Gamers Nexus alleges LMG has insufficient ethics and integrity

[Drazil100]

Just now, mikaelus said:

I simply wanted to have a discussion on this, that's all.

Same. I thought it was an interesting topic and am kinda sad it got merged into this massive shit storm as it's a valid discussion to have and I think it's separate from the ethical issues they have faced.

You are right that past performance isn't indicative of future performance, though LMG hasn't really had many downs since it started. This week is probably the hardest LMG has ever dropped.

I think the most important thing is that Labs isn't designed because Linus wants to make money on it. It's designed because he wants it to exist. Making money off labs isn't the point. While the fast pace of content creation DEFINITELY interfered with that mission and clouded his judgement, I truly believe that Labs was never intended to make Linus rich. 

That doesn't mean that Linus knows what he is doing or that it will be successful. The GN side of this week's controversies is definitely a blow. But it explains why he is taking such a risk in Labs.

[mikaelus]

10 minutes ago, Drazil100 said:

Same. I thought it was an interesting topic and am kinda sad it got merged into this massive shit storm as it's a valid discussion to have and I think it's separate from the ethical issues they have faced.

You are right that past performance isn't indicative of future performance, though LMG hasn't really had many downs since it started. This week is probably the hardest LMG has ever dropped.

I think the most important thing is that Labs isn't designed because Linus wants to make money on it. It's designed because he wants it to exist. Making money off labs isn't the point. While the fast pace of content creation DEFINITELY interfered with that mission and clouded his judgement, I truly believe that Labs was never intended to make Linus rich. 

That doesn't mean that Linus knows what he is doing or that it will be successful. The GN side of this week's controversies is definitely a blow. But it explains why he is taking such a risk in Labs.

I don't think there's necessarily a monetary motivation there per se but Linus himself mentioned many times how expensive the entire endeavor is and how it needs to pay for itself sooner or later. 

 

In fact, I think the idea for Labs was actually born specifically out of the pace of content production by LTT. Because it's so hard to produce meaningful content all the time, the next thing they came up with was to have their own source of information. It's a way differentiate LTT from the rest, by conducting testing at a scale nobody else does. 

 

However, with that, I think Linus may have tried to bite more than he can chew. I also think that he wants to do too many things at the same time. It would have made more sense to start by focusing on testing stations for specific product categories - like CPUs, GPUs, PSUs - first, instead of trying to do all right here and now.

 

I've seen similar mistakes done by other entrepreneurs who failed to understand the scale of what they wanted to do. You can only eat an elephant one bite at a time.

 

 

[Loopers]

12 minutes ago, mikaelus said:

spending obscene amounts of money on often comical projects

Do you run around complaining about the obscene amount of money Apple spent on designing and building Apple Park? You see Linus when you should be seeing LMG. Each and every video goes through planning and approval prior to us seeing it. To be blunt... get over it.  That's how business works.

Every video is likely run through a series of meetings and risk assessments. Linus has demonstrated in a video (I think?) this year their highest-paid videos. A video including livestreams can pay upwards of $100,000. They likely have a base margin of ROI they expect after expenses no matter how extreme. What you consider stupid like clickbaity titles... just works with the youtube algorithm and so many creators have tried explaining this to their audience but most are too obtuse to comprehend or even try to understand.

20 minutes ago, mikaelus said:

dropping things around

Not sure about the relevance? It's a meme at this point. If it makes your audience laugh, it means you're connecting with them and viewer retention is important. It's the lifeblood of a video or in this case their bottom line.

 

21 minutes ago, mikaelus said:

building his own huge house etc

Again, relevance? Building his home was a mix of personal spending and making money doing it. That's just smart fucking business. If I could make money while renovating my place, I'd be a complete moron not to do it. I don't particularly enjoy the home video stuff, but you're straw-manning at this point. 

 

LTT is a brand. LMG is a media company. You watch an (at the time) CEO who is human and like all of us try to have fun while compartmentalizing fun with the business for video... for entertainment. It so happens he built a business that is beneficial to him and his employees. What I've witnessed is many of his "supposedly" fantastic community act envious of what he can do and though I agree it can rub you the wrong way setting up unrealistic setups in his home most of us can ever afford, it's business.

 

 

[Drazil100]

2 minutes ago, mikaelus said:

I don't think there's necessarily a monetary motivation there per se but Linus himself mentioned many times how expensive the entire endeavor is and how it needs to pay for itself sooner or later. 

 

In fact, I think the idea for Labs was actually born specifically out of the pace of content production by LTT. Because it's so hard to produce meaningful content all the time, the next thing they came up with was their own source of information. It's a way differentiate LTT from the rest, by conducting testing at a scale nobody else does. 

 

However, with that, I think Linus may have tried to bite more than he can chew. I also think that he wants to do too many things at the same time. It would have made more sense to start by focusing on testing stations for specific product categories - like CPUs, GPUs, PSUs - first, instead of trying to do all right here and now.

 

I've seen similar mistakes done by other entrepreneurs who failed to understand the scale of what they wanted to do. If you want to eat an elephant you can only do it one bite at a time.

 

 

I think it has the potential to be cost neutral if Linus doesn't intend to make back the initial investment. If his goal was to burn the initial investment and then have Labs pay for it's future expensive I definitely think it's possible... That said I don't see Linus making back that initial investment from Labs itself. It would have to be made back from his other revenue streams.

[mikaelus]

7 minutes ago, Loopers said:

Do you run around complaining about the obscene amount of money Apple spent on designing and building Apple Park? You see Linus when you should be seeing LMG. Each and every video goes through planning and approval prior to us seeing it. To be blunt... get over it.  That's how business works.

 

Buddy, we're not talking about Apple. We're talking about perceptions of a guy whom you describe as frugal and who, at the same time, has very expensive habits on camera. So it looks hypocritical. That's all. 

 

7 minutes ago, Loopers said:

Not sure about the relevance? It's a meme at this point. If it makes your audience laugh, it means you're connecting with them and viewer retention is important. It's the lifeblood of a video or in this case their bottom line.

 

As explained above. It'd disingenuous to run videos "I dropped a $10k CPU!" and then whine about a few hundred bucks for rerunning testing of a product. At the very least it reeks of inauthenticity. In essence then Linus is a completely different person on and off camera.

 

7 minutes ago, Loopers said:

Again, relevance? Building his home was a mix of personal spending and making money doing it. That's just smart fucking business. If I could make money while renovating my place, I'd be a complete moron not to do it. I don't particularly enjoy the home video stuff, but you're straw-manning at this point. 

 

And again. It's all about perceptions. Bloke building a multimillion dollar mansion moaning about a few hundred bucks to do his own job properly looks about as good as Enron's CFO roughing up a cabbie over a 70 cent tip on a taxi fare.

[WallacEngineering]

8 minutes ago, mikaelus said:

I don't think there's necessarily a monetary motivation there per se

 

There definitely wasn't

 

Steve expressed in the very beginning of the first video that he assumed he would loose money over this ordeal.

 

Why? Because he is damaging relationships with fellow tech tubers as well as very powerful, wealthy, and more influential people than himself.

 

Hes probably in complete shock and awe at what is happening right now. When is the last time you heard of someone say...

 

Taking on a big powerful company like Coca-Cola in court and actually coming out with a win? Like a single individual feels they have been wronged by Coca-Cola and actually wins their case?

[OldGuard]

1 hour ago, Loopers said:

I feel like I need to preface this with -- I believe he should have retested and it was lazy not to. I'm with Steve in calling out LMG except for his lazy reporting and omitting pertinent information had he put some effort in would have avoided a lot of drama. I'm a long-time viewer of both of them.

 

This is the problem with his audience. Many don't seem to understand how business works. His employees are an expense, and delegating a task is money. His audience is a bit obtuse, so what you see is a dumbed-down version of "I don't like the product and don't want to waste more money on talking about it." People with parasocial relationships with LTT blur the lines.

 

So many of you think it's HIS money out of pocket when it's LMG money. It's not his and any expense is a business expense. You could tell from the video with Adam he wasn't a fan of the product, but with a struggle for video ideas after 10 years you'll push yourself to do shit you're not passionate about. The WAN show when he said that, not that it excuses it or that I'm trying to make excuses, but he had covid and both he and Luke explained he feels like garbage and it was going to be a short show. It was a perfect storm of feeling like shit and discussing a product he clearly felt was stupid and he's entitled to that opinion considering its price.

 

I have to assume you're young or inexperienced. I've bolded the part you're overlooking in your statement. At 100 employees at let's say $65,000 a year and we know many upper management are paid more. That's 6.5 million in salary per year before you account for running costs. So as we've seen Linus struggle to connect with his audience on a personal level, many fail to understand the importance of ROI.

 

 

 

You sir are missing the entire point and have strayed away from the context of ethics and integrity.

Just look at the comment below. Even though it was said in the context of the Billet Labs part of this mess, nevertheless if there is an internal policy to do the right thing then why not just do it?

 

Is there a workflow to follow that guides when to use said policy? Or is it on a case by case basis.. For these X things we do the right thing and for these Y ones we let slide until caught or called out.  Or did that 'do the right thing' policy came into existence when this entire thing happened?

[mikaelus]

1 minute ago, WallacEngineering said:

 

There definitely wasn't

 

Steve expressed in the very beginning of the first video that he assumed he would loose money over this ordeal.

 

Why? Because he is damaging relationships with fellow tech tubers as well as very powerful, wealthy, and more influential people than himself.

 

Hes probably in complete shock and awe at what is happening right now. When is the last time you heard of someone say...

 

Taking on a big powerful company like Coca-Cola in court and actually coming out with a win? Like a single individual feels they have been wronged by Coca-Cola and actually wins their case?

Errm, this was a discussion about Labs, not Steve's video  

 

But I agree that Steve didn't do it for the money either.

[WallacEngineering]

Just now, mikaelus said:

Errm, this was a discussion about Labs, not Steve's video  

 

But I agree that Steve didn't do it for the money either.

Oh, my bad, I screwed up lol .

 

Can't keep track of this s*** anymore lol

[Drazil100]

4 minutes ago, WallacEngineering said:

Oh, my bad, I screwed up lol .

 

Can't keep track of this s*** anymore lol

Doesn't help that his topic got merged into this thread.

[Loopers]

 

2 minutes ago, mikaelus said:

"I dropped a $10k CPU!"

I don't believe (in that video) it was intentional. Not sure how you compare using expensive hardware in a video to a business decision from a CEO when considering ROI. You're reaching here.

 

6 minutes ago, mikaelus said:

And again. It's all about perceptions

I don't entirely disagree with you here, but you're conflating Linus as a person and LMG as a business. Most homes in B.C are multi-million, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make other than repeatedly pointing out it's a "mansion." 

Building his "mansion" is Linus while moaning about doing his job properly is LMG CEO thinking ROI on a stupid product. I will once again insist I wholeheartedly agree with you though even if he lost money, he was lazy and should have retested. It was a dick move.

[Loopers]

16 minutes ago, OldGuard said:

You sir are missing the entire point.

Just look at the comment below. Even though it was said in the context of the Billet Labs part of this mess, nevertheless if there is an internal policy to do the right thing then why not just do it?

 

Is there a workflow to follow that guides when to use said policy? Or is it on a case by case basis.. For these things we do the right thing and for these we let slide until caught or called out.  Or did that 'do the right thing' policy came into existence when this entire thing happened?

With the utmost respect, did you miss the part where I said I agree he should have retested? I'm speaking as a CEO myself when it comes to ROI. There is also a secondary problem with someone who at the time was CEO and can make decisions that skirt those policies, but I'm wavering into a territory of conjecture here.

 

I'm saying CEO me understand why he didn't. Viewer me says he was an idiot for not doing it and this is why you should always follow those internal policies to keep yourself honest. They exist for a reason.

[mikaelus]

7 minutes ago, Loopers said:

 

I don't believe (in that video) it was intentional. Not sure how you compare using expensive hardware in a video to a business decision from a CEO when considering ROI. You're reaching here.

 

I don't entirely disagree with you here, but you're conflating Linus as a person and LMG as a business. Most homes in B.C are multi-million, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make other than repeatedly pointing out it's a "mansion." 

Building his "mansion" is Linus while moaning about doing his job properly is LMG CEO thinking ROI on a stupid product. I will once again insist I wholeheartedly agree with you though even if he lost money, he was lazy and should have retested. It was a dick move.

Doing his job properly should have nothing to do with ROI. THAT is one of the reasons why Linus was bashed so mercilessly by the community.

[mikaelus]

14 minutes ago, WallacEngineering said:

Oh, my bad, I screwed up lol .

 

Can't keep track of this s*** anymore lol

Yeah, and I tried to make it a new topic but they merged it with this one in like 3 seconds... eh...

[Loopers]

16 minutes ago, mikaelus said:

Doing his job properly should have nothing to do with ROI.

It has everything to do with ROI and he probably shouldn't have even done the original water block video if he hated it. I saw the original video and as a viewer cannot figure out why he would do a video for something he hated so much.

 

16 minutes ago, mikaelus said:

was bashed so mercilessly by the community

A bit of a side note/rant: The same community responsible for the suicide of a kid?  A community that bashed so mercilessly over the lack of retesting, yet the same community is divided on Steve's inability to do his job properly.

[Silvy]

1 hour ago, TechDeckCAD said:

This isn't a matter of agree/disagree. The Code of Ethics from SPJ makes this abundantly clear that seeking the other side isn't a necessity to a journalist's job. The confusion is people assume that because it's listed as a guideline, that therefore it must be a rule, but that's not the reality. Just as there are journalists who seek responses from the ones facing allegations, there are journalists that don't reach out. That's the whole point, it's a guideline/nice-to-have but not an imperative.

 

What matters more is that Burke did exactly what the Code of Ethics specified as far as:

- Providing reasoning as to why he made the decisions

- Outlined unavoidable conflict(s) (which people seem to misunderstand as well. The point is yes, avoid conflict of interest, but if you cannot, you MUST disclose that there is a conflict if you report on the story)

- Vetted his information with not just Billet Labs, but LTT's own timeline as well

I think you are missing my point. It's not like I am saying this is some sort of rule a person must follow. My point is, there is a reason it's something that is usually done when journalists are actually good at their job and are attempting to be unbiased. It's something that allows the viewers to make up their own views based on the information and evidence. If you don't contact the other side for comment, all it does is come off like you don't care about what the other side has to say, you just want to make them look bad.

I couldn't give a crap if it's not a rule, that's not the point. And it doesn't make what I am saying incorrect. It's biased reporting, plain and simple.

[mikaelus]

12 minutes ago, Loopers said:

It has everything to do with ROI and he probably shouldn't have even done the original water block video if he hated it. I saw the original video and as a viewer cannot figure out why he would do a video for something he hated so much.

 

Because it's his responsibility. Which is why he got steamrolled by the community.

[mikaelus]

13 minutes ago, Loopers said:

A bit of a side note/rant: The same community responsible for the suicide of a kid?  A community that bashed so mercilessly over the lack of retesting, yet the same community is divided on Steve's inability to do his job properly.

Please, this community has millions of people.

[Loopers]

4 minutes ago, mikaelus said:

Please, this community has millions of people.

Phew, I'm glad we cleared that up. If it was only 10's of thousands that would change things. Oh, never mind, as of yesterday, there were apparently posts on Reddit threatening Linus's kids. Maybe the community should have some accountability.

[poochyena]

Noticed LTT is down another 100k. They were at 15.6m last week, but now at 15.4m

[Silvy]

1 hour ago, WallacEngineering said:

@Silvy @CaptBananaPants @TechDeckCAD

 

Let me makes this about 1000 times easier by copy-pasting my last response so I don't have to repeat myself yet again:

 

First quote:

 

Im going to say this one more time and then Im done repeating myself.

 

GN has TRIED to reach out to Linus several times regarding the inaccuracy and testing methodology issues several times over the past year or two. LMG blatantly ignored the attempts because they were critiques and didn't want to give GN the time of day.

 

GN eventually gave up on reaching out. Then they see companies and hardware unboxed getting ignored too and decided it was time that something was done about it.

 

Just because GN happens to be in the same game as LMG doesn't mean he did it for profits. He has been talking about LMG issues little by little in videos for like a year and a half now.

 

Basically what has happened is Steve has decided that things have gone too far and he needs to step in and make it public. I would have done exactly the same thing regardless of the friendship I had with said channel.

 

Have you guys forgotten all the times Steve has come to be on LTT and have fun with a wacky PC experiment?

 

Figure it out already. LMG was going to be called out sooner or later by someone big enough to have an impact. Who better but Steve to do so? This situation is entirely obvious and easy to understand, stop trying to make it complicated.

 

Later on, Second quote:

 

Ya, Steve made a direct hit on LMG because LMG is currently damaging the community.

 

He even expressed in the beginning of the very first video that he is uncomfortable with the situation and he really does not want to have to do this. You did watch it, didn't you?

 

Steve is a 100% factual and ethics guy first. You would understand that if you have watched him and his content for as long as I have. Ive been watching LMG, GN, and JaysTwoCents for over a decade. Hardware Unboxed is the newer channel for me. Steve and Linus are so completely opposite people that comparing them is like trying to divide by the number 0 and then the world implodes lol.

 

Steve really was excited for his bud Linus when Linus first announced labs. You should have seen that video he was genuinely stoked on the idea of the biggest tech tuber having access to real, genuine, accurate data.

 

And to you guys who believe LMG deserves an easier time because they are more Entertainment-focused? You couldn't be more wrong. Do any of you even remember the early days of LMG? Do you guys even remember the original reason the channel was founded? Its in the title guys - LINUS TECH TIPS - He has always wanted to provide useful consumer advice to his audience first and foremost. Otherwise it never would have existed to begin with.

 

Even if it is meant to be more entertaining than other options, 75%+ of this entire company is still reviewing tech products in different tech categories and telling consumers whether or not they should buy it.

 

And what has LMG been failing at lately? Oh, right - providing helpful consumer advice on tech products. Literally the main and fundamental idea behind LMG is what they have been doing wrong.

 

As for the Madison allegations - unfortunately none of us will ever know. Its a quite serious subject and information on the matter will only be shared with those who need to know. But you need to remember that many people make baseless allegations against big companies and celebrities all the time to try and get money of them.

 

How many women have come forward with sexual assault allegations against rock stars this year alone? You realize in 99% of those situations that woman wanted it and asked for it, and then turn arounds and claims sexual assault later. We aren't stupid, we know better.

 

Just like how gashing your own leg open to avoid going to work is completely bulls*** and anyone who believes that needs to go back to school immediately. Wanna know why its BS? Because there are other jobs in the world, nobody is forced to work at LMG. If you don't like where you work, try... IDK... MAYBE FIND A NEW JOB YOU MORON!

 

There you go, some quick copies and pastes, this should make things quite a bit clearer.

I am more specifically talking about reaching out about the Billet situation. Having inaccuracies in videos is one thing and I can understand not reaching out for comment in regards to that situation given he had already tried in the past. Fair. But, given the situation with Billet... about the block being sold and how it occured, that is what I am saying he should have reached out about. Because everyone blew this situation way out of proportion due to HIS inaccuracy (which is irony) about the situation because Billet didn't tell him the full story and he didn't bother to contact Linus. And just because Linus wouldn't comment about inaccuracies in videos doesn't mean he wouldn't have commented about this which is way more important to clear up.

To be frank, most people didn't give a crap about the inaccuracies, they cared way more about the block being stolen and sold. That was what most people were very angry about, practically foaming at the mouth attacking LMG over it. Obviously, now it's also about the Madison allegations that came out among the chaos. 

[OldGuard]

14 minutes ago, poochyena said:

Noticed LTT is down another 100k. They were at 15.6m last week, but now at 15.4m

[Kitsunelaine]

I just want to say, isn't it weird that the 24/7 Tech Tips stream is still up? That literally only exists so that LTT is permanently pushed to the top of the subscriber feed on the left panel on your Youtube home page. Surely halting all of their stuff would mean halting that, too?

[TechDeckCAD]

28 minutes ago, Silvy said:

I think you are missing my point. It's not like I am saying this is some sort of rule a person must follow. My point is, there is a reason it's something that is usually done when journalists are actually good at their job and are attempting to be unbiased. It's something that allows the viewers to make up their own views based on the information and evidence. If you don't contact the other side for comment, all it does is come off like you don't care about what the other side has to say, you just want to make them look bad.

I couldn't give a crap if it's not a rule, that's not the point. And it doesn't make what I am saying incorrect. It's biased reporting, plain and simple.

I'm not missing your point at all, in fact, the last sentence you wrote makes this even more confusing. If you acknowledge that it's not a rule, nor imperative to fair and accurate reporting, then by extension, it cannot be emblematic of biased reporting. Otherwise, by your logic, any journalist that chooses not to speak to an accused entity is inherently biased, which is ridiculous. My point is that unless this is a hardline rule that every journalist has to follow, I'm not going to castigate a journalist for not talking to the accused, as long as they explain their methodology and provide transparency into their decision-making, which Steve has rightfully done in both of his videos.

 

I really have to ask, what did GN do that makes you think it's biased reporting? The information (that includes LMG's own employees on the record in their own video!) he acquired showed that LMG/LTT had the propensity to make erroneous claims, oftentimes using heavily erroneous testing methodologies that goes against what their engineers have claimed. And their errors affecting conduct with Pwnage and Billet Labs such that it led to misconceptions about how their product performs. Like is Steve just never supposed to bring this up ever? You've also lost sight about LMG/LTT lying about having spoken to Billet about making them whole prior to GN's first video. We factually know that this wasn't the case, and yet, you're dying on the hill of wanting GN to talk to LMG/LTT.

 

Using the fact that journalists speak to the accused/alleged, also ignores the fact that the majority of them either get a "we decline to comment" or flat out ignored by the entity altogether (I recall reading a resource from a reporter who said that they report this usually when they send an email blast and don't hear back an hour or so, so then you have to ask yourself "is this really emblematic of fair reporting? If you ask me, this is far worse than if you never addressed them at all"). This adds nothing new to supposed fairness.

[SuperGnu]

11 hours ago, hmfaysal said:

Well, so if I get this right
 

Gamers Nexus	Linus Tech Tips
Talk about the mistake in weekly news roundup	Posts a pinned comment about the mistake
Make a video if severe

 

So what happens to the video with the mistake in it at GN?

 

They usually put in a video edit in the video explaining why the issue is wrong and then cut back to the video and continue it. But it is rare as they do not make as many mistakes.