported by different hardware. No single piece of hardware, including Titan X or Fury X supports everything. Lots of it is not even intended for use on Desktops). 

 

And possibly. You're happy enough to comment on the compatibility of stuff that is not even out yet, and games that exist in name only. Personally I think that's beyond idiotic, but to each their own. ​

 

That's because there is a factual link between people using Windows 10 and having DX12 hardware. 16.32% of steam users has both. Only 0.7% of the 17.02% Windows 10 steam users don't have a DX12 compatible card. Most of those are probably among the 0.63% that uses Windows 10 32bit, so they are excluded from most DX12 games anyways.

There are certain minimum requirements to be a DX12 card. That's the definition we are using.

 

All the DX12 games I have in mind are near completion. 6 month from release means a AAA game is very far en development and we have seen plenty of gameplay and trailers from all of them.

 

A single homogeneous OS for PC gaming is an advantage to PC gaming? lmfao sure, I look at console gaming and I think "YES. THAT'S WHAT PC GAMING NEEDS. MAOR EXCLUSIVITY." A single homogeneous ANYTHING is unlikely to be good for the market. Of course, the logical conclusion of what you are saying is that Directx 12 gets abandoned. Make something using Directx 11 which is supported by most PC gamers, or make something that only 16% can even install? The position you are arguing for is the reason Directx 9 lasted nearly a decade.

 

Look at it this way. Of Ubisoft's total market, PC makes up a measly 9%. PS4 is 30+% of their total market. Now out of those 9% you have 2-3 OS'  (WIn 7/10 and maybe 8.1) and at least 2 API's now (DX11 and 12). That's not counting Linux and Vulkan. Then you have 2 graphics cards vendors that needs individual codepaths, maybe even several per vendor. That is an insane amount of fragmentation for just 9%. And people wonder why console ports suck.

 

Imagine that number being 1 OS (Win10) and 1 API​ (DX12). Heck we can even make it Vulkan, as that benefits from Windows 10 WDDM 2.0 driverplatform too. That would make those 9% more homogenous and only need multiple code paths for the GPU vendors. That makes it easier and cheaper to make a good PC version of a game. Hopefully so PC won't be a measly 9% market share.

 

The only​ nasty exclusivity we have on PC right now is GameWorks and that does indeed prove your point. And again I have not advocated for DX12 exclusivity right now.

 

Linux is already useful as a consumer OS. The vast majority of people could use it and be none the wiser. As I, and many others, have told you before. Your wilful ignorance going back months, btw, is the reason for the tone of this message. Frankly I doubt you read the responses anyway.

 

All Linux needs is an API equivalent to Directx for the vast majority of games to be compatible. It's already easy to do this with Directx 9 games, if games already use an API that is equivalent to Directx 12 then there is no reason that every game shouldn't be available on Linux with immediacy. Of course if you actually did the most rudimentary research instead of parroting stuff you've heard more intelligent people than yourself say about a decade ago, you'd be aware of this.

 

I don't know anyone who wants Linux or care about it. I know a lot of public sectors that have tried to switch to Linux with catastrophic results every single time. People cannot be bothered doing anything manual to make their OS work. The OS needs to be completely self maintained and needs to be able to fix problems itself as well. And people are not going to do anything that requires using a console and TUI.

Apple managed to conquer huge market share from Microsoft. Linux has managed nothing. The netbooks using Linux failed completely as well.

​

All Linux needs is... I've heard this many times before. They just need a better GUI, better drivers, more games, a good graphics API. So pretty much everything that makes a gaming OS good, Linux is lacking. Well Linux already have a nice GUI, people says. Linux already has over 1500 games, AAA too. There's always going to be an excuse. Vulkan CAN make a huge change. But it will never be a revolution. Maybe a simple steambox or something. Have fun playing EA games on those. Is it even SteamOS anymore, if you quit Steam to launch Origin? Not that you can though.

 

And wow you mean that thing which has been out since July has more games in development than that thing that doesn't even have a launch date associated with it? Shit the bed how do you reach such conclusions!?!?!?!?!

 

These will be Directx 11 games with some features of Directx 12 enabled bar a couple of examples like Fable. There is no point in making a product that nearly 9 out of every 10 PC gamers won't be able to touch. Meanwhile an API is in development by an organisation that includes hardware manufacturers, game devs and publishers that reaches all of them and you are here whinging about Linux.

 

Vulkan has the ability to finally kill off Directx and Microsoft dependence, and that cannot happen soon enough.

 

Yes we have heard actual developers talking about using DX12 for a long time before launch. Vulkan? Not so much. Star Citizen and the Unreal engine (which isn't a game) are all I know of for sure.

​

Most of them uses async compute and the low level hardware access. DX12 is not an effects API, but an API focused on the technical aspect of hardware. These games all have DX11 support too, because there are no graphical differences, only performance differences.

 

Problem is that OpenGL is a useless redundant (even internally) and broken poc API. Sure most of Vulkan is based on mantle, but Khronos needs to prove their worth, before devs will use it. Might happen. But just because a game uses Vulkan does not automatically make it a Linux game.

 

It cannot happen period. At least not in the next 3+ years.

[LAwLz]

Afaik Android is fundamentally changed from desktop Linux OS'. Android is also a mess compared to IOS. I don't know anyone who uses chrome os. Maybe their chromecast uses it?

Android is Linux. It's not fundamentally different from "desktop Linux" as long as we are talking about the kernel. It's quite a bit different out of the box compared to how most distros are out of the box but that can be fixed if you want.

I disagree that Android is a mess compared to iOS.

What rock have you been living under if you don't know how successful Chromebooks are? They have been at the top of Amazon's best selling laptops list for years now. Only recently did some super cheap Windows laptops knock a few Chromebooks off the list.

Are you going to tell me laptop users aren't "PC consumers"? Considering how extremely popular they have been on Amazon I wouldn't be afraid to bet that like 20% of all laptops sold are chromebooks. Might even have been higher a year or two ago.

It's kind of cute how you are in such denial. First you say there will never be a gaming OS based on Linux and then when I point out that the most popular of the current gen consoles runs Linux, and how a huge amount of phones, tablets and Android consoles (including the ones from Nvidia and Razer) all run Linux you have to make shitty excludes as to why they don't count. That's what's called back pedaling. People do that when they have been proven wrong but don't want to lose face.

Just admit that you were wrong.

[Nowak]

Why are you people expecting developers to adopt Vulkan immediately upon it becoming available for developers and drop DirectX 12 like it's a fly because Valve says they should? DirectX is a proven API, while Vulkan is still not. Developers will need to prove just how good Vulkan is before it becomes widely adopted (and even then it won't be a complete replacement for DX12). Same with DX12, it's not gonna be adopted right away. Just look at how long it took developers to go from DirectX 9 to DirectX 11. Yeah.

[Dabombinable]

Why are you people expecting developers to adopt Vulkan immediately upon it becoming available for developers and drop DirectX 12 like it's a fly because Valve says they should? DirectX is a proven API, while Vulkan is still not. Developers will need to prove just how good Vulkan is before it becomes widely adopted (and even then it won't be a complete replacement for DX12). Same with DX12, it's not gonna be adopted right away. Just look at how long it took developers to go from DirectX 9 to DirectX 11. Yeah.

DirectX 12 is proprietary.

[Zah]

Why are you people expecting developers to adopt Vulkan immediately upon it becoming available for developers and drop DirectX 12 like it's a fly because Valve says they should? DirectX is a proven API, while Vulkan is still not. Developers will need to prove just how good Vulkan is before it becomes widely adopted (and even then it won't be a complete replacement for DX12). Same with DX12, it's not gonna be adopted right away. Just look at how long it took developers to go from DirectX 9 to DirectX 11. Yeah.

We're not, we want developers to use the API which works on more platforms, which is Vulkan, because that makes sense from a business standpoint.

[Nowak]

DirectX 12 is proprietary.

That is true, but Vulkan isn't gonna replace DirectX 12 tomorrow.

[Lethal Seraph]

If vulkan lives up to the expectations, I might revert back to Windows 7 and dump 10.

[Dabombinable]

That is true, but Vulkan isn't gonna replace DirectX 12 tomorrow.

DirectX 12 hasn't even replaced anything yet.......

[HKZeroFive]

Why are you people expecting developers to adopt Vulkan immediately upon it becoming available for developers and drop DirectX 12 like it's a fly because Valve says they should? DirectX is a proven API, while Vulkan is still not. Developers will need to prove just how good Vulkan is before it becomes widely adopted (and even then it won't be a complete replacement for DX12). Same with DX12, it's not gonna be adopted right away. Just look at how long it took developers to go from DirectX 9 to DirectX 11. Yeah.

The Lord GabeN has confirmed that Unity, Blizzard and Epic along with Valve will support Vulkan. Also, EA and Sony have been listed as working group participants - not surprising since EA has already implemented Mantle. Both AMD and NVIDIA are on board as well as Google Android and ARM. Not sure about Nintendo - there have been quite a few rumours about them being involved. Stardock and Oxide have discussed using Vulkan and I expect them to support it in the near future.

It'll take some time for other developers to get on board, and like you said, flexibility and performance will be the key reasons for developers to adopt Vulkan. But right now, there are a few big names who have announced Vulkan Support.