Nvidia is lying to you

[DarkSwordsman]

Just a nitpick: 9:24 photo and video editing could have been separate graphs. This is very confusing to look at.

[Bitter]

5 hours ago, Vishera said:

I started building PCs at a time when flagship GPUs were $500 max.

The HD 5870, GTX 480, HD 6970, GTX 580 all of those flagship GPUs were at a MSRP of $500 or less.

 

Every year NVIDIA and AMD kept increasing the MSRP of their lineups.

 

AMD:

HD 5870 - $399

HD 6970 - $369

HD 7970 - $549

R9 290X - $549

R9 Fury X - $649

RADEON VII - $699

RX 6900 XT - $999

RX 6950 XT - $1099

RX 7900 XTX -  $999

 

NVIDIA:

GTX 285 - $359

GTX 480 - $499

GTX 580 - $499

GTX 680 - $499

GTX 780 - $649

GTX 780 Ti - $699

GTX 980 - $549

GTX 980 Ti - $649

GTX 1080 - $599

GTX 1080 Ti - $699

TITAN V - $2,999

RTX 2080 Ti - $999

TITAN RTX - $2,499

RTX 3090 - $1,499

RTX 3090 Ti - $1,999

RTX 4090 - $1,599

Even adjusting for inflation, the GTX 285 2009 launch price now would be about $500. This really is pretty crazy.

https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/

 

Also, @LinusTech your face OK man? You look a little banged up there.

[Zodiark1593]

6 hours ago, Vishera said:

 

NVIDIA's current strategy is not sustainable, not for consumers, nor for AIBs - If they continue like that it will blow up in their face.

Products staying on shelves, partners quitting, shrinking of the market, loss of revenue and more...

 

And AMD following in NVIDIA's footsteps will inherit some if not all of those things.

As you said yourself, AMD is following in Nvidia's footsteps. Given the lack of other viable competition (at this time), how is this not sustainable, when your only choices do the same thing?

[Middcore]

2 minutes ago, Zodiark1593 said:

As you said yourself, AMD is following in Nvidia's footsteps. Given the lack of other viable competition (at this time), how is this not sustainable, when your only choices do the same thing?

 

At a certain point, one has to think people will just stop buying as they get priced out of the hobby.

 

Of course, we have the people who bought from scalpers at 2-3x MSRP to thank for this state of affairs, in part. Once the GPU manufacturers saw how much people were willing to pay from a scalper, of course they were going to try to cut out the middle man. 

[LinusTech]

34 minutes ago, Middcore said:

 

At a certain point, one has to think people will just stop buying as they get priced out of the hobby.

 

Of course, we have the people who bought from scalpers at 2-3x MSRP to thank for this state of affairs, in part. Once the GPU manufacturers saw how much people were willing to pay from a scalper, of course they were going to try to cut out the middle man. 

They won't. Gaming is STILL among the best bang for the buck forms of entertainment on the planet. 

 

Playing badminton costs $25/hr for court rental plus on average another 25 bucks an hour of shuttles. Even split 4 ways that's really expensive and it's nothing compared to many hobbies... 

 

Gaming on the other hand is pay once (or never with F2P) and enjoy forever. 

 

The ceiling may be higher yet... 

[Frank41]

I thought people brought GPUs from scalpers because they thought they would get it back in crypto mining and when it died the price would calm down as well,  but Nvidia and AMD seems to be trying to keep price the same.. 

[Bitter]

5 minutes ago, LinusTech said:

They won't. Gaming is STILL among the best bang for the buck forms of entertainment on the planet. 

 

Playing badminton costs $25/hr for court rental plus on average another 25 bucks an hour of shuttles. Even split 4 ways that's really expensive and it's nothing compared to many hobbies... 

 

Gaming on the other hand is pay once (or never with F2P) and enjoy forever. 

 

The ceiling may be higher yet... 

With everything moving to subscriptions, pay to win, microtransactions, and other buzzwords pay once may become a thing of the past, heck they could even start doing with PC hardware what they're trying to do with cars. You want your GPU to hit the FULL boost clocks? Pay Nvidia $5 a month to unlock that feature and they'll justify it somehow by saying that it's not for unlocking what you bought but it's actually a $5 monthly warranty enhancement because the extra TDP is harder on the hardware and this fee ensures you get priority warranty service...or something. Intel did the pay us once then pay us again CPU unlock thing before. Nvidia or AMD or Intel could paywall more cache on a subscription or even software lock features like zero RPM fan, RGB sync, high refresh rate output, etc behind monthly paywalls and you know what, some people would just fork it over and they'd get away with it. And of course sidestepping any of that or unlocking anything would be piracy and illegal I'm sure. At least they're not making us watch ads before, during, and after games....yet.

[LloydLynx]

45 minutes ago, Middcore said:

At a certain point, one has to think people will just stop buying as they get priced out of the hobby.

Minimum and average wages will increase, prices of goods and services will increase. It's inflation and we happen to be in a rough market right now. 

 

The USD is worth a 10th was it was in the 70s. $10 then would be $100 now, roughly translated. The prices of everything had to go up at somepoint, or many points in time. It sucks during times like now but governments insist on stimulating the economy to try to avoid another Great Depression. 

[Middcore]

5 minutes ago, LinusTech said:

They won't. Gaming is STILL among the best bang for the buck forms of entertainment on the planet. 

 

Playing badminton costs $25/hr for court rental plus on average another 25 bucks an hour of shuttles. Even split 4 ways that's really expensive and it's nothing compared to many hobbies... 

 

Gaming on the other hand is pay once (or never with F2P) and enjoy forever. 

 

The ceiling may be higher yet... 

 

Well if PC gaming is still such a great deal, then what are you complaining about the pricing of this card for?

 

Why do you even bother? Nvidia couldn't care less about the feeble criticism in your "reviews" as long as you continue to provide them with lucrative free advertising.

 

But hey, if we ever do find that "ceiling" and your company goes belly-up because PC gaming has priced itself into irrelevance, you can always retire and play badminton the rest of your life. 

[Middcore]

1 minute ago, LloydLynx said:

Minimum and average wages will increase, prices of goods and services will increase. It's inflation and we happen to be in a rough market right now. 

 

The price increases of GPU's have far exceeded the rate of inflation, even the spike in inflation over the past year or two, and real wages in terms of purchasing power peaked in the 1970's. 

[Quackers101]

gaming can be very expensive, but it doesnt have to be.

Some gaming trends do be expensive though, but also depends on your gaming habits too, location etc.

Doesn't help that the bar is getting raised (raytracing, nanite/micromesh, directstorage, AI workloads, etc), with the lower end GPUs going 2x up in price nearly every generation or flaws to reduce overall generational performance, while that is not fully true, that is what they want you to believe is the worth for current gen, if not one are going console. But I guess consoles can have the same pricing issue or part issue, as seen with how people wanted PS5 and was hard to get, the demand for higher-end chips.

[YellowJersey]

It's this kind of corporate crap that leads me to intentionally be a generation behind. Got a Ryzen 5000 series CPU and an RX 6000 card for a bargain right when the new stuff was coming out.

[Rex Hite]

Is it useful to cite 'inflation' when comparing GPU prices and value?

If  annualised inflation rates don't apply then the conclusions about value, relative cost etc are not meaningful. But that's an 'if'.

 

Maybe the price of high end gaming GPUs should be considered as luxury goods with their 'value' considered from that perspective rather than from historical costs.

I think some of the consternation about the value of these recent products results from over-estimating the importance of previous prices for similarly branded products.

It seems to me that the branding of such product lines has taken precedence over the thing as it stands alone and performs its intended tasks.

 

A high end 'luxury' GPU has no intrinsic value beyond the expectation of the consumer. For the gamer its sole purpose is to consume energy and time. For the miner it was to generate some net monetary income, and to the creator is to shorten the time it takes to complete a task.

There may be a far too wide disconnect between two different expectations of value; the value to the gamer and the value to the shareholder. The value to the miner and the creator can be put in monetary terms but the value to the gamer much less so. Which makes talk of sku-stacks, product lines, historical prices etc all a bit pointless.

 

 

 

 

[LinusTech]

1 hour ago, Middcore said:

 

Well if PC gaming is still such a great deal, then what are you complaining about the pricing of this card for?

 

Why do you even bother? Nvidia couldn't care less about the feeble criticism in your "reviews" as long as you continue to provide them with lucrative free advertising.

 

But hey, if we ever do find that "ceiling" and your company goes belly-up because PC gaming has priced itself into irrelevance, you can always retire and play badminton the rest of your life. 

Lol

[Vishera]

6 hours ago, Middcore said:

At a certain point, one has to think people will just stop buying as they get priced out of the hobby.

Or people will buy GPUs less frequently.

6 hours ago, LinusTech said:

They won't. Gaming is STILL among the best bang for the buck forms of entertainment on the planet. 

Gaming and PC building are two different hobbies.

There is overlap but with the current prices of GPUs the Playstation 5 and XBOX Series X look very tempting for gaming.

 

6 hours ago, Zodiark1593 said:

As you said yourself, AMD is following in Nvidia's footsteps. Given the lack of other viable competition (at this time), how is this not sustainable, when your only choices do the same thing?

At the current state of the market and economy - A lot of people don't have money to buy GPUs at such prices.

So if you are used to buying (based on your income) 50 class cards at $150, 60 class cards for $200, 70 class cards for $400-$500, and flagship cards at $700 so a lot of people can't afford an upgrade at this market.

 

If for example you have a GTX 1060, GTX 1660 or a RTX 2070 - What viable options do you have for an upgrade? - None, absolutely nothing - Everything on the market is pretty much overpriced side-grades.

 

If those are the options that consumers have - The consumer will prefer to not buy anything or wait until there is something that is worth upgrading to.

That is not sustainable, This will result in people buying GPUs less frequently or ditching PC gaming for consoles.

 

Looking at the 2022 figures it does seem the case, GPU sales dropped significantly and the market is shrinking,

In NVIDIA's mind increasing prices for those who still buy GPUs at this market will compensate for dropped revenue.

But in reality that in itself is causing GPU sales to drop and the market to shrink even more.

NVIDIA seems to forget how capitalist markets work, Capitalist markets always adjust themselves in accordance to the fair value of the product, and what goes up or down will eventually normalize to it's fair value.

 

If the fair value is $0 - It will normalize to $0, if the fair value is $100 - It will normalize to $100.

 

A great example for that is NFTs - The market value of the product was artificially set, give it enough time and it will normalize to it's fair value - And that's how the market value of NFTs crashed.

 

While NVIDIA and AMD have a lot of control over the GPU market, if they scare away customers from buying their products with aggressive pricing they will loose money.

 

I expect NVIDIA's revenue in 2023 to drop from 2022 if they continue to go through with their plans.

[Shaggy0]

LTT, don't blame NVIDIA for our own stupidity.

 

They are using the consumers stupidity to their advantage and everyone swallows it like their favorite actress does in the dark hours.

 

For (simplified) example, u play a game at 100FPS, u buy the latest generation GFX, CPU or RAM upgrade because it is 10% faster/better. That results in 10FPS gain. Even when upgrading across the board, 30% more FPS, that would only result in 130 FPS compared to a 100. Yet u spend $1000+ for that.

 

There is such a small amount of players that will actually improve in a game when going from 100 to 130 FPS. Even if you do, there is an even smaller amount of players that actually need that improvement. In many games it don't matter at all if u get 100 or 260FPS. But most people don't seem to realize this. They are so stuck on their FPS counter, no matter what it does to their wallet.

 

It does not stop with computer parts, keyboards (Full,TKL,Compact), switches (rainbow), DPI range, polling rates and so on. None of it matters in reality for 99% of the consumer base when talking about getting better or having a playable/enjoyable/better game or work experience. But they make themself believe it does.

 

Maybe buying a certain water bottle because you see some strange guy promote it on YouTube when you only ever drink canned soda?

 

Maybe buying a clicky switch with minimal travel time so you can type your e-mails faster (with 3 fingers).

 

NVIDIA is just smart and trades as much of the customers money for products that have (in most cases) no added value compared to their current hardware. But they make the customer believe it does make a difference. The customer allows it themself. NVIDIA just uses that blindness to their own advantage/gain. It is smart business.

I know some of the people here are thinking: But we/they are PC enthusiasts

That is great and all but in reality many are more like PC fanatics these days. That just need that highest number in their FPS counter compared to their friends. Or they need to be in that top 10% of benchmark results. And for what do they in reality upgrade for? Steam Most Played.

 

Yes. Fanatics.

 

 

[Vishera]

12 minutes ago, Shaggy0 said:

For (simplified) example, u play a game at 100FPS, u buy the latest generation GFX, CPU or RAM upgrade because it is 10% faster/better. That results in 10FPS gain. Even when upgrading across the board, 30% more FPS, that would only result in 130 FPS compared to a 100. Yet u spend $1000+ for that.

Hold your horses cowboy,

The most popular GPU is the GTX 1650 according to Steam,

I am pretty sure that GTX 1650 users don't have the luxury of running new games in 100 FPS, let alone 60 FPS on high settings at 1080p.

 

That narrative you built around this flawed generalization just doesn't hold water,

To be honest the 130 FPS example is very bad one since the reason that one may want or need to upgrade their GPU greatly vary from person to person.

Anyway even if a person wants 144 FPS for their 144Hz monitor - that doesn't mean they are stupid.

[Shaggy0]

29 minutes ago, Vishera said:

Hold your horses cowboy,

The most popular GPU is the GTX 1650 according to Steam,

I am pretty sure that GTX 1650 users don't have the luxury of running new games in 100 FPS, let alone 60 FPS on high settings at 1080p.

The generalizations is build upon the movie, the people willing to pay top dollar for the 4000 generation GFX. How NVIDIA is asking to much money and that it makes them a bad company.

It might be my own stupidity, but i don't count people with a multimedia card as the potential consumers for NVIDIA to sell a 4070ti or 4090 to.

[Sir Beregond]

AMD and Nvidia should be investigated again for price fixing to maintain high margins in an environment where supply/demand realities should dictate lower prices.

 

Anyway, to confirm what a lot of the tech-tuber world has been saying about the real price of 4070 Ti's, here's my local Micro Center with a grand total of two MSRP models and the rest:

 

• PNY XLR8 Gaming Verto: $799.99
• Zotac Trinity: $799.99
• PNY XLR8 Gaming Verto OC: $829.99
• ASUS TUF OC: $849.99
• Gigabyte Eagle OC: $849.99
• MSI Ventus 3X OC: $869.99
• Gigabyte Gaming OC: $899.99
• MSI Gaming Trio: $914.99
• ASUS ROG Strix: $949.99
• MSI Suprim X OC: $974.99
• Zotac AMP Extreme AIRO OC: $999.99
• ASUS ROG Strix OC: $1049.99

[Middcore]

35 minutes ago, Sir Beregond said:

AMD and Nvidia should be investigated again for price fixing to maintain high margins in an environment where supply/demand realities should dictate lower prices.

But they don't dictate lower prices. At least they haven't yet.

 

If people didn't want to pay these prices from AMD and Nvidia, they shouldn't have paid those prices to scalpers. We had like 18 months of threads on this forum about how there should be laws against scalping and etc. and I kept saying the only way to stop the scalpers was not to buy from them. But people kept buying from them and AMD and Nvidia took notice.

 

If the cards sell, then the demand is there. If we pay these prices the next generation will cost more. 

 

But hey it will still be cheaper than badminton or whatever.

 

 

 

[Sir Beregond]

11 minutes ago, Middcore said:

But they don't dictate lower prices. At least they haven't yet.

 

If people didn't want to pay these prices from AMD and Nvidia, they shouldn't have paid those prices to scalpers. We had like 18 months of threads on this forum about how there should be laws against scalping and etc. and I kept saying the only way to stop the scalpers was not to buy from them. But people kept buying from them and AMD and Nvidia took notice.

 

If the cards sell, then the demand is there. If we pay these prices the next generation will cost more. 

 

But they it will still be cheaper than badminton or whatever.

 

 

 

Yes that is what happened and why Nvidia and AMD thought they could get away with it.

 

With 4080's, 7900 XT's, and presumably 4070 Ti's going to be sitting, market realities have to take over at some point in the future. If they don't then yeah, I say price fixing nonsense going on and they are both in cahoots.

 

At a certain point though, they have to move product.

[Vishera]

2 hours ago, Shaggy0 said:

The generalizations is build upon the movie, the people willing to pay top dollar for the 4000 generation GFX. How NVIDIA is asking to much money and that it makes them a bad company.

Only whales with deep pockets buy the 4090, as for the 4080 it's sitting on store shelves and no one buys them.

2 hours ago, Shaggy0 said:

It might be my own stupidity, but i don't count people with a multimedia card as the potential consumers for NVIDIA to sell a 4070ti or 4090 to.

Multimedia card?!, That's the most popular card on Steam for playing video games.

All of those people buy at the $200 price because that's what they can afford.

[Bitter]

I'm worried these prices are going to trickle down to the 2nd hand market, it's just sort of getting back to normal. I rarely buy new unless it's a sale or SSD storage.

[Zodiark1593]

54 minutes ago, Sir Beregond said:

 

 

With 4080's, 7900 XT's, and presumably 4070 Ti's going to be sitting, market realities have to take over at some point in the future.

Perhaps reality doesn’t exactly conform to what we want?

 

As games grow ever more demanding, particularly in regards to ray tracing, the cards will move at some point. If devs are heavily pushing ray tracing in future titles, Nvidia would have no motive to alter course. They just need to be patient, as gamers eventually reluctantly shell out. 

[Vishera]

57 minutes ago, Zodiark1593 said:

As games grow ever more demanding, particularly in regards to ray tracing, the cards will move at some point. If devs are heavily pushing ray tracing in future titles, Nvidia would have no motive to alter course. They just need to be patient, as gamers eventually reluctantly shell out. 

Most PC gamers don't use ray tracing anyway.