Gamers Nexus alleges LMG has insufficient ethics and integrity

[Saeumii]

14 minutes ago, Caphenning said:

I don’t see any evidence of that being true. The way he trashed the results when he did the test in a GPU that was the incorrect , then threw Billet under the bus, and now “doesn’t have the records” stinks too hard to ignore. This isn’t a simple mistake, this is an entire chain of events that people will concluding as they please. This is the internet, there is no presumption of innocence, and everyone serves as their own jury, including his sponsors. Linus always touts his honesty, he’s going to have to prove it at this point, because this all looks really bad on him.

"The way he trashed the results"

yes, it would've been better for him to properly test the water block. but he's made it very clear that the results wouldn't change his conclusion [there are cheaper options that offer the same performance] unless the block broke the laws of physics. he specifically praised their engineering quality in the video, so i don't think he had any ill will towards them. but yes, all we have at this point is speculation, beyond what information has already been shared. it'd be best for him to come out and clarify what happened and why, but i'm not holding my breath for that

 

this isn't relevant to the main point, but you mention he "doesn't have the records". what are you referring to?

[CaptBananaPants]

7 minutes ago, soysauceonrice said:

My biggest problem with Steve's Video is the fact that he relied on those old clips and didn't let them respond to his accusations directly.  Now, I've heard the arguments, and I've heard from Steve's response video how he says he doesn't HAVE to reach out to Linus for comment, and I don't buy it.  

 

He doesn't HAVE to do anything.  But he still should have.  If you go back to the original video Steve posted, he stated very specifically that Steve/GN was the one who suggested that the block could have been bought by a competitor.  This wasn't something Billet brought up, and Steve had no clue who actually bought the block.  He just threw out a wild hunch, and inserted it into the video.  Why ?  A lot of people defended not reaching out by saying Steve was just "reporting the facts" but this clearly was not factual.  He was editorializing and adding wild hunches/guesses into the video to sensationalize it even more.  You know who can figure out who the block was sold to ?  LMG.  It's fine to ask questions as a journalist.  But asking the question isn't enough -- you should actually try to answer the question.  If Steve really cared about who ultimately bought the block, he could have sent an email and asked.  If he insists on not trying to find an answer, then throwing in speculation of corporate espionage is inappropriate.  

 

I mean, in the same video where he questions LMG's conflict of interest, he totally ignores the fact that GN also has a massive conflict of interest because Linus and LMG are trying to move into his Youtube niche of in-depth technical reviews.  They are both investing significant $$$ into the same type of in-depth analysis, and it obviously benefits Steve and GN to hit LMG's credibility.  A cynic can point to his editorializing, combined with his refusal to allow LMG to respond to his accusations, as an attempt to maximize the damage to a competitor.  I don't understand how, for someone as cynical as Steve, that he has such a blind-spot.  

He's commented on the contents of Steve's video in the WAN show and other interviews. Asked and answered. 

I've got to wonder if LTT allowed Billet to comment on the video before sending it live. Or does LTT not need to allow things to cut both ways? Tbh, GN's video could be seen to be a review of LTT as a testing channel so there are parallels. 

[Battlenat0r]

I'm gonna do like Linus to make money...
Borrow stuff from people and ¨accidentally¨ auction it off because the person didn't need it, it was stored and unused for a while...
¨So buy, to accidentally auctioning it off, I didn't commit theft or fraud...¨ - Linus 2023

[Drazil100]

5 minutes ago, HiTechLowSpec said:

I worked for a Fortune 250 for over 20 years. You and I definitely have different definitions when it comes to "big corporations". LMG isn't very "big". 

While not how people typically define it. I feel there is a valid relative definition of big. For instance LMG is a big corporation for a YouTuber. I don't know many other YouTubers that reach quite the scale Linus does. Also LMG is a big corporation relative to what Linus is able to effectively manage.

While I am not arguing that we change the definition of "big corporation" to include these. This is worth considering when discussing LMG's scale. Being too big to effectively manage has a different number for every corporation. 

[aisle9]

Finally got around to watching it. Lots of good points surrounded by lots of more questionable ones, and a lot of sometimes gratuitous pile-driving. Not the first time Steve's called LMG out for increasingly "bad" behavior, and I'm not entirely surprised to see that behavior or Steve calling it out. LMG started heading the "five minute crafts" direction a while back. That's fine. That's a creative decision. You kind of had to be blind to not see this emphasis on speed, monetization and corporate partnership coming, with the higher video counts and Linus happily and repeatedly reviewing a product that he holds an ownership stake in.

 

Color me blind, btw. I knew the decline in overall video quality was a thing, has been for a couple of years now. The bright, solid color thumbnails with clickbaity titles were the first clue that LTT was headed down a dark path, but the lab content really had me hopeful. Oh well.

 

Maybe Steve and the Hardware Unboxed gents see LTT's lab content as encroaching into their space, a space they would quickly lose to the Linus behemoth, and the cheap shot at LTX is what finally prompted the response. Whatever the case may be, Steve did the Steve thing and dropped a GN-bomb, Linus did the corporate thing and posted a "we never meant to, we are people too!", reply, and HW Unboxed did the HW Unboxed thing and me-too'd their way into a drama a day late and a dollar short (although they had good reason this time).

 

All I would say as someone who hasn't watched a ton of LTT lately but feels like he's watched enough to say it: LMG praises stuff from the big OEMs, and sometimes shits all over the little guys who send them stuff. I'm not a "watch every video" guy as of late. I maybe watch one LTT video a week and a couple more from the subchannels at this point, but it's a pattern I've noticed over time. "Big name OEM" gets a nearly free pass on everything, but Billet Labs and PWNAGE get ripped. If there is some intent behind that to please business partners while remaining "unbiased" by shredding products from indie designers, and to be clear I am not saying there is nor do I think there is, but if I'm wrong and there is, I mean, at that point, gfy.

[Forbidden Wafer]

2 minutes ago, Saeumii said:

yes, it would've been better for him to properly test the water block. but he's made it very clear that the results wouldn't change his conclusion [there are cheaper options that offer the same performance] unless the block broke the laws of physics. 

If his conclusion wouldn't change regardless of any testing, and he wasn't going to even test it properly, why bother making that video?

[DakotaCx]

24 minutes ago, coopa said:

If what has been discussed between LMG, here, and elsewhere is not sufficient for you, and any amount of discussion with others is not good enough for you because you've already made up your mind, then I wish you a good evening.

 

If this was to be handled internally, then it wouldn't have been an external matter with all of us discussing it. Yet here we all are.

That's a very false equivalency. But you're right indeed about the fruitlessness of further discussing it in general, good evening. 

[duke_seb]

I’m guessing everything was put on hold today…. No new releases on all the channels….. I’m guessing company wide all day meeting

[gregcron]

Only somewhat related, but I hope they can find a balance between data-driven results and shenanigans.

 

I'm not necessarily one for segmenting, but I enjoy many aspects of the videos that come from poor preparation.  I thought having to machine down ram, etc. to make things fit and having to deal with having the completely wrong video card were hilarious.  I think that type of "jank" is what draws me to many of LTT's videos.  As a DIY'er, I love those types of home projects. 

LTT's resources allow for both the fun "this doesn't make any sense but we have budget so here's a pedabyte of storage in a home server" and the professional output of labs/benchmarks.  Hopefully they can find a way to continue to do both.  It'd be a shame if LTT were more accountable/accurate but lost the jank.

 

The amount of segmentation may get ridiculous, but perhaps there needs to be more distinction (or even segmentation by channel) of labs/benchmark videos (with proper due diligence and accountability), while also having an outlet for videos like "what the hell, we figured we'd try this thing on the wrong GPU to see what happens" in the same vein as ridiculous builds, etc.

 

As far as Linus' response- I'm disappointed and also recognize that he's still relatively young with a very large role & public presence.  There have been just a couple times where I've thought "ah man, that was a misstep".  One that comes to mind was the video where he was replying to someone asking if he were YT CEO (or something along those lines), and he replied something to the nature of "they couldn't afford me".  Yikes.  At the same time, he's found tremendous success and I try and remind myself that it's a huge position to be in- even the success he's found takes a bit of practice to.. "wield with grace".

 

Anyways, that's my $0.02 for the nobody that asked.  I think/hope with some introspection this will end up a learning experience and a net positive.

 

[infinitytec]

Just now, duke_seb said:

I’m guessing everything was put on hold today…. No new releases on all the channels….. I’m guessing company wide all day meeting

Tech Quickie, LMG Clips, and GameLinked have all uploaded today. No main channel video though.

[e22big]

3 minutes ago, JustStopPlz said:

Gee, I wonder then how they missed the fact that the block isn't making contact with the die then. Billet Labs themselves say so IN THE COMMENTS OF THE VIDEO. You can look for it yourself or if you did what you claimed you did, you simply go to 30:48 on GamerNexus' first video. This is irrelevant and arguably makes them look worse since they just test with the wrong GPU. Twice.

 

... The mental gymnastics here are out there. You expect a very precisely machined solid copper block to be an entry-level builder friendly part then? What the heck is this? Ofc it's only for the enthusiasts.

 

Before LTT video yes, Billet did say it COULD work. It however doesn't make contact, as Billet concluded after getting their hands on a 4090.

 

The video you posted has the writer for the episode say that he didn't have to do any of this. Do you honestly believe Billet labs just slapped a block on the table with a CPU and a GPU and called it a finished product?

 

Like with other products, you have to make sure parts fit together. Their motherboard didn't. And they went ahead with the build anyway.

 

 

 

...then there's no way for the LTT team to know it absolutely wouldn't work isn't it, if they only find out about it after the video. And this is assuming that we can take Bili statement at face value. Which it isn't even because it does actually work with the 4090, and they updated their data about it.

 

Other than delay it for a week and filming Adam talking about it at the end of the video, instead of wrting in a pinned comment. I don't see how much more they can do especially in the matter of this video.

 

Other points still stand, they will still have to reimburse the Bilid Lab for the prototype they've lost and work on their data accuracy but as far as the actual video is concern, I think they've solved it already.

[Caphenning]

4 minutes ago, Saeumii said:

"The way he trashed the results"

yes, it would've been better for him to properly test the water block. but he's made it very clear that the results wouldn't change his conclusion [there are cheaper options that offer the same performance] unless the block broke the laws of physics. he specifically praised their engineering quality in the video, so i don't think he had any ill will towards them. but yes, all we have at this point is speculation, beyond what information has already been shared. it'd be best for him to come out and clarify what happened and why, but i'm not holding my breath for that

That’s the worst part! He did a shit test and made up his mind that the product is shit. That’s either him being a psychopathic narcissist, or he’s throwing them under the bus, and when he gives away the prototype to an unknown entity which could for all we know be a competitor, that makes him look like a crook.

[HiTechLowSpec]

54 minutes ago, Dohregard said:

that's because it's not relevant to the allegations. She clearly had no input on any of what went wrong, and any pressure Linus feels doesn't permit him to behave in a way that seems unprofessional in the face of a very sincere and well thought out critique of his entire brand. Even a "We'll do better bro" would have been better, but now it kinda seems like anything said after is just damage control rather than true accountability which sucks. It'll blow over, but at the very least I hope to see something change for the better and for drama like this to not happen anymore. This isn't the first time bravado caused a huge issue...

You have absolutely no idea that is the fact of the matter. To say it's not relevant is your opinion. Please state how many years you have been married to your CFO and I'll decide how much weight I give your opinion.

[Saeumii]

1 minute ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

If his conclusion wouldn't change regardless of any testing, and he wasn't going to even test it properly, why bother making that video?

to give them some publicity, possibly. the monoblock is clearly well made, even if they didn't test it properly, and linus praised their manufacturing and machining capabilities at the end

[Lupusvir]

I want to express my disappointment with LMG. Gamer's Nexus showed how they lacked proper accurate data and how LMG auctioned off the Billet Labs water block when Billet Labs requested it back. Also, LMG's questionable review of the product itself. GN suspected the inaccurate data to be due to LMG videos being rushed. The staff, including Linus himself, seem to be on the same page about it. They all talked about it in a floatplane special.

 

Linus's knee-jerk reaction was, well, a knee-jerk. He acted like a victim when he knew full well he messed up.

 

What I want to see to remedy these issues is the following:

• A prepared statement admitting their shortcomings and a plan for how they will do better.
• A statement about their suspected corporate connections. And an internal investigation on if they're changing the decisions and recommendations they make.
• The Billet Labs water block either compensated for or their prototype sent back.
• Short Circuit being an unboxing channel rather than a pseudo-review channel.

Once these criteria, or criteria acceptable to this, are met. I might consider putting trust back into LMG. But for now, I want LMG to know I cannot trust them anymore. And hope they make the right decisions to remedy this.

Edited August 16, 2023 by Lupusvir
Missed a word.

[qQDY]

17 minutes ago, LynxCat said:

There is no way for GN to be unbiased. If Asus made a review thrashing Gigabyte graphics card, it couldn't be fully unbiased even when all the facts are correct. They are competitors. Steve also has a lot of snarky comments in the videos. He is threatened by the labs and is striking back.

 

That being said, LTT needs to have a better answer and fix their shit.

Yo no one is threatened by Linus' lab lol
Not Steve, not even the other Steve. LMG doesn't have the expertise to even approach the lab quality that the Steves got. Nobody watches LMG videos when it comes to "lab" data or any data for anything.. More so today that Linus has lost all credibility by refusing to take this issue "head on" considering his "Long history" of doing so.

[infinitytec]

Just now, Saeumii said:

to give them some publicity, possibly. the monoblock is clearly well made, even if they didn't test it properly, and linus praised their manufacturing and machining capabilities at the end

And on top of that, to give the product a fair chance.

[GBT]

On 8/14/2023 at 3:31 PM, Skipple said:

Just finished the video. Here are my takes:

1. I thought Steve was very fair when criticizing LTT's sloppiness / inaccuracies / mistakes in recent videos, but this doesn't come as a surprise. I think this is something we all have known for a while now. I do agree that LTT needs to do some long and hard introspection on this topic.
2. I'm somewhat shocked that Steve didn't go into detail about their own testing methodology in response to the tour video
3. I dislike the non so gentle insinuation that LTT staff is biased because their previous employment without any evidence of said bias.
4. I dislike the non so gentle insinuation that LTT is biased of business connections / partnerships / investment without any evidence of said bias
5. I very much dislike the out of context clips from WAN Show while completely failing to represent Linus' viewpoint. Steve did this exact same thing last time he did a critical video of LTT re: Trust Me Bro.. 
6. I dislike that Steve fails to mention HIS OWN conflict of interest when criticizing a competitor that is moving into GN's bread and butter. 
7. The Billet Labs situation is possibly the most concerning part for me. I disliked Linus' response to the (honestly god awful) video when it happened. If the rest of the story is true, I don't even know how LTT can rectify the situation for the company. I would recommend @LinusTech respond to this situation immediately, tactfully, and publicly.

This message is as close to my opinion as it could be.  I agree with all of it, but would like to add a few points of my own.

 

  1. I dislike that Steve demonstrated that he watches and quotes from the WAN show, but ignores the recent episode where Linus and Luke engage in a lenghty discussion that not only acknowledges the QC issues, but where they also actively look for solutions.  To NOT include this in a piece that is so critical of QC processes is... not an accident.  It seems more like a willful omission in order to not weaken his stance.

 

2. I dislike that this came off  as attack journalism, not investigative reporting. It is delivered sensationally, it overstates some issues, and it purposefully blurs the lines between "facts" and "editorial opinion".  I'd have no problem with that if Steve was honest and up front about it, but he tries to pass it off as "trying to help".

 

What I think the real purpose of these two videos was to HARM.  Yes, GN make good points, and yes, LMG need to take them to heart - but let's not bullstuff either about the tone and the obective.  Steve and GN have everything to lose if Labs succeeds, and that in my opinion is the real reason Steve went nuclear. Remember that GN news video where he got super-snarky when learning that Linus bought a fan-tester and called it "friendly competition?"  I sure do.  It illuminates this moment.   

 

A better format if GN's goal was truly to "help", would have been a live interview where he can confront Linus with these issues, or a detailed email thread asking LMG to respond to the accusations in writing. Steve could then have reacted to the responses in either of those two scenarios and push for more details, confront poor arguments, call BS if need be, etc. THAT would be "trying to help". 

 

3. The tone around the BilletLabs disaster stops just short of accusing LMG of criminal activity, whereas anyone with an actual brain can work out that this likely was a series of monumental fart-ups - not theft, fraud, or malice as is implied.  The facts are that they agreed to return it, failed to do so, then auctionned it for charity - that's just massively poor logistics management, but to insinuate that they did it on purpose, or never intended to make it right... well that is in bad faith, and in poor taste.

 

4. The end of the coverage in the second video turns into personal attacks... there's no need for that, but it is also telling.   

 

@LinusTech - I would like to see you respond in full, eventually, with a scripted video.  I think it would be an opportunity to show humility, show how you'll get better, but also push back on stuff that just isn't true.

[CUD]

3 minutes ago, PressleyPress said:

Let's assume that the mistakes found by GN are true. Okay fine. Those are mistakes that LTT needs to catch in the future. They've obviously got work to do.

 

But who made GN the YouTube Review police? I'm sure LTT could find instances of GN making mistakes and not catching them. Why is that content? Why not just keep producing your own reviews that compete with LTT's with the correct info? What's the motivation for calling out another channel? Gee I don't know, maybe to get your channel more attention?

 

Do you really think that GN is just worried about consumers? Sure they say they "demonetized" their first video, but that's not the only gains to made by making a hit piece. (And it is a hit piece. If you don't give the subject the chance to comment before publication, you're making a hit piece.) They've already made another video about Linus' reply, and there's already been many articles written about GN and their video. They sure are getting a lot of attention out of this one video.

 

This is only something that happens on Youtube when a smaller channel is pissed at another channel's popularity. You don't see TV news shows spending their time reporting on how some other news show reported something wrong. This is a uniquely YouTube thing because that's how smaller channels get attention by attacking larger channels and I find it petty.

 

I'm not giving LTT a pass on their mistakes, but I'm also not seeing GN as some sort of hero here. They did this for attention, and it's working. Otherwise they could have just made a video showing how their tests got different results and that they believe theirs to be more accurate. But in instead they produced a mini-documentary speculating on LTTs procedures, coming up with their own theories as to how LTT's mistakes were made, coming up with their own solutions for the process problems they guessed at, and all in the guise of protecting consumers. I call BS.

Honestly, I doubt Gamers Nexus would have bothered to make this if that member of the Labs team didn't name drop GN.

You can't start calling out other channels while making false statements about your (the Labs) own processes and expect them not to respond.

 

The Labs team should not be making public statements that trash talk other reviewers because GN decided to defend themselves and hit back at LTT harder.

 

I don't even watch GN but with how well they presented their points it really painted a bad picture of LTT and their practices.

Linus can make a forum post trying to explain things but they need to do far more going forward to regain people's trust.

 

All this money invested into Labs and GN has really made people lose faith in the whole project.

[Drazil100]

2 minutes ago, infinitytec said:

Tech Quickie, LMG Clips, and GameLinked have all uploaded today. No main channel video though.

I will be legitimately shocked if there is no release today. But it seems like that's the direction things are going to go. Maybe they are waiting until people go to bed so that the more angry viewers won't dislike bomb the video as much. Assuming the Return YouTube Dislike extension's numbers are accurate, their last video got hit hard. 

[Saeumii]

4 minutes ago, duke_seb said:

I’m guessing everything was put on hold today…. No new releases on all the channels….. I’m guessing company wide all day meeting

i'm quite curious what's happening behind the scenes

[mobriskie]

16 minutes ago, soysauceonrice said:

My biggest problem with Steve's Video is the fact that he relied on those old clips and didn't let them respond to his accusations directly.  Now, I've heard the arguments, and I've heard from Steve's response video how he says he doesn't HAVE to reach out to Linus for comment, and I don't buy it.  

 

He doesn't HAVE to do anything.  But he still should have.  If you go back to the original video Steve posted, he stated very specifically that Steve/GN was the one who suggested that the block could have been bought by a competitor.  This wasn't something Billet brought up, and Steve had no clue who actually bought the block.  He just threw out a wild hunch, and inserted it into the video.  Why ?  A lot of people defended not reaching out by saying Steve was just "reporting the facts" but this clearly was not factual.  He was editorializing and adding wild hunches/guesses into the video to sensationalize it even more.  You know who can figure out who the block was sold to ?  LMG.  It's fine to ask questions as a journalist.  But asking the question isn't enough -- you should actually try to answer the question.  If Steve really cared about who ultimately bought the block, he could have sent an email and asked.  If he insists on not trying to find an answer, then throwing in speculation of corporate espionage is inappropriate.  

 

I mean, in the same video where he questions LMG's conflict of interest, he totally ignores the fact that GN also has a massive conflict of interest because Linus and LMG are trying to move into his Youtube niche of in-depth technical reviews.  They are both investing significant $$$ into the same type of in-depth analysis, and it obviously benefits Steve and GN to hit LMG's credibility.  A cynic can point to his editorializing, combined with his refusal to allow LMG to respond to his accusations, as an attempt to maximize the damage to a competitor.  I don't understand how, for someone as cynical as Steve, that he has such a blind-spot.  

So let me get this right.   You are saying it doesn't matter that LMG auctioned off a prototype product they obviously didn't like that was from a small startup company in the UK...that is just Steve trying to get over on LTT.   You are saying that all of the errors that Steve did show in his video do not matter to consumers who may be relying on LTT videos to make buying decisions with their hard earned dollars.   You are saying this is all just Steve trying to kill a competitor.    Ok...maybe...but how LTT managed to take another company's asset and put it into an auction by mistake just seems too over the top to me.   A prototype / one-off product sent in for review should be treated respectfully....AND if LTT can track who won the waterblock in that auction, have they tried to reach out to that person to see if they could get it back for Billet Labs and provide that auction winner something else in return?    Why did LTT not compensate Billet Labs immediately upon discovering they goofed and auctioned off someone else's property?    When they were picking all the items to be in the auction...who vetted those items were OK to auction?

 

Man....I don't know.   Steve could be trying to hurt LTT...maybe you are correct....but on the other side of the coin LTT is tripping over their own feet bad here.  Really bad.

[Chairman Boofy]

2 minutes ago, qQDY said:

Yo no one is threatened by Linus' lab lol
Not Steve, not even the other Steve. LMG doesn't have the expertise to even approach the lab quality that the Steves got. Nobody watches LMG videos when it comes to "lab" data or any data for anything.. More so today that Linus has lost all credibility by refusing to take this issue "head on" considering his "Long history" of doing so.

The idea that anyone is threatened by the LTT "labs" when the LTT "labs" have done literally nothing beside being an off the cuff mention in a few videos for the past year or whatever they've been around is pretty funny to begin with.

[Saeumii]

4 minutes ago, Caphenning said:

That’s the worst part! He did a shit test and made up his mind that the product is shit. That’s either him being a psychopathic narcissist, or he’s throwing them under the bus, and when he gives away the prototype to an unknown entity which could for all we know be a competitor, that makes him look like a crook.

you seem to have missed my point, even though i very clearly said "wouldn't change his conclusion [there are cheaper options that offer the same performance] unless the block broke the laws of physics". it doesn't matter whether the test was favorable toward the monoblock or not. linus would still have said it's not worth the money

[Apostate]

1 minute ago, CUD said:

Honestly, I doubt Gamers Nexus would have bothered to make this if that member of the Labs team didn't name drop GN.

You can't start calling out other channels while making false statements about your (the Labs) own processes and expect them not to respond.

 

The Labs team should not be making public statements that trash talk other reviewers because GN decided to defend themselves and hit back at LTT harder.

 

Did you see the WAN show clip explaining what happened with the comment, How the Labs dude had been asked what make sit differnt from GN and HWU every time so he just added that to the opening explination. Was it a good look, NOPE. Was it calling them out? NOPE.

 

He didnt make a public statement, he said something on a tour that was recorded