This is Pure False Advertising

[Plouffe]

We don't hate hybrid membrane-mechanical keyboards, we hate when the box doesn't make it 100% clear that that's what you're buying. Despite the deception, is the Gaming Keyboard 550 from HP any good or should you stay very far away?

 

 

Buy a Redragon K530 Pro Draconic Wireless Mechanical Keyboard: https://geni.us/BzSpN
Buy a Logitech G413 Mechanical Keyboard: https://geni.us/uFDH
Check out the CIY GAS67 Wireless Gasket Keyboard Kit: https://lmg.gg/Nui5C
Buy a Havit KB487L Mechanical Keyboard: https://geni.us/lpX4
Buy a SteelSeries Apex 5 Hybrid Keyboard: https://geni.us/aAIPZ

Purchases made through some store links may provide some compensation to Linus Media Group.

 

 

 

[darknessblade]

This keyboard is not even worth the E-waste price of most included keyboards.

 

Its utter garbage.

[Sotxri]

Advertising one thing, selling another...

[h91]

To be fair to the Amazon store listing too, it lists itself as a Mechanical-Membrane keyboard and is priced at £20.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/HP-Pavilion-Mechanical-Membrane-Anti-Ghosting-Adjustable/dp/B09TW439CC/

 

That said, 10kr is still something that needs to be proven, and it claims to have RGB backlighting, which I'm doubtful is proper RGB since the pictures show it as green at most. There's still likely to be better keyboards you can buy for that price... even membrane ones.

[manikyath]

oh HP.. why do you do these things?

 

the unfortunate thing is that HP legitimately makes good hardware.. but then that engineer goes to the toilet and produces acutal dog shit with HP badges on it.

 

HP even 'makes' (prints their logo on OEM stuff.. because acer has the exact same ones) some legitimately good (for a membrane) membrane keyboards... but only includes the good ones with *a very select subset* of devices, and again includes hot garbage with the rest...

 

EDIT: on that note.. i had to edit this post because my <actual mechanical keyboard> is double-pressing the spacebar again.. despite being cherry MX switches and being literally a year old.

the membrane keyboard that i used for a decade before this one.. is still perfectly operational.

 

i dont understand the hype for mechanical keyboards, as long as what's under the key is repeatable and reliable, i dont care if it's a spring or a dome.. and in my experience.. a dome appears to be more reliable than a spring. sorry folks, it is how it is... but that still doesnt warrant any of the false marketing around mem-chanical garbage, which is sometimes so poorly made that the keys fall off (corsair..)

[Brian McKee]

This video was pretty bad for many reasons. Main thing that got me was how incorrect the writers for this video were about 10 key rollover. 10 Key rollover is supposed to be 10 keys MINIMUM. NKey rollover on the other hand would allow you to press all keys on the keyboard at the same time; not the 6 keys minimum that was suggested in the video.

 

The HP keyboard is actually 2 key rollover, like your average keyboard with no diodes and with an optimized matrix can be just fine like with older logitech boards (though that doesn't take away from the false advertising). Can you guys at least double check what you write before posting it?

 

This is pretty basic stuff.

[Admiral Shark]

1 hour ago, h91 said:

That said, 10kr is still something that needs to be proven, and it claims to have RGB backlighting, which I'm doubtful is proper RGB since the pictures show it as green at most. There's still likely to be better keyboards you can buy for that price... even membrane ones.

Doesn't even need to be proved, IMO! - basically as soon as "membrane" is mentioned, being limited to 2KRO is a given. (For context) For anything more than two key combinations, you're at the mercy of the keyboard's matrix (the series of intersections of traces that switches/membrane contact points reside) and how well it's designed. Achieving more than 2KRO is typically thanks to diodes (most high-end keyboards) or capacitance sensing (capsense, like Topre or IBM Model F's buckling springs). Whilst adding diodes to membranes is theoretically possible and capacitive membranes have been a thing in the past, both defeat the point of using a membrane to save cost.

 

Speaking of rollover and if I may be so bold, one piece of feedback I have for the video is regarding how the term "rollover" is used. Whilst this keyboard can handle up to 8 keys in some scenarios, it doesn't go up to "7 or 8 key rollover" as suggested in the video. Rollover is generally understood to be the the minimum amount of keys that can be reliably detected and reported at any time. It's a guarantee of what the keyboard can do in the worst-case scenario. So for keyboards that use a matrix (membrane and PCB-based keyboards that aren't capsense, etc.) but doesn't have diodes, it would always technically be 2-key rollover since 2 keys are the most that can be reliably detected without current flow subsequently going the wrong way (which diodes would normally stop) and interfering with registering other switches. But what is confusing and potentially mismarketed is what manufacturers try to do to mitigate the effects of 2KRO. For example, they could use a matrix that has many more possible intersections needed for the number of keys present to essentially plan around possible scenarios that would cause ghosting and need blocking. Possibly to the point 3 or 4 keys is the perceivable minimum. A recent example of this (technique, not mismarketing) is how Unicomp improved the matrix used on its new Mini Model M keyboards; IBM and Lexmark era and most other Unicomp Model Ms (which yes, are all technically membrane keyboards) usually use a 16-column by 8-row matrix (128 possible intersections) that gives some room for the 83 to 105 keys to not be at the mercy of current flow causing ghosting after pressing two keys that the keyboard's controller has to block (at least so that 3 and 4 key combinations can be done in a lot of places), but Unicomp somewhat mitigated this by using a 16 by 12 matrix (192 possible intersections) for just 87/88 keys that by optimisation of used intersections (and tbh, probability) allows some larger combinations and more of them. What I mean by optimisation is for example they gave most alphabetic keys their own own matrix column or row to allow them at least half of the three alphabetic rows to be pressable together. Thankfully, Unicomp doesn't try to brand this as "10KRO" like HP did. But short of literally each membrane contact having its own dedicated wiring to the keyboard's controller, such techniques are never perfect, hence the range of key combination sizes experienced with this HP keyboard and 2KRO being the technical limit.

 

But to be clear, I agree that this keyboard being marketed as 10KRO is bogus. No doubt about it.

[tkitch]

59 minutes ago, Brian McKee said:

This video was pretty bad for many reasons. Main thing that got me was how incorrect the writers for this video were about 10 key rollover. 10 Key rollover is supposed to be 10 keys MINIMUM. NKey rollover on the other hand would allow you to press all keys on the keyboard at the same time; not the 6 keys minimum that was suggested in the video.

 

The HP keyboard is actually 2 key rollover, like your average keyboard with no diodes and with an optimized matrix can be just fine like with older logitech boards (though that doesn't take away from the false advertising). Can you guys at least double check what you write before posting it?

 

This is pretty basic stuff.

except they showed that (sometimes) they could get 8 (or more)

And sometimes even 2-3 wasn't working.

 

At no point did they say the keyboard had N Key rollover.  What they said was accurate, and you're salty about..  IDK what, honestly.

[Brian McKee]

12 minutes ago, tkitch said:

except they showed that (sometimes) they could get 8 (or more)

And sometimes even 2-3 wasn't working.

 

At no point did they say the keyboard had N Key rollover.  What they said was accurate, and you're salty about..  IDK what, honestly.

How do I respond to something when you're so clearly wrong? They mentioned 10KRO can hit up to 10 which is incorrect it's minimum. And they mentioned as a comparison that NKRO can hit at least 6 which is also wrong as NKRO is the ability to activate all keys at once.

 

A 2KRO keyboard can hit 8 or more keys at once, the only thing it guarantees is at least 2. The IBM model M for example is a 2KRO keyboard but can hit well above that, it just depends on which keys you hit within the matrix.

 

So no, nothing they said regarding rollover was accurate. It was about as wrong as they could have possibly been. Outside of the fact that the keyboard they reviewed was indeed not 10KRO. Pointing out that the writer of this video is wrong is not being salty.

[XNOR]

I don't understand why you would go through the trouble of building almost all of a mechanical keyboard, switches included, and most of a membrane keyboard, only to end up with a weird disappointing amalgamation of both? If you go through the trouble of building those fake switches in what must inevitably be more limited production numbers than the real thing, adding the little bits of copper to make it a real switch would be almost an afterthought and the product would be so much better.

 

It's like they three quarter assed two keyboards and ended up with a half assed keyboard.

[T_bone]

can't believe they recommended the g413, almost like they didn't even test it in the lab for prolonged use, now they might have been lucky with their unit, but my unit had a problem with "W" which when held for prolonged time it stopped working. This is also a commonly known problem for many users so you know, buyer beware.

 

 

 

[XNOR]

1 minute ago, Brian McKee said:

They mentioned 10KRO can hit up to 10 which is incorrect it's minimum.

 

If we're going to be pedantic about phrasing, 10KRO also isn't 10 simultaneous keys at a minimum, as you can use less than 10 fingers/key and it still works. There's always going to be room for misinterpretation if you insist on it.

 

If you're not actively trying to misrepresent or misunderstand the phrasing, what Linus said is correct. That a 10KRO keyboard should register up to 10 keys being pressed simultaneously is correct. Saying it should register up to 11 isn't correct, though it might do. They just didn't add the at a minimum after their explanation it should register up to 10 keys, but the omission isn't actively incorrect, just not entirely complete.

 

I suspect that this is a case of effective communication versus exhaustively complete communication. The latter is great for legal documents and scientific papers, but neither are known for their legibility and entertainment. LTT is a media company in the business of writing content that works, and in this case informing laymen. This involves not only providing information, but also omitting information when exhaustively descriptive statements make things more convoluted and confusing than they have to be.

[Brian McKee]

1 minute ago, XNOR said:

If we're going to be pedantic about phrasing, 10KRO also isn't 10 simultaneous keys at a minimum, as you can use less than 10 fingers/key and it still works. There's always going to be room for misinterpretation if you insist on it.

This isn't being pedantic. This is pointing out that a video is dead wrong. #KRO implies that number is the amount of keys that can be reliably hit simultaneously.

This is not up for debate.

 

Quote

If you're not actively trying to misrepresent or misunderstand the phrasing, what Linus said is correct. That a 10KRO keyboard should register up to 10 keys being pressed simultaneously is correct. Saying it should register up to 11 isn't correct, though it might do. They just didn't add the at a minimum after their explanation it should register up to 10 keys, but the omission isn't actively incorrect, just not entirely complete.

Just because you have no idea what you're talking about does not mean the writer is correct. I will not repeat myself further.

 

Quote

 

I suspect that this is a case of effective communication versus exhaustively complete communication.

No this is a case of spewing nonsense that's completely wrong on a channel that takes your word as authority. It's Linus' job to ensure that what he says is as accurate as possible and it's fair for people to call him out when he misses the mark.

 

[demonix00]

If you think that was bad, its predecessor the gaming keyboard 500 was a lot worse at it advertised anti ghosting and N-key rollover which was complete and utter BULLCRAP as I could only hold down 3 keys before it stopped accepting any other key presses, and to add insult to injury a HyperX pure rubber dome mush board was better then that crap and I would still be using it if it wasn't for the fact that it frequently wasn't detected when windows started up and had to be unplugged and plugged back in for it to work

.

But, hey, I'm now using a much better and actual mechanical keyboard as well as this video giving a few options for a future replacement.

[XNOR]

Just now, Brian McKee said:

This isn't being pedantic. This is pointing out that a video is dead wrong. #KRO implies that number is the amount of keys that can be reliably hit simultaneously.

This is not up for debate.

The video states "Another feature they've listed here is 10KRO, or 10 key rollover. This means that our keyboard should be able to register up to 10 different keys pressed simultaneously."  This is correct. It's not up to 9. It's not up to 11. It's up to 10. At a minimum.

 

Would it have been more accurate to add "at a minimum"? Yes. Does this mean the statement without it is incorrect, or even dead wrong? Nah.
 

Just now, Brian McKee said:

 

No this is a case of spewing nonsense that's completely wrong on a channel that takes your word as authority. It's Linus' job to ensure that what he says is as accurate as possible and it's fair for people to call him out when he misses the mark.

 

 

Insisting everything is exhaustively accurate isn't attainable. It'd mean high school teachers wouldn't teach basic physics and formulae, but go straight to quantum physics and how everything else emerges from it. "No Timmy, gravity isn't a force" That's clearly never going to work. You present information which is correct enough to children on a level they can parse. And teacher aren't even in the business of also entertaining. Linus' job is to write and present videos which entertain, and which inform the target audience appropriately.

 

Besides, you're conveniently ignoring you're also omitting information for the sake of brevity and convenience. You said "They mentioned 10KRO can hit up to 10 which is incorrect it's minimum." I can say that's incorrect, 10 keys is not the minimum for it to work. You can press 6 and it'll work just fine. You don't need to press all 10 for it to start working.

 

Now I know that's not what you meant to say, but you weren't exhaustively accurate in your statement. You were dead wrong, if I insist on being pedantic. And that's before getting into punctuation.

 

Just now, Brian McKee said:

 

Just because you have no idea what you're talking about does not mean the writer is correct. I will not repeat myself further.

"You're wrong, but I will not discuss it!" just means you ragequit and concede the point.
 

[AndreiArgeanu]

I've had a similar keyboard to the HP one a couple years ago. Still around here somewhere. Except it wasn't advertised as mechanical. Just had MX style keycaps and stem that pressed on some membrane. The keyboard was pretty nice to use though. Oh and it's still a "mechanical" keyboard on amazon.

[Brian McKee]

1 hour ago, XNOR said:

The video states "Another feature they've listed here is 10KRO, or 10 key rollover. This means that our keyboard should be able to register up to 10 different keys pressed simultaneously."  This is correct. It's not up to 9. It's not up to 11. It's up to 10. At a minimum.

 

Would it have been more accurate to add "at a minimum"? Yes. Does this mean the statement without it is incorrect, or even dead wrong? Nah.

I'll let you think about what "up to" means.

 

Quote

Insisting everything is exhaustively accurate isn't attainable. It'd mean high school teachers wouldn't teach basic physics and formulae, but go straight to quantum physics and how everything else emerges from it. "No Timmy, gravity isn't a force" That's clearly never going to work. You present information which is correct enough to children on a level they can parse. And teacher aren't even in the business of also entertaining. Linus' job is to write and present videos which entertain, and which inform the target audience appropriately.

Haha, you must be joking. Comparing deep diving advanced topics with getting basic terminology right. If they're going to take the time to explain #KRO they should take the time to not be blatantly wrong. Saying NKRO has a minimum of 6KRO is demonstrably false and provable with a single google search.

 

Quote

"You're wrong, but I will not discuss it!" just means you ragequit and concede the point.

It's absolutely exhausting talking to someone as thick headed as you. I'm not being paid so I won't waste my time if you won't actually try to understand what I'm typing. But sure whatever helps you sleep at night.

[XNOR]

17 minutes ago, Brian McKee said:

I'll let you think about what "up to" means.

If you'd exhaustively read my previous post you'd already know:

 

1 hour ago, XNOR said:

It's not up to 9. It's not up to 11. It's up to 10.

 

So why do you think they added the "up to" to the quoted sentence? I'd invite you to stop reading here, and actually think about it.

 

Quote

Another feature they've listed here is 10KRO, or 10 key rollover. This means that our keyboard should be able to register up to 10 different keys pressed simultaneously.

 

Click the spoiler for the answer:

 

 

Because the keyboard should also be able to register 4 different keys pressed simultaneously, or 7 different keys pressed simultaneously. But not 11 different keys pressed simultaneously. It might. But might not. So it's up to 10 simultaneous keys, but not exclusively 10 simultaneous keys.

 Without that "up to" you're saying the keyboard can register 10 different keys pressed simultaneously, and only 10 different keys pressed simultaneously. The sentence is dead wrong without "up to" in it.

 

[dogwitch]

i am seeing false  ad. so bad now.

that you point out  to people that its a lie.

 

they think you lying to them.

 

 

[Ubersonic]

These type of keys used to be referred to as Amstrad keys, because they were popularised by the PC company Amstrad in the 80s.

 

There are actually some very decent ones out there, I.E Lenovo have a decent one for their pro workstations that feels identical to an Asus ROG Claymore II (a £280 keyboard).

[Brian McKee]

51 minutes ago, XNOR said:

If you'd exhaustively read my previous post you'd already know:

 

 

So why do you think they added the "up to" to the quoted sentence? I'd invite you to stop reading here, and actually think about it.

 

 

Click the spoiler for the answer:

 

  Hide contents

Because the keyboard should also be able to register 4 different keys pressed simultaneously, or 7 different keys pressed simultaneously. But not 11 different keys pressed simultaneously. It might. But might not. So it's up to 10 simultaneous keys, but not exclusively 10 simultaneous keys.

 Without that "up to" you're saying the keyboard can register 10 different keys pressed simultaneously, and only 10 different keys pressed simultaneously. The sentence is dead wrong without "up to" in it.

 

I understand your point, however the concept is not hard enough to think that people wouldn't understand explaining the concept correctly. When you describe it as 'up to' it feels like any keyboard that can hit up to 10 keys at the same time is 10kro which it is not. I have many 2KRO keyboards that can hit over 10 for example.

 

Simply saying that "this keyboard should be able to always press 10 keys at the same time no matter the combination" and showing that it doesn't isn't exactly a difficult concept. It's extremely surface level stuff.

 

No kidding keyboards can press lower combos, I'm pretty sure no one would think "oh so it CAN ONLY PRESS 10 KEYS AT ONCE??? HOW DO I TYPE????".

 

[oiaohm]

There is something  that people and makes this false advertising even worse.  "hybrid membrane-mechanical keyboards" switch point is bottom of the key press vs a true MX switch that is about middle of key-press.  IBM old rocking spring switches about switches in the top 25% to the trigger point.

 

https://boardsandmice.com/keyboards/do-mechanical-keyboards-help-with-rsi/

I cannot find the study papers but keyboard with mid point switching or above have been proven reduce rsi.    Cherry MX blue click at the switching point I know can be annoying was designed for RSI so person was not hitting somewhat solid stop at bottom of the keyboard.

 

What makes this particular bad person has the early stage of RSI told to get a mechanical keyboard to slow down progression and with the false advertisement buys that HP false flag product.

 

Please note I am not saying that membrane based keyboards don't have their place because they do.   Membrane keyboard is simpler to make liquid resistant.

 

Sorry to say HP 10KRO is not 100 percent false advertising.  There is a problem with KRO we don't have a sold standard to say that it has to be the min value.    The HP keyboard has 10 zones so they are claiming 10KRO because in the absolute best case you can press down 10 keys at once but worse case it can be impossible to hold down 3..   

 

I do have an 6KRO advertised keyboard but its 6KRO min and 7KRO max.   The keyboard roll over in my keyboard is effect controller chip limitation.   In fact the keyboard I am typing on back in the day had a NKRO model more expensive yes the difference between them is firmware so my keyboard is firmware limited.    HP keyboard is keyboard design limited.

 

I do think keyboards should come with a min and max keyboard roll over rating.    HP claiming the highest possible value 10KRO is not false advertising but instead is what called misleading .advertising because its factually correct but miss leads the consumer into believing the product can do something it cannot do.

 

Most people ar are not aware of the difference between false and misleading advertising both are illegal in most countries for business to-do.

 

General rule to be legally safe is under claim and over deliver.

[oiaohm]

41 minutes ago, Brian McKee said:

I understand your point, however the concept is not hard enough to think that people wouldn't understand explaining the concept correctly. When you describe it as 'up to' it feels like any keyboard that can hit up to 10 keys at the same time is 10kro which it is not. I have many 2KRO keyboards that can hit over 10 for example.

 

I have a few 2KRO keyboards that will only do 3 those are cheap piles of evil but they are not the worse.   The worst I have worst is 2KRO max yes you cannot do control-alt-del on it because that is 3 keys and it only accepts max of 2 and that is controller locked.

 

I also have 6KRO keyboard that controller locked upper limit is 7 keys.

 

I am not saying what HP done claiming 10KRO is right.   Up to 10KRO is most likely still illegal under miss leading advertising because consumer could and will most likely take this wrong way.

 

2KRO with max of 12 keys able to be pressed at the same time keyboard do exist in large number finding those from the specification sheet is kind of hard.

 

"The term key rollover denotes the number of keys that can be simultaneously registered by a keyboard."

 

The problem is the term key rollover it can be read both ways one that its the max and the other that its the min.   General rule of advertising to be legal is under promise and over deliver in other words you should in most case use the min define of a term.    HP calling their keyboard up to 10KRO is inside the define of the term but its miss leading advertising because consumer will think product can do more than what it really can.     Legally you want the consumer to buy a product thinking it can do less that want it can so when they find more features it fine in most cases.

 

Lot of ways I would find it useful if keyboards include min and max values for keyboard rollover.   There are times where a hard locked 6KRO 7max is less useful than a 2KRO 10 max.   Yes nice if the standard was 2KRO10 and the like.  Min on one side max on the other.   Yes seeing a 2KRO2 would not buy that keyboard unless it special case.   Point of sale system disabling control-alt-del can be a good thing.

[Brian McKee]

7 minutes ago, oiaohm said:

 

I have a few 2KRO keyboards that will only do 3 those are cheap piles of evil but they are not the worse.   The worst I have worst is 2KRO max yes you cannot do control-alt-del on it because that is 3 keys and it only accepts max of 2 and that is controller locked.

 

I also have 6KRO keyboard that controller locked upper limit is 7 keys.

 

I am not saying what HP done claiming 10KRO is right.   Up to 10KRO is most likely still illegal under miss leading advertising because consumer could and will most likely take this wrong way.

 

2KRO with max of 12 keys able to be pressed at the same time keyboard do exist in large number finding those from the specification sheet is kind of hard.

 

"The term key rollover denotes the number of keys that can be simultaneously registered by a keyboard."

 

The problem is the term key rollover it can be read both ways one that its the max and the other that its the min.   General rule of advertising to be legal is under promise and over deliver in other words you should in most case use the min define of a term.    HP calling their keyboard up to 10KRO is inside the define of the term but its miss leading advertising because consumer will think product can do more than what it really can.     Legally you want the consumer to buy a product thinking it can do less that want it can so when they find more features it fine in most cases.

 

Lot of ways I would find it useful if keyboards include min and max values for keyboard rollover.   There are times where a hard locked 6KRO 7max is less useful than a 2KRO 10 max.   Yes nice if the standard was 2KRO10 and the like.  Min on one side max on the other.   Yes seeing a 2KRO2 would not buy that keyboard unless it special case.   Point of sale system disabling control-alt-del can be a good thing.

I just want to be clear that I'm not defending HP. It should have been advertised as "gaming optimized matrix" or other such lingo I've seen other keyboards use. I'm saying that the video should be clear and specify that 10kro should always hit 10 keys at the very least. The way they explain it leaves it up to interpretation and is more confusing.

[Radium_Angel]

6 hours ago, manikyath said:

the unfortunate thing is that HP legitimately makes good hardware

Citation needed...IME HP hasn't made a good product in decades, and the good stuff they did make (scientific instruments, their scientific calculators) they spun off to concentrate on the bottom of the barrel consumer crap.