Rossman Group Lying about repairs.

[RabbidEwok]

I was curious about Rossman Groups pricing and overall knowledge about repairs on products so I asked for a quote for a cheap and quick repair and through that talked to one of their employees regarding it. 
 

• The repair concerned the replacement of the MacBook Lid Angle Sensor
• Through Apples self repair service the part in question costs ~$10 USD and if you have no tools the tool pack is $49 to rent so a maximum outlay of ~$59
• The repair is relatively simple. You remove the back panel of the laptop and then it’s I believe 3 screws to remove the LAS. Afterwards you calibrate the sensor with free software provided by the manufacturer as per the free repair manual.
• When contacting Rossman Group for a quote they gave a costs of $200-250. When asked they said just replacing the LAS would “cause some issues”. If the repair is done correctly then this is not the case. This is lie number 1.
• Upon asking what are the potential issues they listed symptoms that present when an incorrect repair has been undertaken and the calibration hasn’t been run.
• When informating them that a free calibration tool is available as per the freely availed repair manual they then stated that you would have the purchase the tool and a free tool does not exist (Lies 2 and 3) and that if purchasing the repair from them I wouldn’t have to worry about that even though according to them they are now operating outside of the repair guide and are using 3rd party software or hardware to complete the repair.

 

So in conclusion the agent is either lying through their teeth or inept. Rossman Group are charging a minimum of $200 for a $10 OEM part on a repair that costs a maximum of $60 to do yourself. It’s also not a labour intensive job. I would say someone without experience could have it accomplished within an hour, a trained technician maybe 15 minutes. I very much doubt they are paying their staff over $400 an hour. 

[Dedayog]

4 minutes ago, RabbidEwok said:

I was curious about Rossman Groups pricing and overall knowledge about repairs on products so I asked for a quote for a cheap and quick repair and through that talked to one of their employees regarding it. 
 

• The repair concerned the replacement of the MacBook Lid Angle Sensor
• Through Apples self repair service the part in question costs ~$10 USD and if you have no tools the tool pack is $49 to rent so a maximum outlay of ~$59
• The repair is relatively simple. You remove the back panel of the laptop and then it’s I believe 3 screws to remove the LAS. Afterwards you calibrate the sensor with free software provided by the manufacturer as per the free repair manual.
• When contacting Rossman Group for a quote they gave a costs of $200-250. When asked they said just replacing the LAS would “cause some issues”. If the repair is done correctly then this is not the case. This is lie number 1.
• Upon asking what are the potential issues they listed symptoms that present when an incorrect repair has been undertaken and the calibration hasn’t been run.
• When informating them that a free calibration tool is available as per the freely availed repair manual they then stated that you would have the purchase the tool and a free tool does not exist (Lies 2 and 3) and that if purchasing the repair from them I wouldn’t have to worry about that even though according to them they are now operating outside of the repair guide and are using 3rd party software or hardware to complete the repair.

 

So in conclusion the agent is either lying through their teeth or inept. Rossman Group are charging a minimum of $200 for a $10 OEM part on a repair that costs a maximum of $60 to do yourself. It’s also not a labour intensive job. I would say someone without experience could have it accomplished within an hour, a trained technician maybe 15 minutes. I very much doubt they are paying their staff over $400 an hour. 

So not how that all works.  You're very young, correct?  As in not much experience with repair shops, car dealers and mechanics, plumbers, electricians, etc?

[RabbidEwok]

Just now, Dedayog said:

So not how that all works.  You're very young, correct?  As in not much experience with repair shops, car dealers and mechanics, plumbers, electricians, etc?

I am literally an electronic technician. 

[Alex Atkin UK]

20 minutes ago, RabbidEwok said:

I am literally an electronic technician. 

You're missing that Rossmann cannot obtain those parts from Apple, only you can.  So its not as simple as you make out for them to do the repair.

 

Also if you do it yourself, you need the knowledge, the skill and I'd imagine have no warranty.

 

If you've watched his videos you would know he is very transparent about all this.

 

[RabbidEwok]

15 minutes ago, Alex Atkin UK said:

You're missing that Rossmann cannot obtain those parts from Apple, only you can.  So its not as simple as you make out for them to do the repair.

 

Also if you do it yourself, you need the knowledge, the skill and I'd imagine have no warranty.

 

If you've watched his videos you would know he is very transparent about all this.

 

He certainly could if he wanted to. It’s literally just applying for a ASP licence. He just doesn’t want to. But then he wouldn’t be able to charge $250 for a $10 part and 15 minutes of labour I guess. 
 

What knowledge? It’s like 9 screws and a phone call and you still get a warranty plus it does not affect your existing warranties. 
 

He lies quite a lot about it. 

[Alex Atkin UK]

5 minutes ago, RabbidEwok said:

He certainly could if he wanted to. It’s literally just applying for a ASP licence

No, its not.  He has covered this in depth also that in order to apply for an ASP license he would then no longer be allowed to do 99% of the repairs he does.

[Kilrah]

37 minutes ago, RabbidEwok said:

I very much doubt they are paying their staff over $400 an hour. 

Certainly not, but as every trade business they will charge their staff's time at $150-300 an hour probably.

 

Running a business has costs. Rent, utilities, insurance, worker compensation, taxes, admin/sales/other staff that isn't directly the person doing the repair but is involved in providing the environment and contacts leading to the techs having some job to do, including things like answering the emails you sent potentially for nothing,...

 

Then they'll warranty their work, have to cover the rare case of something going wrong during the repair and them having to replace something else at their own cost in time and money, cover for the occasional irate customer that makes no sense...

 

All just part of running a business that always makes professional services an order of magnitude more expensive than DIYing.

[Alex Atkin UK]

Bottom line, they never claim to be the best option for all repairs.  If your repair is covered at an ASP repair shop (and you don't mind the wait time, as I believe they're not allowed to stock parts they have to order from Apple as required), then use that, or Apple themselves.  If not, then Rossmann is the place to go, particularly if you need a fast turnaround.

 

It would be insanity to downgrade their service to just the same as an ASP, leaving customers SOL if they need a repair outside of what Apple covers.

[PDifolco]

8 minutes ago, Kilrah said:

Certainly not, but as every trade business they will charge their staff's time at $150-300 an hour probably.

 

Running a business has costs. Rent, utilities, insurance, worker compensation, taxes, admin/sales/other staff that isn't directly the person doing the repair but is involved in providing the environment and contacts leading to the techs having some job to do, including things like answering the emails you sent potentially for nothing,...

 

Then they'll warranty their work, have to cover the rare case of something going wrong during the repair and them having to replace something else at their own cost in time and money, cover for the occasional irate customer that makes no sense...

 

All just part of running a business that always makes professional services an order of magnitude more expensive than DIYing.

Yeah was doing some estimates

 

part $10

Overhead/flat ticket price $30

Work $60

Testing/QC $60

Profit and taxes $30

That's close to $200 ...

 

 

[RabbidEwok]

54 minutes ago, PDifolco said:

Yeah was doing some estimates

 

part $10

Overhead/flat ticket price $30

Work $60

Testing/QC $60

Profit and taxes $30

That's close to $200 ...

 

 

Where are you getting $60 from? To open and close the laptop? $60 for work also means a $240 an hour. 

[RabbidEwok]

1 hour ago, Alex Atkin UK said:

No, its not.  He has covered this in depth also that in order to apply for an ASP license he would then no longer be allowed to do 99% of the repairs he does.

You mean the repairs that he has about 100x margin on? I wonder why he doesn’t want to do things correctly. 

 

Basically the reason he doesn’t want to is because it would means he has to actually do his job properly. 
 

Basicallt he’s anti consumer is what it boils down to. He wants to charge more money for less work. 

[thevictor390]

Ever brought a car to a mechanic?

 

The Apple program is clearly a better choice here if you are willing to open your laptop and are not on a time crunch. Many people are not willing to do that (yes, even though it is only a few screws). So by having an open mind you are coming out way ahead.

 

I do think it would be a good idea to contact them about your experience, it sounds like his techs should be better educated on what the Apple self repair program offers. Particularly since some repairs do not have a software tool available and some do.

[Poinkachu]

3 hours ago, RabbidEwok said:

You mean the repairs that he has about 100x margin on? I wonder why he doesn’t want to do things correctly. 

 

Basically the reason he doesn’t want to is because it would means he has to actually do his job properly. 
 

Basicallt he’s anti consumer is what it boils down to. He wants to charge more money for less work. 

 

A few while ago I replaced the polarizers on my car audio's screen.

After some nights asking here & learning stuffs, I replaced it myself. Costed me $1.5 for parts, $1.5 for tools.

I've seen some videos my friend sent of nearby repair shops replacing it, and I can say I have a way better minimum work standard even as a DIY-er.

And too bad for them, I am quite a good & fast learner.

 

If some stranger ask me to do it for them after all I learned DIY-ing it? I'm gonna charge them at least $20. Double if they want me to finish it within a day.

Why? Because at the very least, I have better work standard than nearby repair shop of course.

To the point that I am willing to guarantee the polarizers will only be off angled by up to 1 degree. (Yes, turns out even 1.5 degrees off can have quite an impact on picture quality, by my standard of course).

 

I get money, they get to spend their time doing whatever they enjoy instead of learning & trying to do repair.

And after it's all done, they get to enjoy their stuffs once more.

If something went wrong with the repair, they get to blame me, instead of themselves. And I get to fix it or replace it anew for them, for free.

 

 

IMO, You're basically comparing the cost of making a burger at home with buying a burger at a 4 star fine dining restaurant here.

[zaprqn]

1 hour ago, RabbidEwok said:

He certainly could if he wanted to. It’s literally just applying for a ASP licence. He just doesn’t want to. But then he wouldn’t be able to charge $250 for a $10 part and 15 minutes of labour I guess. 
 

What knowledge? It’s like 9 screws and a phone call and you still get a warranty plus it does not affect your existing warranties. 
 

He lies quite a lot about it. 

So why did you went to Rossmann if you really think an ASP would quote you 59$ish for that repair?  Shop around see how it goes for you, you are only comparing their price against what would cost you if you do it yourself and thats not a reasonable expectation to have.

 

He has talked extensively about the limitations that an ASP license would have on him, where he would become just a delivery service between Apple and the customer, and have to replace whole motherboards even if the issue is fixable on component level. 

[ToboRobot]

2 hours ago, RabbidEwok said:

I am literally an electronic technician. 

So you are not a business owner, and don't fully understand the economics of running a business?

[cooky560]

I've recently been looking at repair costs for some idiot who wacked their car door into mine, leaving a scratch about 1.5" along one of the doors. 

1.5" of paint is about $5, however the shop has quoted me $260 to repair it. 

 

This is because the cost of running the shop is more than just the paint. I don't see anything wrong with the estimate in OPs post.

[Kilrah]

1 hour ago, RabbidEwok said:

You mean the repairs that he has about 100x margin on? I wonder why he doesn’t want to do things correctly. 

You must not have followed much of what they do.

 

If a $1 part fails on a motherboard that is not a "replaceable part" as decided by Apple all an AASP can do is tell you "gotta replace the motherboard, that's gonna be $800-1200", or even more now that everything's soldered. Rossmann can fix it for what will probably cost $200-400 based on what's been discussed above. Everybody wins.

 

Also you should get a quote from an AASP of you want to make a comparison.

[Lomac]

3 hours ago, RabbidEwok said:

So in conclusion the agent is either lying through their teeth or inept. Rossman Group are charging a minimum of $200 for a $10 OEM part on a repair that costs a maximum of $60 to do yourself. It’s also not a labour intensive job. I would say someone without experience could have it accomplished within an hour, a trained technician maybe 15 minutes. I very much doubt they are paying their staff over $400 an hour. 

Overhead, overhead, overhead. Just because a part might be cheap, it doesn't mean the total bill will also be cheap. The company I work for charges between $100-500 (depending on what the initial call out is for), just to get us out the door. Even for a two minute job on a $2 part, it can cost a company upwards of $1000. There are a lot of costs associated with running a business other than someone's hourly wage and the cost of a part.

 

Here's an example from one location I look after for a random month's P&L:

 

Total sales - $1.05M

Gross profit - $410,000

Total expenses - $402,000

Net income - $8,000

 

So despite pulling in over a million dollars in sales, the final profit margin is miniscule. It was, admittedly, a slower month for that particular location but more profitable months have to help cover months where you lose money. It is more nuanced than that but, simply put, running a business is expensive.

[Touch My Hamm]

This analogy can be made about most things. Oil filling can sometimes cost $100+, Replacing a bathroom faucet costs $40 in parts and $100+ in someones time. You are paying for their experience and knowledge to do the job for you. They can charge what they believe their work is worth. Alot jobs are simply doing work that another person doesn't have the full knowledge of doing. Someone in their own house could work on their own electrical, yet they pay companies to come in and do it for them. Its the premium of the knowledge and if there is a warranty attached/other services being used.

[ToboRobot]

If you are known for fixing things well, and you have well paid staff, you eventually migrate to higher value work, and charge accordingly, even for small jobs. 

Why waste time on a small repair, when your technicians can be booked solid doing work that pays better?

A Porsche or Ferrari dealership has mechanics that CAN fix a Honda Civic, but Civic owners don't get their oil changed by Ferrari because the cost would be prohibitive.

Some people might be happy with Rossman group to do a great job on a simple repair for a device they love and cherish, and if not there are other shops that are happy to do that business.

 

I don't see the problem here, other that the typical internet brain worm of trying to find a problem.

[cooky560]

Ultimately Rossman's service is no different to anyone else's, you either accept the quote, or look elsewhere.

 

However given my auto example above, I honestly think you'll struggle to get it much cheaper, most small people need a margin of at least 10x parts costs to make a living when factoring in the whole picture of expenses.

[thekingofmonks]

You're forgetting the part where Rossmann Group isn't a large company like Apple that purchases parts in bulk. Apple can rent tools out for $50 because they sell products for very high profit. Rossmann needs enough money to support the employees, the location's rent, the tools required for repair as a much smaller company and most importantly source the parts in small quantities, for much higher prices per piece, without being an Apple partner.

 

Not only that, but you're comparing shop repair to DIY, so it's no surprise that the price difference is this big.

[Polderviking]

Why he won't become apple certified has been covered several times in the past, it's entirely due to how Apple has set that program up.

Not beeing able to do component level repair and have actual stock are among the problems.

 

As far as the price. This quote doesn't strike me as unreasonable.
Get some contractors to quote you a bathroom renovation and then find out what part of that massive sum of money you'd have to pay is labour.
Paying people do to things on your behalf will never be cheap.
There is overhead, and they will also warranty the fix to some degree.

DIY is always massively cheaper if you're capable. This can't be news.

[wanderingfool2]

3 hours ago, RabbidEwok said:

He certainly could if he wanted to. It’s literally just applying for a ASP licence. He just doesn’t want to

And this is why Apple created the ASP license/Independent Repair Provider Program, so people like you believe this.

 

The IRP, aside from the NDA stuff, from what has been told about it is terrible.  Apple does not permit the stockpiling of parts, so if you brought it in they would have to essentially contact Apple and get the part shipped which means a week or potentially two turn around.  Apple permits them to only use their parts and only work on Apple products that Apple has authorized, and only repair said parts in the specified way.

 

The tl;dr, it means if you determine a capacitor is gone on the mainboard you have to replace the mainboard and not the capacitor if you sign up to the IRP.  The IRP puts restrictions on what and how you do repairs.

 

3 hours ago, RabbidEwok said:

The repair is relatively simple. You remove the back panel of the laptop and then it’s I believe 3 screws to remove the LAS. Afterwards you calibrate the sensor with free software provided by the manufacturer as per the free repair manual.

3 hours ago, RabbidEwok said:

But then he wouldn’t be able to charge $250 for a $10 part and 15 minutes of labour I guess. 

You remind me of the type of person who would tell a plumber, "it's easy it should only take 5 minutes, why are you quoting me so much". (Ignores that it took 30 minutes to drive, that they had to inspect prior to actually figuring out if that was the issue).

 

Let's break this down a bit:

They quoted $200 - $250, in your recent post you assume it's $250; but it's better to assume the "cheaper" if trying to guess at the cost (when accusing someone of gouging because if the cheaper falls in line then it's not gouging).

 

The $10 part, it seems like it's more like $13 from what I could see.

So lets start with $200.

Credit card processing fees, depending on card, could be up to 5%...but in this case lets use the 3.5% (yes it's on the higher end, but you don't know what the customer might use to pay), so $7

With a $13 part.

We now are working with only $180 now.

 

 

Let's say it's also 5 minutes of actual work on the machine.

Calibration and verification of it working lets say takes 2 - 5 minutes

You will also generate at least 10 minutes of paperwork work (They need to inventory your item, write the invoice document etc).  People often overlook at how long some of these things could take.  At my former place of work for a simple password reset, it would take me at least another 1 - 2 minutes to quickly lookup the user in the ticketing system and mark they required a reset.

That doesn't even factor in that there will likely be a bit of downtime between finishing and starting a new repair.  So it might be closer to 30 minutes total when all things is said and done.  Could someone batch out and do things in maybe 10 minutes per pop...yea sure but it's unrealistic you will have that form of workflow.

 

Reminder, this doesn't include all the times that people come in to get a "repair" only to not be charged because they determine the damage is unrepairable.  Depending on how many people do that, it could add up quite quickly in terms of cost (they from my understanding don't charge in that case)

 

An employee only has ~160 work hours a month (if you assume he works them 8 hours a day, with 10 paid vacation days a year).  So that's 320 of these repairs he could make.  If each employee consumes about 50 square feet of room to do his job (~7 x 7 foot workspace); the average rent per month would be ~$1000/month/employee in Texas (the cheaper part of it).   So lets take off another $3 because that's how much each repair costs in terms of rental; we are at $177 now

 

How much is a reasonable profit for Rossman group as well?  You could have lets say $5 profit maybe?  So lets reduce to $172.

Payroll software costs quite a bit

I could keep going  on, remember as well insurance is a thing (it could be 10% of costs).  Then there are charge backs, repeat repairs (someone who blames your repair for other damage), lighting/electricity, purchasing of all the tools, other expenses like software costs (things like MS CAL's etc) which add up quite quickly.

 

Running a small business is not cheap, if you are able to do things at scale costs do decrease but for smaller businesses the overhead costs can be quite insane.

[Chubbysumo]

8 hours ago, RabbidEwok said:

I was curious about Rossman Groups pricing and overall knowledge about repairs on products so I asked for a quote for a cheap and quick repair and through that talked to one of their employees regarding it. 
 

• The repair concerned the replacement of the MacBook Lid Angle Sensor
• Through Apples self repair service the part in question costs ~$10 USD and if you have no tools the tool pack is $49 to rent so a maximum outlay of ~$59
• The repair is relatively simple. You remove the back panel of the laptop and then it’s I believe 3 screws to remove the LAS. Afterwards you calibrate the sensor with free software provided by the manufacturer as per the free repair manual.
• When contacting Rossman Group for a quote they gave a costs of $200-250. When asked they said just replacing the LAS would “cause some issues”. If the repair is done correctly then this is not the case. This is lie number 1.
• Upon asking what are the potential issues they listed symptoms that present when an incorrect repair has been undertaken and the calibration hasn’t been run.
• When informating them that a free calibration tool is available as per the freely availed repair manual they then stated that you would have the purchase the tool and a free tool does not exist (Lies 2 and 3) and that if purchasing the repair from them I wouldn’t have to worry about that even though according to them they are now operating outside of the repair guide and are using 3rd party software or hardware to complete the repair.

 

So in conclusion the agent is either lying through their teeth or inept. Rossman Group are charging a minimum of $200 for a $10 OEM part on a repair that costs a maximum of $60 to do yourself. It’s also not a labour intensive job. I would say someone without experience could have it accomplished within an hour, a trained technician maybe 15 minutes. I very much doubt they are paying their staff over $400 an hour. 

 

so do it yourself or take it to an AASP.  Rossmann has quite clearly stated why he and no one should join the "apple certified service center" program.  One of the biggest reasons is that they can no longer do board level repair.  NONE.  All he can do is what apple lets him, which is utterly minimal and wasteful. If a capacitor dies and blows up, he can't just replace it and hand you your laptop back.  he would have to replace the entire board, wipe all your data(hope you had it backed up!), and would have to order the parts and wait for apple to ship them, which right now is taking literally weeks. Go ahead, order that screen angle sensor from apple and see how long it takes to get to you.

 

also, no data recovery, or any other business that might conflict with apple's repairs, even on Non-apple devices.  second is that Apple gets all your customer data, ALL OF IT(even non-apple repair customer data).  which means that they can skip you the repair man and send them to someone else if they decided they don't like you.  They also have full unfettered access to your shop to do inspections any time they want, including for up to 2 years after you exit the program.  

 

The program is a literal joke in the repair business, because any shop that has so far joined has fully regretted it because they lose so much other business, and apple customers are the least profitable since they are limited in scope.

 

Also, rossmann can't order the part from apple.  They won't sell it to him.  In fact, they won't sell any of their parts to ANY third party repair shops, and prevent the actual part makers from ever selling those parts to anyone else but apple.  Its downright anti-competitive, and causes lots of waste.  They even go so far as to use CBP to confiscate non-apple third party repair parts at the border to prevent anyone from getting repairs at all.  

 

His prices are justified because he has a business to run.  Labor isn't cheap, and overhead isn't cheap. You are paying for his skilled repair techs to do the job in their space with the right tools.

 

The apple repair it your self kit means you will have to spend your time on it, and how much is your time worth, because you aren't considering that.  In my case, my time is worth about $45 an hour based on my current business.  If it took me, an unskilled with idevices person 2 hours to replace this screen angle sensor, that means my overhead was $90, plus the cost of the space to do it in my office/workshop, plus the cost of the tool kit($60), plus the cost of the part, and suddenly, rossmann's price isn't so terrible.  Im already at $160 without factoring in the cost of my workspace for 2 hours.  a rossmann tech is gonna get it done in 30 minutes, but you are paying for their skill, which is worth every penny, because guess what, its something less you have to do.

 

you clearly have never run a business and don't understand what you are paying for with that Rossmann quote.