Gamers Nexus alleges LMG has insufficient ethics and integrity

[Poinkachu]

  

42 minutes ago, Glorthiar said:

1. The follow up seem particularly more hostile and just straight up fucking rude compared to the previous video
2. What in the fuck do you want linus to say/do? it seems like when people are criticized they are not allowed to stand up for themselves or explaiun any actions? what in the actual fuck do you want linus to do, fall to his fucking knees and beg forgiveness while flagellating himself? To give his fucking channel to GN and live in the mountain like a hermit?
No fucking matter what Linus did or said it was not going to be enough for people who are just fucking gung ho to ride the fucking hate train.

1. Well, I think the way Linus said stuffs about Billet matter sounding non-challantly was kinda rude as well tbh. Especially considering they didn't properly test the product and went straight to bashing it. Add auction shit as cherry on top. My dad would make me do a public apology for that kinda thing, but that's me.

Anyway, that's how GN always do it. If the response from the "target" (sorry for lack of better word, as my signature said, english is not my main) is bad enough, they'll go at him/her/it more viciously.

 

2. Hmm? I don't care. Not like anything I say will have any effect afterall. Heck, if even Luke have a hard time telling him (maybe), I'm like... just a dust.
But since you called calling out a bad response and what might be a lie based a shit pot stirring, I said all those. You know, just in case you are not used to how GN did it in the past. And was just curious that if you call that as such, what do you call not saying anything at all ?

If I were to put myself in GN's place : I did promise people that I'd be treating LMG as any other company out there. And if I say nothing, then people will think I am biased due to personal relation.

Now, before anyone calling me a shill for GN. No, I am not.

If anything, I watched LTT's content way more than I watched GN's. And I even subscribed to LTT way longer than I to GN.
I just prefer bad responses and bad practices to be atleast called out. Yes, viciously if needed. So that hopefully, the person receiving the bad treatment can take it as a bitter pill and get better.

[VisibleXela]

1 minute ago, harls said:

Again.  Your argument as well as Steve's is Linus did not contact Billet Labs until after the GN video.  Linus never said he did.  I am not saying that makes what Linus did better in any way.  I am just saying Steve said he doesn;t need to see if there is another side of the story because he know LMG is bad does not make anything factual.

 

My point is simply that no response on Linus' part would absolve them of guilt here that they shouldn't have already made by this point. It's clear LMG fucked up,and lots of folks in here are LARPing that there's a mysterious "other side of the story" that would absolve them of all guilt. Right now, if a response from Linus would add value or context to the discussion he should post it, but his responses so far have been weak, milquetoast, dodgy, and lots of things other than "helpful." If anything, Linus bringing it up is only muddying the issue.

[harls]

Just now, Orthusaku said:

Are you making a legal claim that billet labs is lying about the timeline and will you make that claim in court that billet labs is factually lying?

I never said Billet labs is lying.  I am responding to the claims that Linus is lying.  We do not know that he is lying.  Billet labs statement and Linus' statement could both be true. 

 

[Agall]

7 minutes ago, Inception9269 said:

As someone that has been watching LTT and its channels over the years since 2013, nothing makes me happier than seeing Linus getting taken down a peg or two.

 

The dude has become a complete joke, and oftentimes is so disconnected from what's going on in the world around him, with him living in his own bubbles. For years now I've been saying that the passion that used to be there is all dried up, and the only thing he cares is to rush out their work for the sake of turning a profit.

 

Like, I am so completely tired of the stupid shit he does in videos now. Almost every project Linus works on in a video gets effectively sabotaged by Linus himself, cause he can't take an extra fucking minute to do it right. Like when it comes to those videos in his house, such as the recent one about setting up his server to use his pool to dump heat. I'm no plumber, but I was pretty livid over how bad that job was done, and know plumbers that would be completely flabbergasted by the shit him and Alex did in that video, all because Linus can't just go (or send someone) to a hardware story to pick up the right pieces for the job. Instead he chooses to waste his time, and the time of his employees, to put together a "solution" that is doomed to fail, that they're just gonna have to break down and redo at a later point.

 

And that's just one example. There have been so many times their projects have ended in either failure or an unconventional victory all because he can't wait one single minute to do something the right way, and just wants to YOLO it for Youtube engagement.

 

Keep in mind too that LTT is going through a restructuring, and as someone who's seen a fair share of those in my relatively short professional life already, they can be very difficult.

 

My time active duty, there's a restructuring almost every 6 months. Those go relatively smooth unless there's someone that shows up and decides to change things for the worse.

 

My time as a civilian so far, I'm seeing a company that had the same management for ~40 years getting restructured. Its been mostly problem free, but that can only go so smooth. I imagine LMG/LTT is doing the same, but because of how intimate their consumers are with their day-to-day operations, we get to see ALL of the problems.

[Cave Johnson420]

1 minute ago, Blademaster91 said:

Yeah I don't get why Luke keeps going on the WAN show, unless he has some contract with Linus so he has to or something. His reactions when he disagrees with something dumb Linus says a lot, I'd like to see him actually speak up and make a point but he might not out of fear of Linus going off on him.

luke needs to grow a set of balls then

[the_real_ch3]

Just now, Nachmanowicz said:

"Reviewing" your competitor is never appropriate. I'm not saying he was biased when reviewing competitors. I have zero experience and interest in Laptops tbh. But it's just straight up unethical to do so.

If the New York Times discovers impropriety and faked stories at the Washington Post would it be unethical to publish that story?

[Symion]

 

If the timeline laid out here (particularly that LTT and Billet emailed after GN's video went up and only discussed the value of the prototype) is determined to be factual then Linus is flat out a disingenuous liar and I'm no longer going to watch LTT content and will steer people away from it until a full apology to both GN and Billet is issued at the least.

[WillHeard]

Just now, Legitsu said:

Right back at you. There's nothing that could convince you that what gamers Nexus did was a low blow and questionable journalistic ethics because he's the journalistic equivalent of YouTube's golden boy. He can do no wrong. There's no possible way he has an ego problem or an agenda this talking head on YouTube presents himself in such a genuine way. There's no possible way he's doing the exact thing. He's accusing others of it. That never happens right?

 

Here we run into the problems with absolutes folks there are no absolutes putting the troll hat down for a minute because honestly this is getting tiresome 

I don’t believe any of those things. I’m here to talk about the contents of the video, the factual claims made, not how you feel about who said it. your inability to discuss the content without bringing steve into it says everything. Look in the mirror. you are having an emotional response, not a logical one

[Orthusaku]

6 minutes ago, Thepyrodex said:

What do you want to hear then?

 

I just want to know the truth, I don't care whos right because at the end of the day, they are talking heads on your screen and this thread is full of people angry over a parasocial relationship they have with a MEDIA COMPANY.  

 

LMG has a lot to explain but come on, if you won't even listen then what's the point of caring as much as you do?

"We made the mistake of auctioning the block that we did not own. We are going to work to get the block back to the rightful owner, and return the money from the auction. We did not accurately review the prototype and will be deleting the video about it. We will be making a video going out the changes we will be making to ensure our data is both accurate, valid, and not used incorrectly."

[Shnuks]

5 minutes ago, Legitsu said:

If people can't understand the sheer arrogance of what Steve and gamer Nexus are doing, it boggles the mind let me phrase it to you this way. The arrogance of assuming that you are the sole person on the entire internet, responsible for holding others accountable for things you think they did wrong while simultaneously benefiting from posting those things. That's not a conflict of interest? where Steve's journalistic principles I don't see them

I'm amazed how, we as people, function completely differently. I watched GN's video and was rather pissed off at Linus. Yet some completely disregard that and just see what a dick Steve is. Amazing.

[VisibleXela]

1 minute ago, Poinkachu said:

Now, before anyone calling me a shill for GN. No, I am not.

If anything, I watched LTT's content way more than I watched GN's. And I even subscribed to LTT way longer than I to GN.
I just prefer bad responses and bad practices to be atleast called out. Yes, viciously if needed. So that hopefully, the person receiving the bad treatment can take it as a bitter pill and get better.

Same here, and if anything being a longtime LTT fan makes me far more upset. I expect so much more than this from Linus & Co.

[Cavalry Canuck]

6 minutes ago, Ooooffff8732 said:

 

GN dropping these 2 vids was like watching a B-27 dropping little boy and fat man on Nagasaki and Hiroshima (aka ltm and linus)

 

The image I had in mind was an LTT Battleship sinking in stormy seas while a bunch of GN cruisers, destroyers, bombers, and one Hardware Unboxed dude in a rowboat were still hammering away at it.

[redf5]

7 minutes ago, Legitsu said:

That people can't understand the sheer arrogance of what Steve and gamer Nexus are doing, it boggles the mind let me phrase it to you this way. The arrogance of assuming that you are the sole person on the entire internet, responsible for holding others accountable for things you think they did wrong while simultaneously benefiting from posting those things

 

 

That's not a conflict of interest? where Steve's journalistic principles I don't see them he can demonetize the video all he wants. He's still going to profit from a massive bump and subscriber and comment and views which is going to affect his channel ranking which is going to affect his bottom line. So don't hand us any crap about demonetizing the video and how it's for the greater good ad nauseam

Where did GN assume they are the sole person responsible for holding others accountable? Where is the arrogance? They published a well researched video with warranted criticism. That's it.

[ayysub]

so many bootlickers in this thread

[jooroth18]

1 minute ago, Blademaster91 said:

Yeah I don't get why Luke keeps going on the WAN show, unless he has some contract with Linus so he has to or something. His reactions when he disagrees with something dumb Linus says a lot, I'd like to see him actually speak up and make a point but he might not out of fear of Linus going off on him.

Luke is an introvert, first and forrmost. You have to understand that. Luke disagrees with linus, and is sometimes vocal about it, but sometimes fails to mention it, weather be because wan show is 3 hrs long and he forgets, or other reasons. Its hard to go through what goes on in peoples thought process, but part of it is definately to not argue too much.

[smcoakley]

There are some valid concerns here that probably should be addressed, but I also see a lot of jumping to conclusions by people who were just waiting for an opportune time to vent all of their other unrelated complaints about LTT, and I don't see that being helpful. Acting aggressive or rude does not enhance your case, but only detracts from it. (Note that I am not saying that GN was either of these things, but some commenters have been.) A solid case can stand on its own merit without either of these things.

 

First, issuing a response is going to take time. On one hand, people are saying that they are upset by Linus' "hasty" responses and want something that isn't just "by the seat of his pants", but on the other hand, they are demanding some kind of formal apology immediately. Which is it? If you want them to post some kind of video addressing the issue that is well thought out, then that's going to take some time, more than just a few hours. I'd wait a few days, maybe even a week.

 

Though I will add that "YouTuber apology videos" is probably more of a meme nowadays than something people takes seriously, so is that really what we want? Would that even work, or be satisfactory? Because I'm a little doubtful about that. Linus isn't stupid; I'm sure he's doubtful about it as well, which is why his gut reaction was to say there wouldn't be a public video segment about it.

 

Another concern is the number of corrections being made on videos in post-production. Sure, that's not ideal, and I also have noticed this increasing. But an increase in the number of errors made during filming is only one possible explanation. Another possible explanation is that LTT videos have always had a similar number of mistakes, and the increase in corrections made during editing is actually an improvement as opposed to no correction at all. Perhaps only now are the mistakes more clear. It is possible that we are recognizing the point on the graph being less than 100%, but maybe we're interpreting the direction of the curve incorrectly?

 

The Billet Labs thing is a separate concern of its own that I feel doesn't really tie into the rest of the criticisms, and mixing the two is just muddying things up. From the outside it does appear like a pretty bad blunder, but I don't know that it was malicious. Never assume malice when incompetence is a sufficient explanation. And this policy can probably be applied to most of the accusations by GN; not only is it more charitable to do so, its also more likely to get at the truth, because in my experience more often than not, incompetence was the actual cause and not malice.

 

Personally I want to hear more of LTT's side of the story here before I draw any sort of conclusion for myself. It is only fair when hearing an accusation to allow the accused an opportunity to defend themselves, admit any wrongdoing, and provide additional context. And the real world is not cut-and-dry; I suspect there's a mix of both mistakes as well as misunderstandings involved here.

[Nachmanowicz]

We're all on LTT forum here, I suppose we're all fans here and don't want the group to get lost. We want it to get better. I like Linus. I do, he doesn't know who I am and he never will but I just like him. Sometimes Im doing chores and I'm listening to him talking about something...

It wasn't pleasant reading his response. I expect better from him, and hopefully we will get better from him.

[Tehkast]

LTT Airport lot of people leaving departure information.

 

Just seems like a bit of a virtue signal.

[WillHeard]

comparing this to nuclear bombings is weird

[Ironman420]

It is a long post, I would love you to go through it all before replying. Yesterday when I watched GN’s video, things he pointed out were not new to me. I have observed it myself. I have read and heard the opinions of many people about the matter. As someone who once worked in this industry and has some experience and ideas about testing, I want to share my perspective.

There is no denying that there are gross inaccuracies in various LTT videos. Whether it is as simple as inaccuracies about the amount of cache memory to as big as the 4090 Cyberpunk chart. If someone has followed LTT for a long time knows that these are not new things. They have made mistakes in the review videos in the past. But it is different in recent times. You may ask, why is that? Well, when you mentioned something like “our lab has run benchmarks on this and found that…” then you are trying to assert that you have tested things thoroughly and we should expect the result to be accurate. Now in this case you might say that the lab is new, so their process isn’t fine-tuned yet. And this is exactly what Linus has said in his reply to this post. Well, that means they know that the results that are coming out of the lab can be wrong and they are knowingly putting those results in a review video. If your process isn’t fine-tuned, that means your product (method in this case) is in alpha or beta. And you don’t put your beta/alpha product in production. 

 

Proper testing is complex, and I know it, LTT knows it. Mistakes happen because, at the end of the day, we are human, after all. But if you know your testing method might not be correct and still put those testing results in your video and base your review conclusion on those testing, then you are doing ethically wrong here. You either do a review properly or don’t; there is no middle ground. A buyer who is deciding his/her purchasing decision on your review doesn’t care about your process, he just wants it to be accurate. So if you can’t be accurate, don’t do it. Now you can say even if they correct those mistakes, that would not change the ultimate conclusion, then, I would say this is the most ignorant way of accepting your mistake. What if someone only cares about 4090’s Cyberpunk performance and after watching the LTT video he might assume that 4090 is 300% superior compared to other cards which is factually wrong. If only one person is misguided, then that’s too many. 

 

And let’s talk about @LinusTech response. Linus in his post, said along the line, “We know we have made mistakes, we are actively trying to improve it. But things are not moving as fast as I want to be. We strive to become better.” This is the most generic corporate BS you generally hear from a big corporation. This is not a response from a YouTube creator who claims to own his mistakes. Dude, you are not even trying to address the root issue here: lack of time. You claim that LTT doesn’t prioritize quality over quantity, yet all of your recent GPU reviews are filled with the wrong chart derived from the flawed test methodology. If someone with enough knowledge (which many LTT staff has) has gone through those charts before publishing would definitely have noticed those inconsistencies. This is something that Linus knows, his staffs know, but he is actively trying to deny. If Linus knowingly denies it, then it is terrible and if is doing it unknowingly then someone has brought this up in front of him. 

 

Look, I understand why they need to post 23 (or 27?) videos a week. They have a really big team, and so they have to produce that many videos in order to sustain their business. Now on the surface, it sounds reasonable that they have 100+ people on their team. But how many of those people are actually working on core video topics, not many, I suppose. They need more writers if they want quality videos. And this is something they should have understood before scaling up their amount of uploads in a short period. 

 

Now let’s talk about the lack of expertise that people are mentioning. They have branched out in many fields, which is not a bad thing, but before covering a particular segment of tech, you should understand that segment properly. Let’s take an example, their coverage of mobile phones. I don’t want to sound like j*rk, but they are utterly unknowledgeable about mobile phones. I understand that they might be enthusiastic about mobile phones and they want to cover that. Still, really, they should refrain from doing that until they have someone who understands mobile phones and has tested various smartphones in their life, like what they have done with the Apple-specific Mac Address channel. I could be a football enthusiast, but that doesn’t mean I should go on TV and give an expert opinion. 

 

Now let’s come to the point of how GN has covered the whole thing. If you think that this was not a hit piece, then you are just too ignorant or just kidding yourself. While what GN said is not wrong, he has over-sensationalized/dramatized some facts in his favor. For example, Gary’s past affiliation with ASUS or the new CEO’s affiliation with Dell/Corsair. This is idiotic to assume just because of their past affiliation, they would do biased work. Let’s say I want to do the best GPU testing, and I hire someone who has worked at Nvidia as a GPU tester. If you say that just because he has worked in Nvidia in the past, he will do biased testing and would favor Nvidia only, then are simply wrong. First, you are assuming things without knowing the person, and second, you have no experience working for various companies. There is plenty of examples of people who have worked at AWS, and next, they joined Azure or GCP. Just because they have worked in AWS, doesn’t mean they will continue to work for AWS even after joining GCP or Azure.

 

Steve has discussed Linus’s framework investment and how reviewing other brands’ laptops is a conflict of interest. Even if LTT denies of conflict of interest, Framework makes laptops so do other brands like HP, Dell, and Asus also makes laptop. So being in the same segment if LTT reviews HP laptops, that is a conflict of interest. Well, fair enough, I do agree with it. So being in the same segment makes it a conflict of interest. Huh! So isn’t this expose too convenient and a conflict of interest for GN? Aren’t they in the same segment? Why would rules be different for GN? GN claims that they have turned off monetization of this video and they would not gain anything from it. It’s like saying AMD would not gain anything by exposing the mistakes of Nvidia. While technically, GN has not done anything wrong by pointing out the mistake of LTT, they can't deny the conflict of interest here. I would not go deep into this. I won’t discuss the topic of the LAB tour and how that might have triggered GN. But if you want to assess the situation unbiasedly, both sides should be scrutinized whether you like it or not. I do believe this expose should help people who were not aware of LTT’s inaccuracies. 

 

Now let’s talk about the Billet Lab cooler case. LTT’s video on it is just outright trash, to say the least. If someone sends you a unique product and you want to make a video on it, then you should and must follow their instructions on how to use it. You might not like the functionality of the, or it’s working, but you should do it according to the instruction as it is not a standard product. And shooting a video on a unique product without instruction and prior testing is the highest level of ignorance. Not only have they tested it against a wrong component, but after people pointed it, they simply said it’s not worth their time/money to do proper testing of it. This has to be the most ignorant and egoistic thing to say. If you don’t want to do it properly then why make a video on it in the first place? As I have said earlier, you either do it properly or don’t do it, there is no middle ground. Then they went ahead and auctioned it off despite saying they would return it. Linus has said this is a one-off in ten years, and they don’t need to change their SOP. Well, no system or process is perfect, there will be some problems in it. And when the problem arises you fix your system/process. Now if you say well it's just one time so need to worry, then you are essentially waiting for it to happen once again in the future. As this cooler was their best prototype, I can imagine it is tough and sad for them to lose it. It will not only delay their future production but also can affect their product’s success. And they should be paid accordingly. But at the same time, they also need to be aware of the risks of sending your best prototype to someone else for testing. That is why companies sign a contract for this type of scenario. And as some people pointed out that their competitor might buy and reverse engineer it. Well, that’s why the patent exists. And if your product can’t be patented, someone can buy it and reverse engineer it anyway, and you can’t do anything about it. 

 

And lastly, I want to talk about some people’s reactions. I have seen people saying, “Linus is a scumbag,” “I hope LTT goes bankrupt”, “I was praying for this day to come”, “Linus is a narcissist,” etc. To those people, I want to say, get a life dude. I understand your sixteen years old brain doesn’t understand or can’t process these types of things. And it’s ok, you will get there one day. Nobody is forcing you to watch LTT or GN or HUB or J2C, if you don’t like someone, don’t watch them. But wishing them harm is a low-IQ move. 

 

There is no denying the fact that these mistakes should not outrun the goods that LTT has done over the year. LTT should be praised for igniting curiosity about tech in the heart of thousands of people like me. I have learned a lot about tech in general from LTT and I can’t deny that. Because of that, today I am informed enough to criticize LTT.  LTT has contributed a lot to the growth of the tech space in general. Because of the sheer size of LTT, we get to see many exciting tech products. Mistakes and failure are part of the process, one should embrace them to improve further. I hope that LTT can produce accurate data that can benefit many future users and buyers. I want to finish with what Green Goblin said in Spiderman, “You chose the way of the hero. And they found you amusing for a while, the people of this city. But the one thing they love more than a hero is to see a hero fail, fall, and die trying. In spite of everything you've done for them, eventually, they will hate you.” 

[MotherboardsInThePark]

2 minutes ago, harls said:

I never said Billet labs is lying.  I am responding to the claims that Linus is lying.  We do not know that he is lying.  Billet labs statement and Linus' statement could both be true. 

 

How could two different statements about time both be true at the same time? Is your brain functioning today, darling?

[mr cheese]

Remember the whole "we're just a small indie game company" thing that gamers like to make fun of? That's what Linus's reply kinda felt like. It's not hard to take responsibility for errors instead of throwing that card on the table. We've heard it too much...

[fohatadri]

3 minutes ago, Calzz said:

You really missed the point. Some things have more than just monetary value and can't just be paid back to make it ok, think of the brand damage for example. Nobody is saying that LTT has done anything here with malicious intent as there is no value of them doing that however it does highlight that too many things get passed the cracks at the moment and checks and balances need to be put into place or fixed if there are there as they clearly arent working, the biggest problem however is the poor response after the fact, you 100% get a chance to say no we made a mistake and here is what we are going to do to fix it and we are sorry however thats not what was given and really is the bigger problem here.

Saying "sorry" to these GN fanboys is not enough. It was clear from the start it wouldn't be enough. Every comment on the first GN's video showed that people will judge this solely based on Steve's opinion and so whatever the opinion was - was also theirs.

[Jai_2501]

He really needs to do some big damage control if he wants to save this situation

[Major_Hylton]

4 minutes ago, Distinctly Average said:

What a horrible thread. Full of bickering, negativity, anger and hatred.

 

Steve made some very valid points and LTT admit they made mistakes. Surely this is where criticism should become constructive. We should be talking about how thing failed and whether it made us make false purchases. We should be offering advice on how we think it is better to do things, and to how we would like to see any future errors addressed. All people and companies make mistakes, but the sign of a good company is how well they deal with the disasters that befall us all.

 

Like almost everyone in this thread, I don’t know the inner workings and procedures LMG have in place. However it feels like a company that has grown too fast. It feels like it has all the tools and people to do an amazing job, but lacks the maturity a company like LMG needs. Many companies go through this, it is not unusual in the slightest. It can break the weaker companies as reputations crash, the stronger ones come through but it is often a bumpy road. There have certainly been some bug bumps in the last two years.

 

I sincerely hope Steve & GN continue to do what they are doing so well. I also hope LMG can learn and grow from the mistakes they have made and it doesn’t dent from the enthusiasm the team obviously has. Maybe they need to slow down just a little so things can be more polished and more importantly, factually correct.

Perfect take.