Solid State Active Cooling at CES 2023 - innovation or a fancy gimmick?

[Mufin.]

So I just came across a video describing a rather innovative approach to cooling. Being the kind of person who loves all the new gimmicks, it made me hyped enough to share it further, so here it is: the Airjet.

 

 

It uses a MEMS membrane to move air through a chamber made of copper, and that is supposed to be mounted on any kind of heat plate. The company claims extremely high efficiency, and also tiny size compared to the traditional approach that includes fans. I don't want to just repeat what was already described better than I'll ever do, so I suggest to check out the interview from CES 2023, with CEO of Frore Systems:

 

 

 

PCWorld also released a more comprehensive article about that as a follow up: https://www.pcworld.com/article/1388332/new-airjet-chips-can-double-a-laptops-performance.html

 

Supposedly the company cooperates with Intel, which makes them look obviously much more legitimate, however I can see huge potential in this technology. Would love to see LTT team cover this subject more deeply.

 

My thoughts on this, apart from being hyped like a little girl, are that this is only a prototype design and I can see A LOT of space for improvements. E.g. they claim to push the air directly on a bottom surface, which is perpendicular to the flow direction. From my not great knowledge of fluid mechanics I can already tell that this would cause a highly turbulent flow, differential pressure distribution across the chamber which in effect would cause the heat distribution within that bottom surface uneven. Directing the flow towards the exit would help in my oppinion.

 

What do you guys think? Let's make the LTT staff see this!

[Needfuldoer]

2 minutes ago, Mufin. said:

What do you guys think?

You can break the laws of man, but not the laws of physics. I don't see this thing moving enough air to cool any kind of appreciable load. ARM based laptops, maybe.

[tkitch]

neat?  Absolutely
Potentially real world applications?  Yup!

But I don't see that clearing the 200+ Watts needed to cool a cpu

[Mufin.]

6 minutes ago, tkitch said:

But I don't see that clearing the 200+ Watts needed to cool a cpu

Yeah, they admit that so far it's limited to only up to 10W of heat removal power (for a single module) and that it's not yet aimed at high performance CPU's, but like I said, there's a big improvement potential

[tkitch]

22 minutes ago, Mufin. said:

Yeah, they admit that so far it's limited to only up to 10W of heat removal power (for a single module) and that it's not yet aimed at high performance CPU's, but like I said, there's a big improvement potential

I could see this getting up to U/T series cpu's which are 15-35W parts, so maybe there?  But that's probably about it.

[Kisai]

2 hours ago, Mufin. said:

Yeah, they admit that so far it's limited to only up to 10W of heat removal power (for a single module) and that it's not yet aimed at high performance CPU's, but like I said, there's a big improvement potential

That's still enough for a mobile phone style CPU, so that might allow something like a flagship phone or tablet run at a higher speed. If it could scale up to a desktop GPU/CPU and eliminate the noise, that is a game changer.

 

[CarlBar]

In theory there's no reason you couldn't build a finstack on a traditional tower heatpipe cooler where each fin has one or more of these integrated into it. The big question is: "what is the power efficiency?" Followed by: "What's the cost per area to make these?"

 

In theory it could be useful but there's enough questions and variables that the answer may be complicated and unfavorable to high power applications.

[Doobeedoo]

We've seen something like this. But yeah actual heat removal though... Really we'll be better off with different semi-conductor materials that don't heat up as much.

[Quackers101]

There is a couple threads on this and an older one.

when it starts to move more air than heat, but can handle more resistance?

to the need for good surface area? then again recommended on smaller/less demanding devices.

https://linustechtips.com/topic/1471374-not-a-big-fan-new-solid-state-cooler-can-blow-air-with-no-moving-parts/

Edited January 20, 2023 by Quackers101

[Salv8 (sam)]

i'd wait until it's out of the prototype stage has has been tested in real world scenarios by independent entity's before seeing where it can go.

seems interesting and cool tho.

[saltycaramel]

I just heard about these on a podcast (ATP).

 

How about using these things in face-mounted PCs. (see the fans of a Meta Quest Pro below for comparison)

 

 

We'll need thinner and thinner cooling solution for these headsets..I'm beyond curious about Apple's cooling solution for their upcoming 96W notebook-grade headset, 2-3 times hotter than a Quest..

 

[ewitte]

10 hours ago, Needfuldoer said:

You can break the laws of man, but not the laws of physics. I don't see this thing moving enough air to cool any kind of appreciable load. ARM based laptops, maybe.

There are no "laws" just localized observations that tend to fit a formula... until it doesn't (and these change ALL the time as we learn new things).  The video has some good information, yes, it is limited to like 10-20 watts right now.

[SassyPants]

i saw the pc world vid. honestly the rep is terrible at explaining.

I agree with the use cases, mobile and tablets, i think the dust proof claims would be huge for tough books etc. 

 

[WereCat]

I saw this maybe 10-12y ago in an article about how this will cool notebooks... trying to dig out the article but I doubt I'll find it, dang. (assuming this is using the piezoelectric effect). If not, disregard my comment.

[SeriousDad69]

They need to put these on Gen 4 & Gen 5 nvme drives.

[Moonzy]

interested to see the longevity of the cooler

air at high velocity can chip away at the material that it's hitting, plus the vibrating array will probably slowly fail over time due to dust (which will still be a thing even with dust filters)

interesting concept though, definitely hope to see it applied at places where thin cooling solution is needed (M.2 ssd for example)

[CarlBar]

13 hours ago, WereCat said:

I saw this maybe 10-12y ago in an article about how this will cool notebooks... trying to dig out the article but I doubt I'll find it, dang. (assuming this is using the piezoelectric effect). If not, disregard my comment.

 

This isn't piezo.

[RelativelyFine]

Jet impingement has been used in larger cooling solutions for a long time, namely gas turbine cooling, rocket launcher cooling and high-density electrical equipment cooling. This basically takes it and miniaturises it with the help of cutting edge research in membrane technology.

 

This is actually incredibly impressive. Each module moves 10watts of power. It is possible to use vapor chambers(which are essentially superconductors) to move heat to these modules. Just with those two technologies, it will easily be able to overpower fan-based cooling on thinner laptops, and perhaps with clever design, can compete with larger coolers by overlaying these modules between vapor chambers.

 

As mentioned, jet impingement is a technique in thermodynamics used in cooling jet engines. Try blowing a fan at it and see how it goes.

 

The main component follows the same manufacturing process as semiconductors so it’s pretty much guaranteed to improve at a considerable rate.

[SansVarnic]

On 1/20/2023 at 6:16 AM, Mufin. said:

What do you guys think? Let's make the LTT staff see this!

LMG staff do peruse the TN and GD sections for news that they can feature on WAN. Dont worry they will see it.

[BaidDSB]

On 1/20/2023 at 5:56 PM, Mufin. said:

Yeah, they admit that so far it's limited to only up to 10W of heat removal power (for a single module) and that it's not yet aimed at high performance CPU's, but like I said, there's a big improvement potential

they said they can handle 28 watts of peak power usage

[Roswell]

23 hours ago, ewitte said:

There are no "laws" just localized observations that tend to fit a formula... until it doesn't (and these change ALL the time as we learn new things).  The video has some good information, yes, it is limited to like 10-20 watts right now.

They’re literally “laws” because it’s been thoroughly proven in the scientific method for generations now. That’s how science works…
 

Unless there’s been some radical changes in the understanding of thermodynamics in the last 150 years that I’m unaware of, this reads as your typical science denying nonsense.

[WhitetailAni]

1 hour ago, Roswell said:

They’re literally “laws” because it’s been thoroughly proven in the scientific method for generations now. That’s how science works...

Nothing is ever proven in science, it's just what we currently accept as true. The "laws of thermodynamics" are only laws because so far everything we've observed points to those equations and other limits being in place

[Roswell]

28 minutes ago, FakeKGB said:

Nothing is ever proven in science, it's just what we currently accept as true. The "laws of thermodynamics" are only laws because so far everything we've observed points to those equations and other limits being in place

I suggest reading about the differences between hypotheses, theories, and laws in the scientific method.

 

The laws of thermodynamics are objectively observable facts. That’s why they’re laws. 
 

I could have worded it better previously, doesn’t really change anything though. Unless there’s some drastic change in the fabric of our observable reality, the laws of thermodynamics aren’t going to magically change any time soon.

[LAwLz]

1 hour ago, Roswell said:

I suggest reading about the differences between hypotheses, theories, and laws in the scientific method.

 

The laws of thermodynamics are objectively observable facts. That’s why they’re laws. 
 

I could have worded it better previously, doesn’t really change anything though. Unless there’s some drastic change in the fabric of our observable reality, the laws of thermodynamics aren’t going to magically change any time soon.

Are you saying that the laws of thermodynamics does not allow for the claims this company makes to be true?

If so, can you please show the calculations using the laws of thermodynamics that disproves their claims?

Sorry for being pedantic but I don't like when people go "the laws of physics doesn't allow it", when the person saying this doesn't understand the laws of physics, nor have actually checked if said thing is possible or not.  "It's the laws of physics" is not an automatic "I win" statement unless you can actually prove that the laws of physics agrees.

 

 

Anyway, I feel like my knowledge regarding cooling is too limited to comment on how big of a deal this is. The "removes 10 watts of heating" at 1 watt of power doesn't sound that good, but at the same time I don't know how many "watts of power" various fans removes.

This company has apparently gotten investments from Intel and Qualcomm, so I assume that if those two companies believes in them then their product probably has a market.

 

I hope something good comes out of this. It seems like it has the potential to be a very big deal, but I have concerns about reliability over time (what if dusts gets into it?), performance (will it only be able to cool chips with 10 watt TDPs? If you add more to increase cooling, how does it scale? What's power consumption like compared to other coolers? Lots of questions waiting to be answered.

[Kisai]

2 hours ago, Roswell said:

I suggest reading about the differences between hypotheses, theories, and laws in the scientific method.

 

The laws of thermodynamics are objectively observable facts. That’s why they’re laws. 
 

I could have worded it better previously, doesn’t really change anything though. Unless there’s some drastic change in the fabric of our observable reality, the laws of thermodynamics aren’t going to magically change any time soon.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2349359-why-the-laws-of-physics-dont-actually-exist/

Quote

What we call laws of physics are often just mathematical descriptions of some part of nature. Ultimate physical laws probably don't exist and physics is all the better for it, says theoretical physicist Sankar Das Sarma

https://www.quantamagazine.org/there-are-no-laws-of-physics-theres-only-the-landscape-20180604

Quote

Scientists seek a single description of reality. But modern physics allows for many different descriptions, many equivalent to one another, connected through a vast landscape of mathematical possibility.

...

In string theory, certain features of physics that we usually would consider laws of nature — such as specific particles and forces — are in fact solutions. They are determined by the shape and size of hidden extra dimensions. The space of all of these solutions is often referred to as “the landscape,” but that is a wild understatement. Even the most awe-inspiring mountain vistas pale in comparison with the immensity of this space. Although its geography is only marginally understood, we know it has continents of huge dimensions. One of the most tantalizing features is that possibly everything is connected — that is, every two models are connected by an unbroken path. By shaking the universe hard enough, we would be able to move from one possible world to another, changing what we consider the immutable laws of nature and the special combination of elementary particles that make up reality.

Anyway, that's just a tangent to using "laws of physics" as an answer.

 

The laws of physics, apply locally, only to us. Who is to say that physics works the same outside the solar system, or even on the other side of the galaxy. We only believe that the laws of physics work because that's what we can observe and are capable of observing.  

 

Maybe there is a situation where the laws of physics break down, but we do not yet know of one, or even if one is stable enough to test. But there will always been people who object to trying to find out. 

 

Anyway if nobody tries, then we stop discovering new things.