Valve: 'Vulkan is the Future, Not Much Reason to Create DX12 Backend'

[Nowak]

DirectX 12 hasn't even replaced anything yet.......

It probably can't even replace DirectX 9. Or 10.

[Notional]

Android is Linux. It's not fundamentally different from "desktop Linux" as long as we are talking about the kernel. It's quite a bit different out of the box compared to how most distros are out of the box but that can be fixed if you want.

I disagree that Android is a mess compared to iOS.

What rock have you been living under if you don't know how successful Chromebooks are? They have been at the top of Amazon's best selling laptops list for years now. Only recently did some super cheap Windows laptops knock a few Chromebooks off the list.

Are you going to tell me laptop users aren't "PC consumers"? Considering how extremely popular they have been on Amazon I wouldn't be afraid to bet that like 20% of all laptops sold are chromebooks. Might even have been higher a year or two ago.

It's kind of cute how you are in such denial. First you say there will never be a gaming OS based on Linux and then when I point out that the most popular of the current gen consoles runs Linux, and how a huge amount of phones, tablets and Android consoles (including the ones from Nvidia and Razer) all run Linux you have to make shitty excludes as to why they don't count. That's what's called back pedaling. People do that when they have been proven wrong but don't want to lose face.

Just admit that you were wrong.

 

Not a huge nerd when it comes to android, so I don't know enough about it. According to this part in wiki it does seem like the Linux kernel has been heavily modified and expanded upon for android, not in accordance with the Linux community: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_(operating_system)#Linux_kernel

 

Either way android isn't a PC OS, so does it matter? Would you use android on a pc if you could? Of course not.

 

I've never seen anyone with a chromebook here in Denmark. I see 50+% of my fellow Copenhagen Business School students having apple, apple and more apple. Chromebook might be a success, idk, but those are basically a tablet with a keyboard in functionality it seems.

IOS is updated a lot more and for a lot more handsets. Like pc gaming, android is a heavily fragmented market. A nightmare for app developers. Sounds familiar?

 

Sure chromebook users are pc users (I guess), but according to Gartner they are like 2% of the total pc market:

http://amigobulls.com/articles/new-chromebook-strategy-will-complete-google-android-eco-system

 

I am very cute  ​PS4 is not a pc though​. PS4 games cannot run on a Linux PC, as they are made specifically for the console, not Linux. I don't consider the XBONE to be a windows gaming pc either.

Call it what you want, but it won't make any difference in the traditional pc space. Even with SteamOS, I doubt Valve can even get 5% Linux users on their own platform.

 

DirectX 12 is proprietary.

 

So are the consoles and their API's. Haven't stopped any devs.

[Megahurt]

True but partially relevant only: AMD it's still way behind in Linux driver support. Now there's a lot of promise for their upcoming drivers but it's just not coming fast enough and might only support Fiji (which is not even that easy to find on stores today) so we're still talking 6 to 12 months away from any real Linux + Vulkan + AMD feasibility.

Depends if Linux drivers suck because of Linux or because of OpenGL.

[Dabombinable]

Not a huge nerd when it comes to android, so I don't know enough about it. According to this part in wiki it does seem like the Linux kernel has been heavily modified and expanded upon for android, not in accordance with the Linux community: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_(operating_system)#Linux_kernel

 

Either way android isn't a PC OS, so does it matter? Would you use android on a pc if you could? Of course not.

 

I've never seen anyone with a chromebook here in Denmark. I see 50+% of my fellow Copenhagen Business School students having apple, apple and more apple. Chromebook might be a success, idk, but those are basically a tablet with a keyboard in functionality it seems.

IOS is updated a lot more and for a lot more handsets. Like pc gaming, android is a heavily fragmented market. A nightmare for app developers. Sounds familiar?

 

Sure chromebook users are pc users (I guess), but according to Gartner they are like 2% of the total pc market:

http://amigobulls.com/articles/new-chromebook-strategy-will-complete-google-android-eco-system

 

I am very cute  ​PS4 is not a pc though​. PS4 games cannot run on a Linux PC, as they are made specifically for the console, not Linux. I don't consider the XBONE to be a windows gaming pc either.

Call it what you want, but it won't make any difference in the traditional pc space. Even with SteamOS, I doubt Valve can even get 5% Linux users on their own platform.

 

 

So are the consoles and their API's. Haven't stopped any devs.

DirectX 12 will only work on Windows, not OSX, Android, iOS, Linux and older versions of Windows. Developing for Vulcan makes sense in every single way as there are quite a lot of devices running those OS, and developing to reach the maximum amount of people makes sense.

[Notional]

DirectX 12 will only work on Windows, not OSX, Android, iOS, Linux and older versions of Windows. Developing for Vulcan makes sense in every single way as there are quite a lot of devices running those OS, and developing to reach the maximum amount of people makes sense.

 

That's under the assumption that the API will be as good as DX12. You also have to factor in things like ease of porting from the consoles, performance, etc. Just because Vulkan is jack of all OS' does not mean it's the best for devs to use. A AAA title will not be made to run on android, Ios, OSX (probably) either. It will be made for newish version(s) of Windows and maybe Linux, if the market is big enough to be worth it (it isn't right now). Then you have the entire eco system of Linux, which needs to be stable (this includes third party software like drivers). Many factors to account for.

[Misanthrope]

Depends if Linux drivers suck because of Linux or because of OpenGL.

 

They suck because of AMD, not willing to put enough time and people into them.

[BloodySinner]

Valve's response doesn't hold much weight when they're hardly producing software themselves.

[Humbug]

I think the main reason people listen to Valve is that they have set themselves up in a PR position as an 'open-source hero'

Interesting point, they may be giving a boost to an open source platform but valve themselves

are not 'open source heros'. Most of Valve's work is closed source. Only a limited amount of developer tools which they have created are open source.

They present themselves as heroes for open ecosystems. E.g. They don't ask for exclusivity clauses on steam, they have a buy once policy and play anywhere across Linux, windows, Mac OSX. They allow almost anybody to put stuff on steam. They allow non steam games to be manually added and use steam features such as screenshots, fps meter, status, in-game overlay etc.. This is all good.

But they are not really champions of open source. Most of steamOS is open source including the stuff that they customized but the steam client itself is closed source. And valve games are closed source as are most of the games on steam. It also defaults to proprietary graphics drivers. I am fine with all of this but some in the Linux community are not happy about the arrival of so much closed source stuff into their world. They do invest money into R&D for open source graphics drivers though and that seems to have earned them some points in the Linux community.

[Humbug]

True but partially relevant only: AMD it's still way behind in Linux driver support. Now there's a lot of promise for their upcoming drivers but it's just not coming fast enough and might only support Fiji (which is not even that easy to find on stores today) so we're still talking 6 to 12 months away from any real Linux + Vulkan + AMD feasibility.

Agreed about AMD sucking on Linux gaming performance and not putting enough manpower on it. But it looks like specifically it's their openGL component which sucks. It happens to suck on windows too but nobody cares because almost all the games use directX. Now Vulkan and DX12 will not require as much effort to maintain the drivers because a lot of stuff is moved onto the application layer and the driver is much thinner.

[Icecube26]

bottom line is... DX 12 is out...  while vulkan is still in development... theyre are DX 12 games already announced... 0 vulkan games...DX 12 is win 10 exclusive... vulkan is multiplatform.... so u have to program games for each platform separatly... takes a lot more time...just because valve say they want vulkan doesnt mean all the major devs are going to be using it.. valve doesnt make games themselves... except CSGO and DOTA... they just want more games for SteamOS so they can sell more steam machines.... moar money is all they want...

[Guest Kloaked]

Can't wait to see how broken Vulkan is and how it doesn't deliver on it's promises.

[Humbug]

bottom line is... DX 12 is out... while vulkan is still in development... theyre are DX 12 games already announced... 0 vulkan games...

2 vulkan games announced

Dota2- OSX, Linux, Windows

Ashes of the Singularity- only Linux version will use Vulkan

[Albatross]

The fact it comes to Windows 7 and Linux/OS X makes it a billion times better than DX12, which forces you to downgrade to Windows 10.

 

I agree, and I like that you said downgrade.

 

Can't wait to see how broken Vulkan is and how it doesn't deliver on it's promises.

 

Why must you jinx it? :c

[That Norwegian Guy]

Well, the day Windows 10 is required for new games is the day I'm out of gaming forever.

 

So Vulkan's success is the only way I will continue to buy games.

[Humbug]

Can't wait to see how broken Vulkan is and how it doesn't deliver on it's promises.

Well if you have reason to think that an API which google is pushing for it's next Gen android games, and which will be supported by all major game engines, and which the likes of Nvidia/AMD/Intel/ARM/Qualcom/Dice/Valve/Epic agreed on is going to be broken good luck to you.

[Albatross]

Well, the day Windows 10 is required for new games is the day I'm out of gaming forever.

 

So Vulkan's success is the only way I will continue to buy games.

 

Same for me. I'd rather not game if it means upgrading to Windows 10. I'll play my N64 for the rest of my life if I have to.

[Humbug]

Same for me. I'd rather not game if it means upgrading to Windows 10.

Because of privacy concerns?

[AlwaysFSX]

Coming from Valve it's pretty much as biased as can be, since they not only waged war on Microsoft because of Windows 8 app store, but also is launching their wannabe console OS in SteamOS, which is Linux based.

 

Right now we have a plethora of DX12 games launching the next 6 months. I have no idea about any Vulkan games coming. Either way OpenGL is a useless poc, so Vulkan is definitely welcome either way.

Spot fucking on.

[Albatross]

Because of privacy concerns?

 

Yes. The concern for my privacy is the number one reason I am not upgrading. Why do you ask?

[Humbug]

Yes. The concern for my privacy is the number one reason I am not upgrading. Why do you ask?

No reason. Just curious.

I happen to be still using the windows 10 tech preview and I read stories on this forum about how the data collection stuff from win10 was also being pushed out to windows 7 and windows 8 users via updates. It's hard to know really.

[Guest Kloaked]

Well if you have reason to think that an API which google is pushing for it's next Gen android games, and which will be supported by all major game engines, and which the likes of Nvidia/AMD/Intel/ARM/Qualcom/Dice/Valve/Epic agreed on is going to be broken good luck to you.

 

I don't know what you mean by your post.

 

If it's a shot at my position, then pardon my skepticism. I'll believe it when I see it, just like how I was skeptic of ShadowPlay's promises.

[Albatross]

No reason. Just curious.

I happen to be still using the windows 10 tech preview and I read stories on this forum about how the data collection stuff from win10 was also being pushed out to windows 7 and windows 8 users via updates. It's hard to know really.

 

Ah, okay.

 

And it was pushed out. I got the update on Windows 7 but I promptly uninstalled it and hid the update. They are sneaky bastards. :angry:

[Icecube26]

2 vulkan games announced

Dota2- OSX, Linux, Windows

Ashes of the Singularity- only Linux version will use Vulkan

wow AotS has DX 12 aswell...for windows... how many ppl are using linux.... very few.... expected Dota to have vulkam... because valve...because SteamOS..

list of DX 12 games or games getting DX 12 patch : Star Wars Battlefront,Deus Ex Mankind Divided, Mirror's Edge ,Fable, Rise of the Tomb Raider,Arma 3, DayZ, Ark Survival Evolved,Gears of War,Star Citizen and more to come.. Plus all the major engines will support DX 12 including CryEngine., Unity, Unreal, Frostbite... just the fact that DX 12 has a 5-6 months advantage over vulkam mean ... it will get adopted quicker...

[Humbug]

I don't know what you mean by your post.

If it's a shot at my position, then pardon my skepticism. I'll believe it when I see it, just like how I was skeptic of ShadowPlay's promises.

except they haven't promised anything unbelievable... It's just a modern graphics API and it's been done before.

[Humbug]

Snip

Was merely responding to the assertion about zero Vulkan games announced.

Fully agree that we will have many more DX12 games on PC at least for a while because it came out first. Although this is not really a bad thing for Vulkan as it will be relatively easier to move between DX12 and Vulkan backends as they have the same principles, compared to the headaches of the past when porting from DX9/DX11 to openGL.