Company Black List?

[liam b]

With all these different companies out there doing shady stuff (anti consumer, keeping consumers data even though they said they wouldn't, etc), I was thinking it could be useful for there to be something like a black list on the ltt labs page (or elsewhere) that gives consumers a quick look up of what companies to avoid and the reason why.

• I know almost every major tech company is NOT perfect when it comes to some of these things (especially anti consumer) which is sad to say. The point of this would be to highlight ones doing blatantly bad things that need to be called out and have customers vote with their wallets against them
  • Edit 1 (adding): I know something like this would basically ban/black list all the major pc component makers(nvidia/amd/intel) making it very hard to build/upgrade a pc or fix broken parts. It would be extremely tough to boycott these companies too. However the hope/thought I have is that this would hopefully hold the companies more accountable of all the bad acts they try and pull on consumers
  • Edit 2 (adding): Calling this/it a black list may have been a bit extreme on my end (given how hard that would be given the above comment i made in edit 1). I still think something along those lines or an advisory/cautionary list is still useful. Obviously customers should do their research but having a page like this as a go to (similar to how we go to ltt and other reviewers for general tech reviews) where they can get a quick summary and easily stay up to date on what companies to be cautions of is important. 
• I keep up with the Wan show vod highlights pretty regularly so I am usually decently well informed with the news headlines of these bad acting companies
  •  However it can hard to see how some of these issues are resolved
    • missing an episode 
    • Company doesn't respond or their response doesn't get covered (I know the wan show covers a lot of info so no fault on ltt here) 
    • Edit 1 (adding): I know its important for consumers to do research but things can go overlooked and other times its hard to tell how outdated or up to date some articles are on sites. 
      • Also Just having another source of media for people to research before making a decision can do nothing but help consumers stay more informed.   
• Could include companies that were dropped as sponsors 
  • Anker comes to mind with the whole Eufy debacle 
  • I do understand that this could potentially lead to legal problems so this may not entirely be possible

 

A ranking/sorting system would be cool to highlight the things a company had done. (examples I have here are just my quick thoughts, stuff obviously doesn't have to go in these exact categories)

• A minor thing and 'be cautious' about them
  • bad customer support on multiple occasions 
  • lobbying against right to repair
• Medium thing 'avoid if possible'
  • company going against perpetual licenses 
• Horrendous 'avoid at all costs'
  • covered up data breach   
  • heavily anti consumer practices 
  • blatant lies about how consumer data is kept 
• Ranking of how well they address incident or policies
  • Good being: how EVGA has resolved some of their gpu issues with the thermal pads 
  • Bad being: refusal to change 

 

As stated in the beginning its hard to find a company that doesn't do at least one of these things. Especially  and avoiding certain companies where there is a Monopoly/Oligopoly (cough cough NVIDIA/AMD, Alphabet/facebook, etc. ). But for companies where there is a wider market share this could be useful! 

•  Would still be good to keep a log of the things the things the Monopolies/Oligopolies do since that type of information would be useful

Curious to hear all of your thoughts! Definitely know this idea draft isn't perfect but I feel like something along these lines would really benefit from this as consumers. 

 

 

Edit 1 (adding): in summary obviously it would be hard to avoid all the companies preforming bad acts since so many do something in one way or another. In cases where there is large market share, the hope is to hold them accountable since there is is hard to act as a whole to do anything. For cases where there is another option, it could hopefully get consumers to vote with their wallet and force the company to change. 

Edited January 31, 2023 by liam b
Edits made to address main responses made by commenters. (Ill make individual responses too, just addressing the main ones to hopefully avoid repeat comments)

[CT854]

Your choice to blacklist a company is exactly that -- your choice.

 

It's your responsibility to stay up to date on any objectionable behavior these companies engage in and respond accordingly. Nobody is going to tell you which companies to blacklist because everyone's moral compass and limits are different.

[Blqckqut]

if ur buying from a retailer isnt it just your responsibility to know if its good to buy from them, it takes just a few minutes and a few google searches to know if they are trustworthy

[liam b]

Fair points are being made. 

Calling it a black list may have been a bit extreme but I still think something like this could be useful 

Obviously as a consumer its important to research things but companies will often cover stuff up and some things may just fly under the radar of larger publications making it hard for consumers to be knowledgeable about them. For the general consumer who isn't really a tech enthusiast, this could be useful (imo) by warning them about certain issues they weren't aware of or missed when looking elsewhere.    

 

My main thought is having another place outside large media outlets like the verge/tech radar/etc. where this type information is reported/investigated and kept up to date would be useful for consumers and can be used to try and hold companies more accountable. Having a database created by knowledgeable/talented/trusted team such as ltt/lmg would be perfect for this. (I know this wouldn't necessarily be easy to work and keep update, but the general benefit for customers would be worth it imo)   

 

[Poinkachu]

Just now, liam b said:

Fair points are being made. 

Calling it a black list may have been a bit extreme but I still think something like this could be useful 

Obviously as a consumer its important to research things but companies will often cover stuff up and some things may just fly under the radar of larger publications making it hard for consumers to be knowledgeable about them. For the general consumer who isn't really a tech enthusiast, this could be useful (imo) by warning them about certain issues they weren't aware of or missed when looking elsewhere.    

 

My main thought is having another place outside large media outlets like the verge/tech radar/etc. where this type information is reported/investigated and kept up to date would be useful for consumers and can be used to try and hold companies more accountable. Having a database created by knowledgeable/talented/trusted team such as ltt/lmg would be perfect for this. (I know this wouldn't necessarily be easy to work and keep update, but the general benefit for customers would be worth it imo)   

 

The biggest problem is maintaining such data to be uptodate pretty much requires a lot of work & resources.
Surveys, validating reports, checking if the company has changed whether in practice or ownership, etc.
 

Not to mention when things becomes like GPUpocalypse era, the list most likely suddenly becomes "invisible".

 

Honestly, if PC community is able to strongly boycott something, maybe RTX40 price would be lower. Unfortunately, I don't think this ever happened, nor will it ever.

[Stahlmann]

If you'd blacklist every company that has done shady stuff or has shown anti consumer behavior then frankly you'd not be able to build a PC anymore. Out of all the brands i have had interactions with so far there are only 2 that have been exclusively positive. Noctua and Beyerdynamic.

 

If you want to blacklist a company then do it. Just don't try to guilt other people into adopting your personal decision.

[liam b]

1 minute ago, Poinkachu said:

The biggest problem is maintaining such data to be uptodate pretty much requires a lot of work & resources.
Surveys, validating reports, checking if the company has changed whether in practice or ownership, etc.
 

Not to mention when things becomes like GPUpocalypse era, the list most likely suddenly becomes "invisible".

 

Honestly, if PC community is able to strongly boycott something, maybe RTX40 price would be lower. Unfortunately, I don't think this ever happened, nor will it ever.

Yeah... it would definitely be tough to maintain. 

And yeah that would be really tough. Hard to say "avoid nvidia and amd" (or any other company with crazy high market share) since then it would be basically impossible to build/upgrade a new computer or replace broken parts. Would definitely be challenging part of it since getting a collective whole bunch of people to do anything is tough.

I do feel like this could be useful for areas with more companies (eufy in my original example) where there are more competitors. Obviously there are challenges within this where the company committing the bad acts may offer unique features that make choosing a competitor more difficult. 


However, holding bad acting companies is definitely important imo, and the hope would be companies would do their best to stay off this list by doing good things, or resolving their bad actions in a meaningful way (and not just trying to cover them up further or try more sneaky stuff)

[liam b]

32 minutes ago, Stahlmann said:

If you'd blacklist every company that has done shady stuff or has shown anti consumer behavior then frankly you'd not be able to build a PC anymore. Out of all the brands i have had interactions with so far there are only 2 that have been exclusively positive. Noctua and Beyerdynamic.

 

If you want to blacklist a company then do it. Just don't try to guilt other people into adopting your personal decision.

Yeah it would basically be impossible to avoid a company that doesn't do something bad. 

and the idea is it would be curated by ltt/lmg (i know it would require a lot of work to keep updated). The idea is you go to this for the same reason you would go to a one of their and other reviews on YouTube- to get advice and do research on what companies to avoid (in the case of this list) and what products are/aren't worth buying (in the case of the yt vids). Obviously there are chances of overlap/conflicting info, but in the case where its a good product and bad company, a consumer can make an informed decision off of that 

[Heats with Nvidia]

12 minutes ago, liam b said:

Yeah it would basically be impossible to avoid a company that doesn't do something bad. 

and the idea is it would be curated by ltt/lmg (i know it would require a lot of work to keep updated). The idea is you go to this for the same reason you would go to a one of their and other reviews on YouTube- to get advice and do research on what companies to avoid (in the case of this list) and what products are/aren't worth buying (in the case of the yt vids). Obviously there are chances of overlap/conflicting info, but in the case where its a good product and bad company, a consumer can make an informed decision off of that 

This would be a really hard to maintain list, because everybody has different reasons to blacklist a company. For example, the 3 biggest companies on my personal blacklist are Facebook, Google and Apple and most of the people i know, can`t live without their services and some even love them and see some of my reasons as positives (Especially Apple...). In the end, even i still have an old Google account, that i still use for emails. Because it just survived while i lost all the other ones. Although i eventually want to get rid of them.

[Roswell]

1 hour ago, Poinkachu said:

Honestly, if PC community is able to strongly boycott something, maybe RTX40 price would be lower. Unfortunately, I don't think this ever happened, nor will it ever.

It did happen before with the 8000 series. Nvidia didn’t venture back out into absurd pricing again until testing the waters with the 690. Then came the Titan and it’s been silly ever since.

[FlappyBoobs]

Intel, AMD, Microsoft, ARM, Apple, Nvidia, Via, SG etc all do dodgy shit. If you blacklist them all you'd have no electronics.

[WildDagwood]

Easier solution would be to just not buy anything from any of them, until you've seen independent reviews of what you're considering.

 

Most of them are scummy in one way or another, and most (all?) of them have had some backlash from the community. Just don't buy into hype trains and use some common sense/perspective vs. alternatives when buying.

[da na]

I don't refuse to buy anything from Amazon, but I have had terrible experience with the company and I try to avoid them when possible. Gotten too many empty packages, or the wrong item, etc.

[Arika]

And why would you trust lmg/ltt labs to create and maintain such a list? Lmg isn't exactly squeaky clean or unbiased.

 

This could also stray into market manipulation territory if someone could feasibly prove that such a list is having a real impact on the companies on said list.

[divito]

Anyone could make and maintain a compendium of companies that have poor customer service, ethics issues, anticompetitive issues, etc...

The issue is the spectrum of behavior acceptable to consumers is ridiculously vast; members of this forum alone debate incessantly over shades of grey and other minutiae. The other problem is that most questionable practices, scandals and the like are usually not public knowledge, or end up contractually gagged. 

 

[liam b]

11 hours ago, Arika S said:

And why would you trust lmg/ltt labs to create and maintain such a list? Lmg isn't exactly squeaky clean or unbiased.

 

This could also stray into market manipulation territory if someone could feasibly prove that such a list is having a real impact on the companies on said list.

I would say the same reason we go to them for reviews of products. Obviously no one is perfect, but I think their willingness to drop a sponsor pretty instantaneously such as Anker with the Eufy privacy issues does help give them some credibility/trustworthiness.  

The legal issue is a very valid concern and I would not be surprised for companies to threaten all sorts of legal action against them even though they would not have any real legal merit to it imo. Still could be costly (this is coming from an american, im not exactly sure how Canadian legal system works or how international cases would be dealt) 

[liam b]

7 hours ago, divito said:

Anyone could make and maintain a compendium of companies that have poor customer service, ethics issues, anticompetitive issues, etc...

The issue is the spectrum of behavior acceptable to consumers is ridiculously vast; members of this forum alone debate incessantly over shades of grey and other minutiae. The other problem is that most questionable practices, scandals and the like are usually not public knowledge, or end up contractually gagged. 

 

Those are good points.

And yeah, the line is pretty diverse for lots of people. Having an explanation why would definitely be necessary. And people shouldn't take this list as a scripture. More just a way to keep up to date and stay knowledgeable. 

One of the main things I was thinking would be including/highlighting companies discussed on the Wan Show that ltt either stops using, or drops as a sponsor (or other similar situation). Companies like Anker (and the eufy debacle), teamviewer (the predatory payments even after perpetual license-I can't remember if they stopped using it but still would be something they could advise against given there are alternatives). This is the stuff I can think off the top of my head. 

Hope this makes sense. I know the idea isn't perfect but I feel like with the right implementation it could be very beneficial to the community and consumers as a whole 

 

[Radium_Angel]

I only actively boycott two companies

 

Exxon and HP.

Exxon because of the Valdez (accidents happen, but whining about cleaning it up is beyond the pale)

HP because their products blow goats.

[Lurking]

16 minutes ago, Radium_Angel said:

I only actively boycott two companies

 

Exxon and HP.

Exxon because of the Valdez (accidents happen, but whining about cleaning it up is beyond the pale)

HP because their products blow goats.

If you mean you don't go to Exxon gas stations, your boycott is nearly meaningless. The gasoline in your area comes from a few refineries and storage tanks and all brands of gas station get the same gasoline from the same facility. Where that gasoline, or crude oil, comes from depends more on the the distance and shipping options. Like the West coast is more likely to use Russian or Saudi oil, the East coast more African oil, and Texas, well Texan and so on. The "Jones Act" makes shipping from a US port to another US port very expensive. So often it is cheaper to import oil from very far away than from a nearby US location and export US oil to far location in return. And different crudes also are more likely to be used for either kerosene, diesel and so on. Refineries often are optimized for certain crude oil types. And all the smaller gas station chains don't have oil fields, tankers etc. They get the same gasoline. Some gasoline also comes from Europe (and diesel in return goes there since the US is more a gasoline than a diesel user and a certain amount of crude oil gives you a fraction of diesel/gasoline/kerosene that is hard to change). So you literally have no control or knowledge what oil field, tanker or company the gasoline you buy came from. And most oil companies had avoidable accidents that happened because corners were cut. And cleanup isn't like it never happened. And they all only cleaned up what they were legally required to or what their PR departments told them they have to do. I wouldn't buy Shell over Chevron because they are like organic chickens with happy lives in really nice gardens.

 

There won't be agreement on most companies on a boycott list. My boycott tool is my wallet. I wouldn't be caught dead buying Dell and HP, but apparently many IT departments and private buyers buy them anyway and are OK with disposable PCs they need to replace after 3 years. 

 

And with very few exceptions, for every brand there will be one consumer who feel that they were treated badly (justified or not). So you end up with a very short list of items you still can buy. 

[TVwazhere]

18 minutes ago, Lurking said:

most oil companies had avoidable accidents that happened because corners were cut. And cleanup isn't like it never happened. And they all only cleaned up what they were legally required to or what their PR departments told them they have to do.

[aron304]

my guess is because it doesn't benefit LTT to have a blacklist or at least a public black list
Linus on the Wan show said something about not making fun of your audience. he was talking about how if he made fun of vista users he would be making fun of 1 percent of his audience or something like that, but he gets 0 benefit out of it. im sure something similar is for a public black list as well

[mr moose]

Step 1,  create company blacklist

step 2, Add every company to it

Step 3.  Go live in a cave and play with chalk.

 

 

[BlueChinchillaEatingDorito]

On 1/31/2023 at 1:35 AM, liam b said:

and the idea is it would be curated by ltt/lmg 

That is legitimately a horrifying idea knowing there's a crazy subset of fans...

20 hours ago, aron304 said:

my guess is because it doesn't benefit LTT to have a blacklist or at least a public black list
Linus on the Wan show said something about not making fun of your audience. he was talking about how if he made fun of vista users he would be making fun of 1 percent of his audience or something like that, but he gets 0 benefit out of it. im sure something similar is for a public black list as well

Though that went straight out the window when it came to the whole backpack situation. And with that one he not only doubled downed on it, he made a shirt (and in turn profited) out of it. So I guess in that case, there was benefit.