I have these random thoughts, but why isn't this a thing?

[gergy008]

We have power line adapters...
... We also have power over Ethernet.... Sooo

So why isn't power line networking a standard for all internet enabled devices, for example my desktop doesn't need an Ethernet cable because it could have a power line networking device built into the power supply.

If this was standardised, it would mean any electronics could be safeguarded from theft too, like say I lose my laptop, report it lost, and it gets plugged in the future the device could be bricked automatically unless they've deliberately decided to use a power strip that doesn't use the standard.

After widespread adoption, It would be possible to make power adapters that ONLY work with an Internet connection, therefore my laptop won't charge unless the power adapter can authorise the device connected to it as not stolen, and for stuff like Apple's MagSafe charger it means that I can make sure my laptop cannot be charged at all after I report it stolen; because Apple refuse to licence third party chargers.

It would make networking so seamless for end users.

 

EDIT: I forgot that the US doesn't have internet in like 50% of the continent. But for anywhere else, it could work...

[Rohith_Kumar_Sp]

We have power line adapters...

... We also have power over Ethernet.... Sooo

So why isn't power line networking a standard for all internet enabled devices, for example my desktop doesn't need an Ethernet cable because it could have a power line networking device built into the power supply.

If this was standardised, it would mean any electronics could be safe guarded from theft too, like say I lose my laptop, report it lost, and it gets plugged in in the future the device could be bricked automatically unless they've deliberately decided to use a power strip that doesn't use the standard.

After widespread adoption, I could make power adapters that ONLY work with an Internet connection, therefore my laptop won't charge unless the power adapter can authorise the device connected to it as not stolen, and for stuff like Apples MagSafe charger it means that I can make sure my laptop cannot be charged at all after I report it stolen; because Apple refuse to licence third party chargers.

It would make networking so seamless for end users.

The same reason you are not using your earphone jack to power the laptop, its not the same things, all wires are not the same.

Edit : Google Thunderbolt. 

[Firearm2112]

 I could make power adapters that ONLY work with an Internet connection, therefore my laptop won't charge unless the power adapter 

 

so your saying i cant charge my laptop when im at my lakehouse with no internet.

 

seems dumb

[Guest Kloaked]

We don't even have fiber in most places and you want that?

[LukaP]

because powerline is shit for anything serious, networking related

[Volbet]

The main issue with this idea, is that not all houses have the same wiring.

For example, the house I live in was build in the 1920s, which means that the power cables are old as hell. That means that I can't run a powerline adapter and have it be reliable.

However, parts of our house was renovated in the 1980s, and in those parts I can use powerline.

 

Also, powerline is still pretty unstabel when compared to ethernet. So we would still need a standard for places where reliability is alpha and omega.

[ionbasa]

We already have something similar, although it's fairly rare: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadband_over_power_lines

 

Broadband over Power Line has been one giant experiment since its inception. There are quite a fair amount of issues with the application though, such as line noise.

[Rohith_Kumar_Sp]

EDIT: I forgot that the US doesn't have internet in like 50% of the continent. But for anywhere else, it could work...

no shit : http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/281846-where-the-60-of-the-world-that-don%E2%80%99t-have-the-internet-live-guess-whos-on-top-spoilerindia/

[gergy008]

The same reason you are not using your earphone jack to power the laptop, its not the same things, all wires are not the same.

Edit : Google Thunderbolt. 

 

I don't think you understand me. Powerline networking already exists and works... it just needs to be integrated more.

 

so your saying i cant charge my laptop when im at my lakehouse with no internet.

 

seems dumb

 

See edit. Internet should be everywhere, do you truly not have internet there? No 3G?

 

We don't even have fiber in most places and you want that?

 

See edit.

 

because powerline is shit for anything serious, networking related

 

It wouldn't be if it was in more demand. The reason it's not standardised or great quality is because most people don't need it.

 

The main issue with this idea, is that not all houses have the same wiring.

For example, the house I live in was build in the 1920s, which means that the power cables are old as hell. That means that I can't run a powerline adapter and have it be reliable.

However, parts of our house was renovated in the 1980s, and in those parts I can use powerline.

 

Also, powerline is still pretty unstabel when compared to ethernet. So we would still need a standard for places where reliability is alpha and omega.

 

My old house was pretty old, and even with awful wiring, it's still good enough to conduct electricity and send signals. Making it more suitable and reliable on older cables is a matter of tweaking the software I guess.

 

We already have something similar, although it's fairly rare: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadband_over_power_lines

 

Broadband over Power Line has been one giant experiment since its inception. There are quite a fair amount of issues with the application though, such as line noise.

 

I mean inside the home, like from the plug the router is in to the plug your desktop is in.

[Rohith_Kumar_Sp]

I don't think you understand me. Powerline networking already exists and works... it just needs to be integrated more.

ya,my context was a little different when i read it, anyway, if all power lines in US carry internet, who owns it ? US of A? NSA ?  

[LukaP]

 

It wouldn't be if it was in more demand. The reason it's not standardised or great quality is because most people don't need it.

 

no, its crap because youre using unshielded wires, to transfer highly sensitive TCP packets, and use those same wires at the same time to distribute large amounts of power. no matter the optimisation, it will never be a reliable service, especially with thin or old wires. it just cant be. 

 

Its a "good enough" solution for those that dont have the option of ethernet

[gergy008]

ya,my context was a little different when i read it, anyway, if all power lines in US carry internet, who owns it ? US of A? NSA ?  

 

I mean internally in the household, like the internet is provided to your router, but because your router is plugged into power, all power sockets in your house get internet through the power socket

[ionbasa]

...

 

 

I mean inside the home, like from the plug the router is in to the plug your desktop is in.

You'd still have issues. One example is with split or multi-phase power. Since most homes have two 'hot' lines that branch two different circuits, you can't guarantee the signal will magically work on the other phase or line.

[Volbet]

My old house was pretty old, and even with awful wiring, it's still good enough to conduct electricity and send signals. Making it more suitable and reliable on older cables is a matter of tweaking the software I guess.

Tweaking the software can only get you so far. In the end, it comes down to the physical properties of the copper in your walls.

if the wires are old, they are probably also a pretty crappy qualitty, since they didn't need a lot of power in the olden day.

Granted, if your house is build post 1960 it should theoretically be OK.

 

But there is also the problem of shielding. Power cables aren't sheilded the same way that ethernet cables are.

So if you want to run maybe 10+ meter, you can run into some major problems with the connection 

[gergy008]

no, its crap because youre using unshielded wires, to transfer highly sensitive TCP packets, and use those same wires at the same time to distribute large amounts of power. no matter the optimisation, it will never be a reliable service, especially with thin or old wires. it just cant be. 

 

Its a "good enough" solution for those that dont have the option of ethernet

 

It's no gigabit, but it's really reliable. I use it because I don't like the inconsistency of wireless, my pings and transfer rates are excellent.

[gergy008]

Tweaking the software can only get you so far. In the end, it comes down to the physical properties of the copper in your wall.

if the wires are old, they are probably also a pretty crappy qualitty, since they didn't need a lot of power in the olden day.

Granted, if your house is build post 1960 it should theoretically be OK.

 

But there is also the problem of shielding. Power cables aren't sheilded the same way that ethernet cables are.

So if you want to run maybe 10+ meter, you can run into some major problems with the connection 

 

True, but for most people current powerline adapters work fine.

[LukaP]

It's no gigabit, but it's really reliable. I use it because I don't like the inconsistency of wireless, my pings and transfer rates are excellent.

you have good wires then. but most people dont. and then you get ping in the range of 100s and 50% tops on the transfer speeds. its just not good enough to replace ethernet for most people

[rentaspoon]

because powerline is shit for anything serious, networking related

the idea was thought about a few years ago and was going to be tested but this was before WiFi and powerline came along.

 

next thing we had was Bluetooth and then WiFi so there was no point as that was the new thing.

[BurgerBum]

snip

im going to do something i know people hate, because when my parrents do it, it drives me fucking insane but it is so true right now. 

 

you asked. 

you got an answer. 

you didnt like the answer. 

 

 

tough cookie. 

[gergy008]

im going to do something i know people hate, because when my parrents do it, it drives me fucking insane but it is so true right now. 

 

you asked. 

you got an answer. 

you didnt like the answer. 

 

 

tough cookie. 

 

I like the answers... it's called a debate. I just wanted to know what people thought about the idea of it and what impracticalities it could have, if any. I'm taking the replies into account and trying to come up with a way to fix it, or an alternative.

 

I'm currently determining if wifi could be a great way to help speeds or be used as a fallback and that powerline could be a way to authenticate and use wifi in conjunction.

[BurgerBum]

I like the answers... it's called a debate. I just wanted to know what people thought about the idea of it and what impracticalities it could have, if any. I'm taking the replies into account and trying to come up with a way to fix it, or an alternative.

 

I'm currently determining if wifi could be a great way to help speeds or be used as a fallback and that powerline could be a way to authenticate and use wifi in conjunction.

well, seeing as most prosumers and enthusiasts would hate to move over to wifi even if it was faster than cables (cause theres a metric tit-tonne of advantages to cables) wifi becoming more accepted ,..... not for a long time. 

used as back up? totaly. 

[Bsmith]

its not much of a thing because the powerlines in our houses arent able to give us the speeds needed, modern wifi is even faster then powerlines.

 

this is because our powerlines are made (like their name says) to deliver power, adding your web into it can lead to EMI's(Electro Magnetical Interference) screwing everything up, which is why our LAN calbes are shoulded against influence from the outside and powerlines generely aren't, since all they do is carry a current instead of information.

[LukaP]

its not much of a thing because the powerlines in our houses arent able to give us the speeds needed, modern wifi is even faster then powerlines.

 

this is because our powerlines are made (like their name says) to deliver power, adding your web into it can lead to EMI's(Electro Magnetical Interference) screwing everything up, which is why our LAN calbes are shoulded against influence from the outside and powerlines generely aren't, since all they do is carry a current instead of information.

Ethernet is mainly shielded from itself. usually you have 4 wires, so 2 data streams. those can interfere. thats why you have UTP cables (Unshielded, twisted pair) They arent shielded in a normal way (faraday cage) but rather by sending an opposide signal acros the twisted pair, and then subtracting the EMI from that.

 

You usually dont have your indoor CAT5 cable near enough to an active wire to produce any meaningful interference, but when your "CAT" cable becomes the live wire as well, you have problems

[Bsmith]

Ethernet is mainly shielded from itself. usually you have 4 wires, so 2 data streams. those can interfere. thats why you have UTP cables (Unshielded, twisted pair) They arent shielded in a normal way (faraday cage) but rather by sending an opposide signal acros the twisted pair, and then subtracting the EMI from that.

 

You usually dont have your indoor CAT5 cable near enough to an active wire to produce any meaningful interference, but when your "CAT" cable becomes the live wire as well, you have problems

 

this is basicly what i meant, but then explained with better english and a slightly better understanding.

tnx once again luka

[LukaP]

this is basicly what i meant, but then explained with better english and a slightly better understanding.

tnx once again luka

LukaPman always here to the rescue