Gamers Nexus alleges LMG has insufficient ethics and integrity

[TechDeckCAD]

1 minute ago, MaxIsJoe said:

As Linus mentioned before, They had every opportunity to go to them directly and voice their concerns and maybe even offer help on updating their testing standards to avoid this whole issue; but they have chosen not to, and instead did what is the equivalent of a hit piece on LTT and utilized that power of internet mobs to try and force a change without thinking too much about the consequences of it.

So when LTT decides to call a product crap, does he go to companies to offer critiques on how to make their products better?

 

It's not GN's job to go and tell people how to do things better. It's his job to point out when things are wrong and then allow the company/person the freedom to decide how they're going to react after the wrongs are pointed out.

 

Calling it a hit piece is so strange and taking it extremely personally.

[AlTech]

1 minute ago, Pitboy64 said:

So ... just last week, I pulled the switch and threw $77 Canadian at joining Floatplane for the year, pretty much only for LTT membership, so I could enjoy a better Wan Show chat experience.

... well ... that wasnt such good timing ...
at this moment I donno if I really wanna even watch Wan Show at all.

You may wish to get a refund before you can't cancel.

[uberDoward]

Linus.  Man.

 

I've been watching you since the Langley house.  I'm begging you, step back, take a walk, and get some air.   I've followed you for years because you constantly talked about ethics, doing right by your people, doing right by the community, and building tomorrow to be better than today.

 

You've stumbled.  It happens.   It sucks when it happens, and it can hurt.  But pain is one hell of a teacher, man.  If you fall, then get back up, a better person for having learned.

 

Steve's right - this was a dead simple layup that should have been a "We hear the complaints around accuracy, and here's what we're doing to make it better".

 

Remember your principles.   You've built something fantastic, and your vision for what LTT could be is still there - but don't let the destination become more important than the journey.  The end shouldn't justify the means.   How you build it, is just as important as what you build.

 

You're better than the response earlier on here.   Linus of 10 years ago would have torn that response apart, in my opinion.

 

Take a breath, get back up, and be better.

[nekollx]

On 8/14/2023 at 5:25 PM, LinusTech said:

There won't be a big WAN Show segment about this or anything. Most of what I have to say, I've already said, and I've done so privately.

To Steve, I expressed my disappointment that he didn't go through proper journalistic practices in creating this piece. He has my email and number (along with numerous other members of our team) and could have asked me for context that may have proven to be valuable (like the fact that we didn't 'sell' the monoblock, but rather auctioned it for charity due to a miscommunication... AND the fact that while we haven't sent payment yet, we have already agreed to compensate Billet Labs for the cost of their prototype). There are other issues, but I've told him that I won't be drawn into a public sniping match over this and that I'll be continuing to move forward in good faith as part of 'Team Media'. When/if he's ready to do so again I'll be ready.

To my team (and my CEO's team, but realistically I was at the helm for all of these errors, so I need to own it), I stressed the importance of diligence in our work because there are so many eyes on us. We are going through some growing pains - we've been very public about them in the interest of transparency - and it's clear we have some work to do on internal processes and communication. We have already been doing a lot of work internally to clean up our processes, but these things take time. Rome wasn't built in a day, but that's no excuse for sloppiness.

Now, for my community, all I can say is the same things I always say. We know that we're not perfect. We wear our imperfection on our sleeves in the interest of ensuring that we stay accountable to you. But it's sad and unfortunate when this transparency gets warped into a bad thing. The Labs team is hard at work hard creating processes and tools to generate data that will benefit all consumers - a work in progress that is very much not done and that we've communicated needs to be treated as such. Do we have notes under some videos? Yes. Is it because we are striving for transparency/improvement? Yeah... What we're doing hasn't been in many years, if ever.. and we would make a much larger correction if the circumstances merited it. Listing the wrong amount of cache on a table for a CPU review is sloppy, but given that our conclusions are drawn based on our testing, not the spec sheet, it doesn't materially change the recommendation. That doesn't mean these things don't matter. We've set KPIs for our writing/labs team around accuracy, and we are continually installing new checks and balances to ensure that things continue to get better. If you haven't seen the improvement, frankly I wonder if you're really looking for it... The thoroughness that we managed on our last handful of GPU videos is getting really incredible given the limited time we have for these embargoes. I'm REALLY excited about what the future will hold.

 

With all of that said, I still disagree that the Billet Labs video (not the situation with the return, which I've already addressed above) is an 'accuracy' issue. It's more like I just read the room wrong. We COULD have re-tested it with perfect accuracy, but to do so PROPERLY - accounting for which cases it could be installed in (none) and which radiators it would be plumbed with (again... mystery) would have been impossible... and also didn't affect the conclusion of the video... OR SO I THOUGHT...

 

I wanted to evaluate it as a product, and as a product, IF it could manage to compete with the temperatures of the highest end blocks on the planet, it still wouldn't make sense to buy... so from my point of view, re-testing it and finding out that yes, it did in fact run cooler made no difference to the conclusion, so it didn't really make a difference.

 

Adam and I were talking about this today. He advocated for re-testing it regardless of how non-viable it was as a product at the time and I think he expressed really well today why it mattered. It was like making a video about a supercar. It doesn't mater if no one watching will buy it. They just wanna see it rip.  I missed that, but it wasn't because I didn't care about the consumer.. it was because I was so focused on how this product impacted a potential buyer. Either way, clearly my bad, but my intention was never to harm Billet Labs. I specifically called out their incredible machining skills because I wanted to see them create something with a viable market for it and was hoping others would appreciate the fineness of the craftsmanship even if the product was impractical. I still hope they move forward building something else because they obviously have talent and I've watched countless niche water cooling vendors come and go. It's an astonishingly unforgiving market.

 

Either way, I'm sorry I got the community's priorities mixed-up on this one, and that we didn't show the Billet in the best light. Our intention wasn't to hurt anyone. We wanted no one to buy it (because it's an egregious waste of money no matter what temps it runs at) and we wanted Billet to make something marketable (so they can, y'know, eat).

 

With all of this in mind, it saddens me how quickly the pitchforks were raised over this. It also comes across a touch hypocritical when some basic due diligence could have helped clarify much of it. I have a LONG history of meeting issues head on and I've never been afraid to answer questions, which lands me in hot water regularly, but helps keep me in tune with my peers and with the community. The only reason I can think of not to ask me is because my honest response might be inconvenient. 

 

We can test that... with this post. Will the "It was a mistake (a bad one, but a mistake) and they're taking care of it" reality manage to have the same reach? Let's see if anyone actually wants to know what happened. I hope so, but it's been disheartening seeing how many people were willing to jump on us here. Believe it or not, I'm a real person and so is the rest of my team. We are trying our best, and if what we were doing was easy, everyone would do it. Today sucks.

 

Thanks for reading this.

I dunno but it seems to me the logical olive branch would have been to fly billit out to ltt lab. You have made it a point of pride you have sone if the best manufacturing and testing equipment in the field. You screwed up majorly so let the billit guy use your fancy gear to recreate the prototype 

[e22big]

Since everyone is so focused on their Billet Lab issue recently, I've went back to check the LTT video in question again and you know what? I've found that they already updated the resulted on that video - over a month ago, in the pinned comment with the last edit date clearly shown.

 

"Hey! After a bit of tinkering post-video we saw improved thermals with the Monoblock. Running Cinebench and MSI Afterburner for 30 minutes we saw temps peak at CPU: 85 C on the 12900KS GPU Hotspot: 87 C on 4090. (remember this is the without using the proper kit for the 4090) What do you think about this MonoBlock? Let us know below! "

 

In addition to this, I would like to point out that Linus:

 

- Never said it was a bad product, just was so complex that it's probably not for everyone but the most seasoned PC builder

 

- That the Billet Lab themselves said it could work on the 4090, just don't know how well. Their initial conclusion of the video is that it wasn't very well but they did retest it and found it to be working as intent with some tinkering.

 

- The most difficult part of the set up isn't even the GPU mounting, it's the CPU and motherboard that they have to laser cut to fit (probably not entirely necessary but you would probably not going to have too much of a fun time mounting it either)

 

This does not lessen the severity of the LMG mislabeling the Monoclock prototype and selling it at auction, nor any of the criticisms that GN've made to LMG content, but it should be known that the LMG did correct their data at the end of the day and I would like to point out that the conclusion of the video isn't as bad as most people seem to make it out to be.

 

Mod please allow me to make this separated post because I think it's important to give people the context of the issue.

 

And godamit Steve, this is why you've reached out to both side to get the full picture before publishing the story. Even if it wasn't the main points you are trying to make

 

 

[ZombieMan762]

4 minutes ago, HiTechLowSpec said:

Yet people can have biases without even a requirement for interest, conflicted or otherwise. People can have no interest in an outcome, but still have their own bias. Everyone has biases. If they say they're "totally unbiased", they're either lying or blinded to them.

 

The problem with conflict of interest, is that when it can be assumed that someone has one through business dealings, there is an appearance of bias. It doesn't matter if the bias is real or not. Perception becomes reality. The same could be said for GN and their advertising spots.

 

If you wanted to put your money where your mouth is, you wouldn't take money for any products that you have any relationship with. The problem with that, is that you would need to be independently wealthy. Or living off the land and providing for your own survival. Probably wouldn't have time to make YouTube videos though.

 

I have zero problem with paid advertisement spots or paid in video ad reads. I do think the channel accepting paid ad reads needs to CLEARLY mark in video what is paid and what is not. I feel the same for all social media. If you are receiving compensation for posting anything you need to disclose that up front or clearly distinguish what parts of the video are paid and which are not or in the case of fully sponsored videos they should be labeled as ads that is clearly distinguished from normal content. 

[AlTech]

1 minute ago, CameronP90 said:

Can probably film it, edit it several times, then have it on that youtube thing about releasing it to the public while having errors and misrepresented facts etc etc and another 20 minutes of a half baked apology and still kick themselves. Is anyone buying into this clown show still?

Side note, anyone wanna bet that BL, gets a new block built, has it tested for whatever GPU and probably never sends it to LTT? Can we do that here?

They said they've already ordered a new one and it should be ready within the next few weeks.

[e22big]

8 minutes ago, TechDeckCAD said:

Once again, this is objectively wrong to the point of being disingenuous. I have to wonder if people are reading what Billet Labs said or if they're just being obtuse and making erroneous assumptions based on the review itself.

 

There's a gigantic difference between saying "it works on 4090" vs. (the actual real words) "it might work on a 4090, we haven't tested it ourselves, but you are welcome to try it."

 

 

 

 

"you are welcome to try it"

[Drazil100]

11 minutes ago, UTiii said:

Why has Stalker Steve been cataloging any typos or mistakes LTT have made over the last few months?

 

Don’t you find it odd the benevolent stalker Steve has been cataloging typos / mistakes like having the incorrect cache etc going back months! 
 

this dude has been sat there for months sweating profusely watching LTT videos on repeat highlighting any mistakes.

 

don’t y’all find that a bit weird from Steve the snake?

 

and then when he has something “juicy” releases his vid. And the something juicy could have been cleared up with a phone call given Linus probably didn’t even know about it.

I agree with @Nekosama. Random insults being interjected serves no purpose. Without them this is a pretty valid take that I would respect. Unfortunately by adding these random insults you are clearly showing that this post was fueled by hate and I am not really willing to take you seriously because of it.

[TechDeckCAD]

3 minutes ago, e22big said:

"you are welcome to try it"

I see, so you're just going to be the type of person that picks out whatever suits your agenda, goalpost shift, and ignore all the other phrases that directly contradicts your agenda.

 

Disingenuous to a fault.

[poochyena]

17 minutes ago, LinusAuctionTips said:

For reference, I have no issue with the framework investment. He has been very clear about his investments and I understand the separation of the entity Linus Media Group vs Linus Sebastian the person, and why the assets of the two are in separate pools. I take more issue with the appearance of impropriety regarding the ASUS reviews.

I agree. I think the framework investment is fine. I still like he invested in them.

[WallacEngineering]

Well I can't keep up with this discussion anymore. Took the girlfriend out to dinner come back to find this thread has grown to over 200 pages. Holy s*** guys how can it be this complicated?

 

This is very simple - Linus, LMG, and LTT have been making data errors for quite some time now, a mistake here or there is no big deal but these are massive mistakes and they are repeated time and time again, with no QA effort whatsoever by any LMG staff. LMG is also guilty of a few unethical practices and mistakes simply because of how large the company has grown and the fact that they are so huge now you can't keep track of everything.

 

Then we have the fact that LMG is rushing to put out 5-6 videos a day, a pace which is obviously way too much for them and they can't handle it. Several attempts were made to bring the issues to LMGs attention with no success at which point GN took matters into their own hands and made the issues public because LMG has so much content that almost nobody - probably not even people at LMG - can keep track of it all.

 

Linus's response to the criticism and video was appalling and childish, calling further into question - the ethics and focus of LMG as a company, making them seem even more like they no longer care about consumers and instead care about video output and making money. Steve expressed his disappointment in this response.

 

Almost everyone here agress that LMG is making big mistakes and unethical decisions, yeah? So in the end, Linus needs to suck it up, apologize, promise to reform the company's practices, and then do exactly that. Am I missing anything? Are we all caught up now?

 

Ok then, quit arguing like children lol

[ZombieMan762]

Just now, AlTech said:

They said they've already ordered a new one and it should be ready within the next few weeks.

 

They are not ordering a new one. They don't order prototype parts. 

[Ajmal Zahir]

I feel like the second Gamers Nexus video needs its own post, combining everything into this doesn't make the discussion cohesive. Linus' statement here clearly made it seem like they weren't that wrong until the company came in and explained they were just left on seen until the video and LTT still hasn't returned their GPU.

[Arcaxon]

I'm very dissapointed, Linus I have been following the channel for 10 years. Your response is terrible please reconsider and work on improving you and your company. You used to be so much more genuine, but recently you have gotten pretty bad with Ego, do as I say not as I do type of stuff. Your advice in the past has been incredible but it's clear you don't follow it yourself. You're just human after all and this is a lot. Take a break, think about all this and come back to it fresh. Listen to friends.

I don't wanna see LMG continue this way, I used to be a Floatplane subscriber, I had to cut back but wanted to return. Sadly it seems like that might not be a good idea.
Please do better.

[Cantisque]

3 minutes ago, uberDoward said:

Linus.  Man.

 

I've been watching you since the Langley house.  I'm begging you, step back, take a walk, and get some air.   I've followed you for years because you constantly talked about ethics, doing right by your people, doing right by the community, and building tomorrow to be better than today.

 

You've stumbled.  It happens.   It sucks when it happens, and it can hurt.  But pain is one hell of a teacher, man.  If you fall, then get back up, a better person for having learned.

 

Steve's right - this was a dead simply layup that should have been a "We hear the complaints around accuracy, and here's what we're doing to make it better".

 

Remember your principles.   You've built something fantastic, and your vision for what LTT could be is still there - but don't let the destination become more important than the journey.  The end shouldn't justify the means.   How you build it, is just as important as what you build.

 

You're better than the response earlier on here.   Linus of 10 years ago would have torn that response apart, in my opinion.

 

Take a breath, get back up, and be better.

This echoes my sentiments exactly.

 

Essentially boils down to disappointment overall. Disappointment in the quality of your review videos and disappointment in how thin-skinned you are, success has definitely changed you.

[coopa]

6 minutes ago, e22big said:

Since everyone is so focused on their Billet Lab issue recently, I've went back to check the LTT video in question again and you know what? I've found that they already updated the resulted on that video - over a month ago, in the pinned comment with the last edit date clearly shown.

 

"Hey! After a bit of tinkering post-video we saw improved thermals with the Monoblock. Running Cinebench and MSI Afterburner for 30 minutes we saw temps peak at CPU: 85 C on the 12900KS GPU Hotspot: 87 C on 4090. (remember this is the without using the proper kit for the 4090) What do you think about this MonoBlock? Let us know below! "

 

In addition to this, I would like to point out that Linus:

 

- Never said it was a bad product, just was so complex that it's probably not for everyone but the most seasoned PC builder

 

- That the Billet Lab themselves said it could work on the 4090, just don't know how well. Their initial conclusion of the video is that it wasn't very well but they did retest it and found it to be working as intent with some tinkering.

 

- The most difficult part of the set up isn't even the GPU mounting, it's the CPU and motherboard that they have to laser cut to fit (probably not entirely necessary but you would probably not going to have too much of a fun time mounting it either)

 

 

You posted a comment similar to this 20-30 minutes ago so I will point this out again:
The monoblock was never designed to fit a 4090. Despite Billet sending a 3090 Ti (the graphics card that it was intended to fit) and the monoblock for the GPU, LTT tested it with a 4090 out of ineptitude or laziness. The fact that LTT could have a marginally better result while it was still on the wrong GPU with a 1mm gap is immaterial. They tested a monoblock on a GPU it was never intended to be used on, with far, far higher temps than it would have had if installed as intended.

 

Linus explicitly said it was a bad product on the June 30th, 2023 WAN Show:
"Like it's a cool product. But it's a bad product."

 

These points have been refuted. LTT did a bad test and then doubled and tripled down on bad testing methodology.

[1982 Original]

7 minutes ago, coopa said:

 Here is what Linus said on the billet monoblock:
"Like it's a cool product. But it's a bad product."

That's explicit from the WAN Show, timestamping it from the GN video (29m48s, if it decides to embed instead):
https://youtu.be/FGW3TPytTjc?t=1788

 

Billet said they had no guarantees on how it would perform on a 4090 and that it was designed to work on a 3090 Ti. 
LMG testing on a 4090, positioning that the product was bad, and then refusing to re-test after Billet was able to get a hold of a 4090, discuss how it was going to perform like trash on a 4090 because of the design changes (again, this monoblock was never designed to work on a 4090) and it had a massive 1 millimeter gap that would kill cooling performance, and LMG standing by the results is unconscionable on LMG's part.

 

 LMG tested a product incorrectly and stood by it. Period. There's no excusing them testing a product wrong when the manufacturer sent a GPU specific monoblock AND the required GPU to test it with. LMG apparently used or misplaced the 3090 Ti that Billet sent (apparently misplaced, because as of this time LMG STILL hasn't located it), and then tested the monoblock with the wrong GPU.

The whole production process where an LTT writer prepares a video, then Linus comes in for the shoot and fumbles through a project someone else prepared needs to end.  It just ends up with Linus stumbling through something he's seeing for the first time that was ill prepared in the first place.  The original Billet Labs video is a mess.  The motherboard was messed up and needed to be machined because they damaged the original board, the ram barely fit, the arrangement of parts blocked other parts, and it was the wrong GPU.  I know Linus is the face we all want to see, but it's not working. It's like trying to present someone else's work that you had no part of.  I hope the end result of all of this is that LMG starts taking more care with how they produce their videos.  If I was head of a start-up, I wouldn't send anything to LMG until more care is taken.

[Alexeygridnev1993]

19 minutes ago, Hazz3r said:

And this is exactly why many people have doubts about Terren’s actual role as CEO. If it’s just lip service and Linus doesn’t respect his leadership then what is even the point.

I always doubt it when the major shareholder appoints someone else as a CEO. Like, come on, property = real power, regardless of who is formally a CEO, who is in the board etc.

[MaxIsJoe]

1 minute ago, TechDeckCAD said:

So when LTT decides to call a product crap, does he go to companies to offer critiques on how to make their products better?

Well, yes?

 

Isn't that the whole point of the lab? When you do through testing of problems, you are giving smaller startups and companies free info on how to improve your product. And most of their reviews are good critiques on products that get released (Minus the videos from ShortCircuit)

However, in order for this to work, the labs need to update their testing standards, so they can become a trustworthy source for everyone to use, not just consumers.

 

 

[Drazil100]

7 minutes ago, Ajmal Zahir said:

I feel like the second Gamers Nexus video needs its own post, combining everything into this doesn't make the discussion cohesive. Linus' statement here clearly made it seem like they weren't that wrong until the company came in and explained they were just left on seen until the video and LTT still hasn't returned their GPU.

I disagree. Even split this topic would be really hard to follow. I sorted General by replies and this is the 3rd most replied to (non sticky) thread (4th if you include sticky threads) and all the other threads that beat it or come close were started in 2013. Splitting this would not make it any better.

Edit:
Also it would be harder to moderate 2 threads than it would be to moderate 1.

[Dohregard]

4 minutes ago, HiTechLowSpec said:

One thing I haven't seen anyone acknowledge is that Linus is part owner of LMG. The other half of that equation is also the CFO. When you're pointing the finger at Linus about the monetary concerns, that's not the whole of it. The fact that the CFO is also your spouse makes this even trickier to handle.

that's because it's not relevant to the allegations. She clearly had no input on any of what went wrong, and any pressure Linus feels doesn't permit him to behave in a way that seems unprofessional in the face of a very sincere and well thought out critique of his entire brand. Even a "We'll do better bro" would have been better, but now it kinda seems like anything said after is just damage control rather than true accountability which sucks. It'll blow over, but at the very least I hope to see something change for the better and for drama like this to not happen anymore. This isn't the first time bravado caused a huge issue...

[Tanks]

7 minutes ago, coopa said:

While there may be some element of drama, I am hopeful that the dialog continuing will put pressure on Linus and LMG to properly address these concerns rather than dismissing them and refusing to discuss them on the WAN show or further.

I strongly believe that most people are continuing this discussion in the hopes that it makes LMG leadership seriously assess the issues brought up by Steve and to give an honest response.

Agreed, the frustration is real because, for the most part, I really enjoyed his content. 

I am frustrated with their handling of the whole thing but benefits EVERYBODY if they realize their mistakes, address them, and do better in the future. 

[AlTech]

5 minutes ago, ZombieMan762 said:

 

They are not ordering a new one. They don't order prototype parts. 

They're having one built which is new.

[e22big]

3 minutes ago, coopa said:

You posted a comment similar to this 20-30 minutes ago so I will point this out again:
The monoblock was never designed to fit a 4090. Despite Billet sending a 3090 Ti (the graphics card that it was intended to fit) and the monoblock for the GPU, LTT tested it with a 4090 out of ineptitude or laziness. The fact that LTT could have a marginally better result while it was still on the wrong GPU with a 1mm gap is immaterial. They tested a monoblock on a GPU it was never intended to be used on, with far, far higher temps than it would have had if installed as intended.

 

Linus explicitly said it was a bad product on the June 30th, 2023 WAN Show:
"Like it's a cool product. But it's a bad product."

 

These points have been refuted. LTT did a bad test and then doubled and tripled down on bad testing methodology.

I've made a post about it just so it's more visible, admin just merge the post here