Apple fans, start typing your angry comments now…

[GeorgeMKane]

3 hours ago, Brooksie359 said:

Comparing workstation level laptops to gaming laptops is dumb. You look at dells workstation laptops and they start at around 3k so it's not really a fair comparison to look at gaming laptops like that is what you could expect to pay for workstation windows laptops. Also Apple has their non pro lineup for this very reason for non professionals who aren't going to he using their laptop for professional work or can get away with non professional laptops for the type of work they do. 

Well also considering this is a workstation pc basically, you can also build your own (with better components, mind you) for almost half the price. You'll also be able to do anything you throw at it, and upgrade over time. With Apple's mac products, you can't.

 

https://pcpartpicker.com/list/YMZcZw

CPU: Intel Core i9-13900K 3 GHz 24-Core Processor  ($569.99 @ Amazon) 
CPU Cooler: NZXT Kraken 360 78.02 CFM Liquid CPU Cooler  ($169.99 @ Newegg Sellers) 
Motherboard: MSI MPG Z790I EDGE WIFI Mini ITX LGA1700 Motherboard  ($350.99 @ Amazon) 
Memory: G.Skill Ripjaws S5 64 GB (2 x 32 GB) DDR5-5600 CL36 Memory  ($174.99 @ Newegg) 
Storage: Samsung 980 Pro 2 TB M.2-2280 PCIe 4.0 X4 NVME Solid State Drive  ($99.99 @ Adorama) 
Video Card: NVIDIA Founders Edition GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB Video Card  ($1199.99 @ Best Buy) 
Case: Corsair 2000D AIRFLOW Mini ITX Tower Case  ($139.99 @ Amazon) 
Power Supply: Corsair SF1000L 1000 W 80+ Gold Certified Fully Modular SFX Power Supply  ($199.99 @ Amazon) 
$2905.92

[AndreiArgeanu]

A lot of Apple's desktop hardware is a hard sell for me. Even with their whole ecosystem shtick and it's still seems like the transition to Arm hasn't quite finished and there's still some time until the platform matures and there's about as good support and optimization for software as there was for x86 before. If you need that much power I guess it has it's place but personally if I had some heavy workloads I'd consider a macbook pro as a mobile workstation that you can dock in and carry with you. It makes me wonder how flexible their architecture is, could they potentially start competing at an enterprise level with servers with the likes of AMD's Epyc 9654?

 

Also the thread is slowly turning into a convo about the stupid passing joke about the sub.

[Vishera]

2 hours ago, Senzelian said:

Power efficiency is great and all, but 4090 goes brrrrr. And we all know that's what really matters.

Just like there are electric airplane engines that are very efficient and perform well and then you have Turbojet engines with afterburner and all the bells and whistles.

[mdk777]

8 minutes ago, Brooksie359 said:

Did you know this before the sub imploded, or afterwards?

Carbon fiber body (strong but brittle, impossible to check for fatigue cracks)

glued/silica caulk visible (ditto, impossible to determine integrity) 

Lacks any certification and cost SIGNIFICANTLY less than any other operator.

 

Yeah, that last item really jumps out at you!

 

Pay low ball price for your tour of Rome, and you may be disappointed, not learn much, and or miss some of the better features.

But pay extreme discount to tour the bottom of the sea?

Yeah, doesn't pass the smell test. If you didn't do more due diligence on that red flag.....well you were playing Russian roulette with 4 bullets inside a six shooter.   

[Brooksie359]

4 minutes ago, GeorgeMKane said:

Well also considering this is a workstation pc basically, you can also build your own (with better components, mind you) for almost half the price. You'll also be able to do anything you throw at it, and upgrade over time. With Apple's mac products, you can't.

 

https://pcpartpicker.com/list/YMZcZw

CPU: Intel Core i9-13900K 3 GHz 24-Core Processor  ($569.99 @ Amazon) 
CPU Cooler: NZXT Kraken 360 78.02 CFM Liquid CPU Cooler  ($169.99 @ Newegg Sellers) 
Motherboard: MSI MPG Z790I EDGE WIFI Mini ITX LGA1700 Motherboard  ($350.99 @ Amazon) 
Memory: G.Skill Ripjaws S5 64 GB (2 x 32 GB) DDR5-5600 CL36 Memory  ($174.99 @ Newegg) 
Storage: Samsung 980 Pro 2 TB M.2-2280 PCIe 4.0 X4 NVME Solid State Drive  ($99.99 @ Adorama) 
Video Card: NVIDIA Founders Edition GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB Video Card  ($1199.99 @ Best Buy) 
Case: Corsair 2000D AIRFLOW Mini ITX Tower Case  ($139.99 @ Amazon) 
Power Supply: Corsair SF1000L 1000 W 80+ Gold Certified Fully Modular SFX Power Supply  ($199.99 @ Amazon) 
$2905.92

First and foremost is you don't understand workstation pcs if you are using consumer grade graphics card. Also a big reason for workstation grade laptops and prebuilts higher cost is for the warranty and customer support. I mean I sometimes see consumer grade cpus in workstations but you will often times see Xeon processors in alpt of workstations and for workstations you basically always have quadros or the like as they come with the proper drivers and stability that businesses want. 

[Vishera]

1 minute ago, mdk777 said:

impossible to check for fatigue cracks

Not impossible, In 2019 a crack was formed in the carbon fiber hull but OceanGate completely ignored it:

Quote

During a trip on the Titan in 2019, Karl Stanley heard a cracking noise that got louder over the two hours it took for the vessel to plunge over 12,000 feet. The next day, he emailed OceanGate's CEO, Stockton Rush, urging him to hold off on future trips.

The hull was cracked even before the sub dived.

[Brooksie359]

4 minutes ago, mdk777 said:

Carbon fiber body (strong but brittle, impossible to check for fatigue cracks)

glued/silica caulk visible (ditto, impossible to determine integrity) 

Lacks any certification and cost SIGNIFICANTLY less than any other operator.

 

Yeah, that last item really jumps out at you!

 

Pay low ball price for your tour of Rome, and you may be disappointed, not learn much, and or miss some of the better features.

But pay extreme discount to tour the bottom of the sea?

Yeah, doesn't pass the smell test. If you didn't do more due diligence on that red flag.....well you were playing Russian roulette with 4 bullets inside a six shooter.   

Yeah not looking into things when doing something so dangerous is a good way to end up dead. I mean it's sad but the even sadder part to me is that this could have easily been avoided with just a little bit of research. 

[poochyena]

37 minutes ago, mdk777 said:

Darwin Award winners do not count as innocent. 

yes they do. They committed no crimes.

37 minutes ago, mdk777 said:

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

This is victim blaming. Toxic.

37 minutes ago, Brooksie359 said:

Basically very soon after the story came out about a missing sub.

So you are blaming people for not knowing something that you, yourself, didn't even know? Hypocrite.

[igormp]

2 hours ago, issmkc said:

I think what a lot of people are missing is that M2 Ultra is a decent way to get 192GB VRAM on the cheap (compared to getting multiple nvidia cards for tens of thousands of $).

Open source locally-run language models are developing at an extremely rapid pace, and while its true that CUDA is generally better supported than Metal or ANE, the support for macs running large language models is getting there (recently added to llama-cpp), and being able to run a 65B/130B model locally is huge.

While using stuff like llama cpp is nice, keep in mind that no training is done on those M2, so they're only relevant for running your fancy chatbot, but not useful for developing new models or fine-tuning those, you're still stuck with an nvidia GPU.

2 hours ago, issmkc said:

there's even less chance they give people SLI bridges for it.

Those are not needed at all for running multiple GPUs, and irrelevant when you're at 4~8 GPUs only, so not a deal breaker at all.

2 hours ago, issmkc said:

Only so far a pair of used 3090s can take you now, and despite advancements in quantization, it's going to be only less and less.

I find your claim to not be that useful, because with a pair of 3090s you have way more performance than the M2 Ultra at a fraction of the cost, while also being able to fine tune those models. Quantization optimizations also apply to the 3090, with Ampere supporting both int4 and int8 acceleration (and Ada even having FP8 support), and thus getting both lower memory usage and FASTER inferences (while on M1/M2, you do get the lower memory usage, but no improved inference times, sometimes those even get worse).

 

Also, the M2 is irrelevant for training those models since you can't properly cluster those.

1 hour ago, KaitouX said:

Considering that the 3090 also could be incredibly efficient when undervolted or power limited, I will guess the same would be true for the 4090, but I don't really know if someone tested it.

Hi, I did:

Some extra numbers using resnet with fp16 and a batch_size of 128:
250W - 1074.36 imgs/sec
275W - 1125.18 imgs/sec
300W - 1151.24 imgs/sec
350W - 1241.81 imgs/sec
370W - 1233.22 imgs/sec (GPU's stock PL)
390W - 1254.26 imgs/sec (vBIOS max limit)

 

Other folks have also done such tests:

https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/hpc/Quad-RTX3090-GPU-Wattage-Limited-MaxQ-TensorFlow-Performance-1974/

 

https://timdettmers.com/2023/01/30/which-gpu-for-deep-learning/#Power_Limiting_An_Elegant_Solution_to_Solve_the_Power_Problem

 

IIRC, some one also did those tests for the 4090, it was some tech youtuber from what I recall.

 

1 hour ago, GeorgeMKane said:

Well also considering this is a workstation pc basically, you can also build your own (with better components, mind you) for almost half the price. You'll also be able to do anything you throw at it, and upgrade over time. With Apple's mac products, you can't.

 

https://pcpartpicker.com/list/YMZcZw

CPU: Intel Core i9-13900K 3 GHz 24-Core Processor  ($569.99 @ Amazon) 
CPU Cooler: NZXT Kraken 360 78.02 CFM Liquid CPU Cooler  ($169.99 @ Newegg Sellers) 
Motherboard: MSI MPG Z790I EDGE WIFI Mini ITX LGA1700 Motherboard  ($350.99 @ Amazon) 
Memory: G.Skill Ripjaws S5 64 GB (2 x 32 GB) DDR5-5600 CL36 Memory  ($174.99 @ Newegg) 
Storage: Samsung 980 Pro 2 TB M.2-2280 PCIe 4.0 X4 NVME Solid State Drive  ($99.99 @ Adorama) 
Video Card: NVIDIA Founders Edition GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB Video Card  ($1199.99 @ Best Buy) 
Case: Corsair 2000D AIRFLOW Mini ITX Tower Case  ($139.99 @ Amazon) 
Power Supply: Corsair SF1000L 1000 W 80+ Gold Certified Fully Modular SFX Power Supply  ($199.99 @ Amazon) 
$2905.92

That's not workstation hardware, and only has less than 1/8 of the memory bandwidth of the M2 Ultra.

 

[Brooksie359]

41 minutes ago, poochyena said:

yes they do. They committed no crimes.

This is victim blaming. Toxic.

So you are blaming people for not knowing something that you, yourself, didn't even know? Hypocrite.

How do you figure? Obviously if this was some obscure information then I would understand your point but this is readily available information that one could easily find had they done a bit of research before going to the bottom of the ocean in a tiny submarine. Like I said the submarine wasn't safety certified which would be very easy to figure out when comparing with other similar services that do have the safety certification and from there you could find out info of the creator of the submarine not getting certification because it didn't meet the requirements and that they think that safety requirements are too strict and stifle innovation. I'm sorry but to compare me not know about the safety of a submarine that I have 0 to do with personally to the people who are about to go to the bottom of the ocean in said submarine not knowing anything about its safety is actually insane. I mean I don't know the possible side effects getting an IUD but I would be an idiot to not know if I was about to get one. Obviously what information someone should reasonably know is probably particular to the relevance in their life. Seeing as the submarine wasn't relevant to me it would be weird if I did know tbh. 

[sub68]

5 hours ago, poochyena said:

joking about innocent people dying is definitely yikes

I think its the sub not the people...

3 hours ago, poochyena said:

Did you know this before the sub imploded, or afterwards?

So I may or may not know people in everette WA.

But a submarine built for comfort might not be the best idea...

[williamcll]

The only thing useful this is for is media editing and not much else. Not worth the price if you are using it for 3D intensive applications or anything related to AI. 

 

The unibody case is still great as usual.

[Jefe533]

I'm a colorist. While it's helpful to see a comparison of export times in DaVinci Resolve, it'd be more helpful to see a comparison of playback fps in the Color page. When I'm sitting with a client, it's important to be able to throw tons of effects onto the video and still have it play at 24 fps so they don't see stutter. Whether the final export is fast doesn't matter as much, as typically we would render overnight, or render then jump in the car to commute home, remoting in later to upload the video.

 

Specifically, I'd like to see playback fps on some of the AI effects, particularly Relight. And Neat Video, which is the NR most people use despite Resolve's own NR being quite good. Another intense OFX is Texture Pop in the advanced mode, which we use for smoothening skin in beauty work. Sometimes we'll have a few instances of those, each confined to its own power window. It can be a playback killer to have one or multiple of those. Another good OFX to test is the AI Depth Matte.

 

Separate from this topic, tests of playback speed in the Fusion page would be really helpful. Fusion is seemingly mostly dependent on single-core CPU speeds. Even just playing back a clip with no effects on it in Fusion can be slow as it caches into RAM, despite the clip playing at full speed in the edit or color pages. Testing playback speed within Fusion with a simple series of merge nodes could give an idea of how interactivity feels within Fusion.

[tkitch]

4 hours ago, poochyena said:

Did you know this before the sub imploded, or afterwards?

I didn't know the sub existed before it happened.

 

but if I'ma drop a QUARTER MILLION DOLLARS to go on a trip to 3 miles below the surface of the water?  I'ma make sure that what I'm going on is actually fucking real.

[tkitch]

3 hours ago, poochyena said:

yes they do. They committed no crimes.

This is victim blaming. Toxic.

So you are blaming people for not knowing something that you, yourself, didn't even know? Hypocrite.

you realize the rich guy in the sub is already dead, kissing his ass ain't gonna get you anywhere, right?

 

It's not victim blaming.  (Except possibly the 19 yr old on the sub.)  They actively paid money to climb into an untested sub.  They were active participants in this mess.  

 

And no:  I don't need to know everything about a sub I would NEVER SET FOOT ON.  Why?  Because it has no bearing on me at all.

 

But before I spend money on it?  I'ma do at least SOME research on it.  Cuz the bottom of the ocean is un-fucking-forgiving, and I'm smarter than that.

 

(Spoiler:  James Cameron (and others) has been down there.  He went down in a PROPER sub and paid a ton for the priviledge.  But he did it the right way.  Not using some rich playboy's startup.)

[poochyena]

2 hours ago, tkitch said:

I didn't know the sub existed before it happened.

 

but if I'ma drop a QUARTER MILLION DOLLARS to go on a trip to 3 miles below the surface of the water?  I'ma make sure that what I'm going on is actually fucking real.

5 hours ago, Brooksie359 said:

Obviously if this was some obscure information then I would understand your point but this is readily available information that one could easily find had they done a bit of research before going to the bottom of the ocean in a tiny submarine.

What are the last 3 vehicles you took a ride in? Did you do extensive research into any of those vehicles first? Should I laugh at you if you die from a vehicle accident because you didn't look into the certification of the vehicle your uber driver was driving? How do you think your family would feel about that?

[Brooksie359]

21 minutes ago, poochyena said:

What are the last 3 vehicles you took a ride in? Did you do extensive research into any of those vehicles first? Should I laugh at you if you die from a vehicle accident because you didn't look into the certification of the vehicle your uber driver was driving? How do you think your family would feel about that?

I'm sorry but I have not been in a car other than my own or families for probably the last 5 years. Also like I said cars are regulated so they have to meet basic safety standards. if you really think that taking an uber and paying 250,000 dollars to go to the bottom of the ocean are the same risk factor involved then I guess we just  can't agree. do you think anyone would not call these people idiots if they survived? This is the reality of the world we live in and to simply stick your head in the sand and say that people shouldnt have to look out for themselves and look into things then you will only see more of these accidents.

[Biohazard777]

1 hour ago, Brooksie359 said:

 do you think anyone would not call these people idiots if they survived? This is the reality of the world we live in and to simply stick your head in the sand and say that people shouldnt have to look out for themselves and look into things then you will only see more of these accidents.

Oh please, do you really believe that?
All I see is a fancy excuse to crack distasteful jokes.

 

@LinusTech congrats on hitting a new low, even Subway has more decency than you guys:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/submarine-titanic-joke-implode-sign-georgia-b2369752.html

Quote

However, the chain admitted that the sign was genuine, telling US media in a statement that it was the work of a franchise operator. “We have been in contact with the franchise about this matter and made it clear that this kind of comment has no place in our business,” the chain said in a statement.

[hishnash]

8 hours ago, igormp said:

That's not workstation hardware, and only has less than 1/8 of the memory bandwidth of the M2 Ultra.

 

Not to mention the massively limited addressable VRAM. 

[Brooksie359]

51 minutes ago, Biohazard777 said:

Oh please, do you really believe that?
All I see is a fancy excuse to crack distasteful jokes.

 

@LinusTech congrats on hitting a new low, even Subway has more decency than you guys:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/submarine-titanic-joke-implode-sign-georgia-b2369752.html

The art of dark humor is going to sound distasteful. That's why it's called dark humor. Also I was mostly talking about how stupid it was to get in a submarine like that with no research so not sure how the joke is relevant to what I said anyways. If you disagree that it wasn't stupid to just go to the bottom of the ocean in a janky looking submarine without looking into the safety of the submarine then I guess we just have different thought processes when taking super risky behavior. 

[dogwitch]

48 minutes ago, Brooksie359 said:

The art of dark humor is going to sound distasteful. That's why it's called dark humor. Also I was mostly talking about how stupid it was to get in a submarine like that with no research so not sure how the joke is relevant to what I said anyways. If you disagree that it wasn't stupid to just go to the bottom of the ocean in a janky looking submarine without looking into the safety of the submarine then I guess we just have different thought processes when taking super risky behavior. 

it like a person in fl seeing wheel is coming off of car. yet drive it anyway and crashes. i seen that lvl of dumb before.

[Gork]

4 minutes ago, dogwitch said:

it like a person in fl seeing wheel is coming off of car. yet drive it anyway and crashes. i seen that lvl of dumb before.

LOL irl I actually knew someone who would tinker and fix stuff around his house house all the time. They always had some glitch or flaw after words. so short of the long is: he  fixed and his hmm umm "friends" carS. for a while one of the two: you had to press a bunch of random buttons on the radio and ac for it start. Then the radio system would drift around depending on how he was turning and where he was heading. 

Oh it gets better!

Him his "friend" had 'very close' 'friends' argument I was in the middle of cooking him and the boys dinner. The two 'friends' stormed out and got into different cars, followed by a 3rd calm, and sober mutual actual friend. he says 'well so pookies steering wheel came off before hiting that ramp at the end of the road...he also waved before going cart wheeling off it and hitting a bunch of sand.' on the other hand his 'very very' close 'friend' Bob parked at the end of the road...and then all for wheels just dropped off one after another. Bobs axels looked like  peanut brittle. When Tod came back with two drunk'very very close friends.

 

I have no idea how they lived long enough to stay together. I really don't. 

[Gork]

This video sounds about on brand for Apple when it decided it'd just charge several spleens and mortgage for a barebones system. Let me tell you something. Excusing that by saying "it's profesionall grad" that just sounds like some olympic gold mettle level of gymnastics. for someone to feel better about dropping a lot of money on a large cheese grater with full of computer parts. Keeping in mind they jacked it up even more after noping out of: first the PowerPC chipset, then the x86 one, and now are on Arm?  yeah ok Tim Apple only 5,000 dollars for a  refresh on:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Mac_G4_Cube

 were a update to that Mac minis

yeah ok mmm, an uh your therapy time is when? oh good, glad to know your still going to delusional psycho's anonymous and meats ever other day at noon. Now take your meds and get your prices back to earth.

 

[tkitch]

8 hours ago, poochyena said:

What are the last 3 vehicles you took a ride in? Did you do extensive research into any of those vehicles first? Should I laugh at you if you die from a vehicle accident because you didn't look into the certification of the vehicle your uber driver was driving? How do you think your family would feel about that?

Do you know how to argue on the level?  No?  Argue something that's NOT a false equivilance.

Getting in a car, on a bus, or any other commonly used daily transit is *nothing* like the risk of something that is going to be under 375 Atmospheres of pressure when it hits depth.

 

If my car crashes, or the bus crashes, etc?  The vast majority of the time, I'll live.  Injuries?  Probably, but they're built to keep the squish people inside alive.  There's no such thing as "alive" if the pressure tube fails at 300+ atmospheres.  You're just dead before you know something happened to you.  

 

The closest would be airplanes:  All of which are under hella strict regulations by multiple federal agencies.  (Cuz if something goes wrong, hundreds of people die.)

 

Guess what wasn't under strict government regulation?  hmm?

[mdk777]

11 hours ago, poochyena said:

What are the last 3 vehicles you took a ride in? Did you do extensive research into any of those vehicles first? Should I laugh at you if you die from a vehicle accident because you didn't look into the certification of the vehicle your uber driver was driving? How do you think your family would feel about that?

Short answer...HECK YEAH.

Long answer...

I check the air pressure in all four wheels of my car regularly. I change the oil at 5K with full synthetic. I change the transmission fluid in half the time suggested by manual.

When my brakes squeak, I have them serviced, I check the wear on the disks as I pass all four wheels when getting gas. I never allow them not to be smooth and even.

My car has surround vision, auto braking, auto lane assist and auto distance cruise control.

I actually follow the 3 second rule. This means at 75-80 mph there is something like 10 car lengths of space between me and the car ahead.

 

Innocents are people walking on a sidewalk being killed by a drunk driver.

 

Dare devils take insane risks. The thrill is in cheating death.

 

When death wins, the jokes on them. 

 

PS, No, I never think that people who die base jumping, free climbing, climbing solo without oxygen ... free diving, or any other extreme risk activity should be respected/mourned  or given any pity when they die horribly.

 

I do respect those who knew them who simply shrug their shoulders and say "well, they knew the risks...and they died doing what they loved."

 

But, I still laugh out loud when I hear the report of their obvious and self inflicted demise.