It’s time for some hard truth - Aqvox SE "Audiophile" Network Switch

[Senzelian]

38 minutes ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

Ok, then outline to me how exactly you are to validate the claims of this particular switch.

• Compare the output tracks with Audacity.
• Use Google and learn how sound is transmitted over a network.
• Just think...

 

38 minutes ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

See, it's really easy to just assume that you can easily validate and verify these claims as a layperson.

No I don't see that. No one has to stay a layperson in this day and age.

 

38 minutes ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

stop fucking diverting the blame from dishonest scumbags out to fleece people.

I had already edited the post, because I knew someone would say that. It's ridiculous that you claim that, as if just because one thing is true, the other thing has to be untrue. But I'm sure that instead of diverting the blame onto the customer, blaming the seller really helps everyone. Do you also go around to people that got scamed and tell them: "Hey, you bought a terrible product, but no worries. The seller sucks! Next time just do it again."

 

Maybe we should also blame the politicians instead of the people that vote for them, so the people know that they are not responsible.

It's like George Carlin said: The public sucks.

 

38 minutes ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

Also, funnily enough, diamonds aren't particularly rare. You'd know that if you had validated that thought before writing it down.

Yeah, funnily enough that's exactly why I chose diamonds. Really funny... 

[Ubersonic]

The reviews are probably legit, sadly audiophiles have become legendary for defending their placebos, try pointing out to one of them that it's scientifically impossible for a vinyl record to sound as good as the digital master it was created from and they will still claim it sounds even better >.>

[Avocado Diaboli]

3 minutes ago, Senzelian said:

• Compare the output tracks with Audacity.
• Use Google and learn how sound is transmitted over a network.
• Just think...

You neatly forget the placebo effect that causes people who bought something to inherently believe that their upgrade did something. Remember, these are idiot audiophiles who already believe that their ears are the peak of creation. Otherwise we wouldn't be in the situation where snake oil like this could sell. A believer will never voluntarily seek for reasons to doubt their faith. As a result, those people would not be inclined to double check if what they bought actually improved anything. After all, if it works or seems to work, why would you have the need to double check?

 

5 minutes ago, Senzelian said:

I had already edited the post, because I knew someone would say that. It's ridiculous that you claim that, as if just because one thing is true, the other thing has to be untrue.

I never did. But in my book, the person deceiving another is more to blame than the one being deceived, every single time. I don't have to illustrate this point by mentioning other instances of victim blaming to hammer the point home, right?

 

6 minutes ago, Senzelian said:

Yeah, funnily enough that's exactly why I chose diamonds. Really funny... 

Yep, because complaining about the lack of common sense these days totally maps onto something that isn't rare at all. Think about the sentence you wrote again, you'll notice that if you take into account the abundance of diamonds and you comparing said abundance to common sense, you made the statement that common sense is abundant, which the rest of your post does not reflect. So yeah, no two ways around that.

[Ubersonic]

1 hour ago, MariiaN said:

Because you know, eating up bandwidth or constantly loosing and resending  packets on-the-fly - is a precursor to pretty bad 'audio experience'

No it isn't.

 

It's not AM/FM Radio, if a packet gets lost and has to be resent it makes zero difference because the players aren't instantly playing the music as they receive it.  Streaming doesn't mean it's played as it arrives, it means it starts playing before its all arrived and the rest loads as it's going along.  Even when streaming something happening live there's an X second delay.

[Senzelian]

16 minutes ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

You neatly forget the placebo effect that causes people who bought something to inherently believe that their upgrade did something. Remember, these are idiot audiophiles who already believe that their ears are the peak of creation. Otherwise we wouldn't be in the situation where snake oil like this could sell. A believer will never voluntarily seek for reasons to doubt their faith. As a result, those people would not be inclined to double check if what they bought actually improved anything. After all, if it works or seems to work, why would you have the need to double check?

You're saying this as if its a medical condition. What the hell? But if this is your excuse, then you do indeed agree with me. It's their fault.

 

16 minutes ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

I never did. But in my book, the person deceiving another is more to blame than the one being deceived, every single time. I don't have to illustrate this point by mentioning other instances of victim blaming to hammer the point home, right?

Who cares who is "more" to blame? How does that make any difference? Get the guy that sells the product behind bars and educate the public! That's the only viable option. Arguing about details like these don't matter and won't get us anywhere. Self-awareness is key.

 

16 minutes ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

Yep, because complaining about the lack of common sense these days totally maps onto something that isn't rare at all. Think about the sentence you wrote again, you'll notice that if you take into account the abundance of diamonds and you comparing said abundance to common sense, you made the statement that common sense is abundant, which the rest of your post does not reflect. So yeah, no two ways around that.

I was thinking about chosing platinum instead, but specifically chose diamonds. Realistically a large majority of people obviously have common sense. It often comes down to people not using it when its needed out of lazyness. Diamonds aren't necessarily that rare, but not common within the community. Not common = bad enough, considering we're talking about common sense. I probably also could've used gold, would've been maybe even better.

[darknessblade]

Seems like they can soon receive a Cease and desist from D-link. not forgetting being permanently blacklisted from buying ANY D-link products

[Nystemy]

36 minutes ago, Senzelian said:

If the customer is not making an informed decision, then they are definitely to blame. Judging a product by its reviews and its description on a webpage is only part of buying a product. If you don't validate the products claims after you've purchased it, then you've got no one to blame but yourself. There is a 14-day return window for this exact reason. You also don't need to be a network engineer to understand a product like this, in the same way you don't need to be a race car driver to validate that a car is actually as fast as the manufacturer claims.

 

No, I'm not saying the seller is not to blame. Of course they have to make accurate claims, but saying that doesn't help anyone.

 

Common sense is just as rare as diamonds these days...

I myself do happen to have a fair slew of electronics test equipment at hand for my own hobbies. I could make some checks to see if a manufacture's claims are valid or not depending on the product. But I can't check everything, unless I expand my collection of test equipment even further. And yes, I do check claims when I can. _{(though, most of the time I spend on repairing dead electronics back to life.)}

 

However, Joe average doesn't have anything remotely close to what I have. Because it wouldn't make sense unless one has it as a more invested hobby or profession.

 

A regular consumer won't have the means nor experience to even understand what is and isn't important.

Secondly, audiophiles tends to use a fair slew of terms that have no basis outside of gut feeling. And a consumer has often no experience to be able to tell these terms apart. Nor any real experience to know if they are true or even reasonable.

 

Even the color accuracy of a monitor is something that manufacturers could "claim" is better than it actually is. The difference is that VESA, Adobe and other standards authorities who's color profile the manufacturer claims to be good at will quickly take the manufacturer to court over the misguided marketing abusing their standards. But few such standards exists for audio. _{(And the few that do exist rarely find themselves applicable to these types of audiophile products. Dolby isn't going to be interested in making a certification for audio grade wall outlets anytime soon, nor network switches for that matter. And also, I am not saying that "visualphiles" aren't a thing, there is a fair amount of snake oil in that field as well.)}

 

And making the claim that "If the customer is not making an informed decision, then they are definitely to blame." on a forum thread for a review of a frankly overpromising switch isn't helping in giving consumers the needed guidance to make said informed decisions. _{(And this opinion that "it is the consumers fault" is fairly common whenever audiophile and audio-fool products are discussed/questioned in general, regardless of who and where these discussions/questions take place. So thanks for perpetuating this desire to hush down the discussion.)}

[HenrySalayne]

1 hour ago, Senzelian said:

If the customer is not making an informed decision, then they are definitely to blame. Judging a product by its reviews and its description on a webpage is only part of buying a product. If you don't validate the products claims after you've purchased it, then you've got no one to blame but yourself. There is a 14-day return window for this exact reason. You also don't need to be a network engineer to understand a product like this, in the same way you don't need to be a race car driver to validate that a car is actually as fast as the manufacturer claims.

It might come as a surprise to you, but most people don't buy a product out of scepticism. Remember the HDMI- and DP-cable testing LTT did? Everybody has a product at home not performing to specification or doing what was claimed in advertising. Do you know your USB-C-cable doesn't support 100W PD if you only use it to charge your phone?

[Ravendarat]

58 minutes ago, Ubersonic said:

The reviews are probably legit, sadly audiophiles have become legendary for defending their placebos, try pointing out to one of them that it's scientifically impossible for a vinyl record to sound as good as the digital master it was created from and they will still claim it sounds even better >.>

Dont forget that "sound as good" is subjective. Some people seem to prefer the sound of vinyl to a digital master, and while its not as you put it scientifically possible for that to be a thing, if it sounds better TO THEM and they make the statement than its not untrue. In the same way if I look at two pieces of abstract art, one painted by a 4 year old with a super soaker full of paint and one painted by a renowned artist and I think that the 4 year old did a better job than that painting looks better TO ME. Experts might/would disagree but it doesnt make my statement untrue. It just means that you probably shouldnt put much value in my tastes of new age art lol.

[demonix00]

2 hours ago, MariiaN said:

With all due respect, if this switch has
DIFFERENT SOFTWARE - this is more than enough reason to claim that it Can 'improve audio experience'.
So until proven that this switch has not changed   software/firmware - LTT should have given 'em at least benefit of a doubt.

Because you know, eating up bandwidth or constantly loosing and resending  packets on-the-fly - is a precursor to pretty bad 'audio experience'

In case of most modern networking use cases, including audio streaming - software is everything...

The issue is that the switch they used is UNMANAGED meaning that there wouldn't be any software or firmware on it since all the original hardware does is manage traffic going through it and that chip has obviously not been touched so this is 1000% snakeoil just like those devices that are supposed to improve the audio quality of CDs.

 

 

 

 

[Senzelian]

41 minutes ago, Nystemy said:

I myself do happen to have a fair slew of electronics test equipment at hand for my own hobbies. I could make some checks to see if a manufacture's claims are valid or not depending on the product. But I can't check everything, unless I expand my collection of test equipment even further. And yes, I do check claims when I can. _{(though, most of the time I spend on repairing dead electronics back to life.)}

 

However, Joe average doesn't have anything remotely close to what I have. Because it wouldn't make sense unless one has it as a more invested hobby or profession.

 

A regular consumer won't have the means nor experience to even understand what is and isn't important.

Secondly, audiophiles tends to use a fair slew of terms that have no basis outside of gut feeling. And a consumer has often no experience to be able to tell these terms apart. Nor any real experience to know if they are true or even reasonable.

 

Even the color accuracy of a monitor is something that manufacturers could "claim" is better than it actually is. The difference is that VESA, Adobe and other standards authorities who's color profile the manufacturer claims to be good at will quickly take the manufacturer to court over the misguided marketing abusing their standards. But few such standards exists for audio. _{(And the few that do exist rarely find themselves applicable to these types of audiophile products. Dolby isn't going to be interested in making a certification for audio grade wall outlets anytime soon, nor network switches for that matter. And also, I am not saying that "visualphiles" aren't a thing, there is a fair amount of snake oil in that field as well.)}

 

And making the claim that "If the customer is not making an informed decision, then they are definitely to blame." on a forum thread for a review of a frankly overpromising switch isn't helping in giving consumers the needed guidance to make said informed decisions. _{(And this opinion that "it is the consumers fault" is fairly common whenever audiophile and audio-fool products are discussed/questioned in general, regardless of who and where these discussions/questions take place. So thanks for perpetuating this desire to hush down the discussion.)}

You're overcomplicating things. With the purchase of a product the consumer always has certain expecations. To validate someones expectations you do not need test equipment. And in the few cases you do, you can rely on independent reviews from professionals - multiple ones of course, not just one!

 

I'm not a professional photographer and yet I'm able to buy a camera and make an informed decision before I buy one. Anyone can do that!

And the moment that certain factors become so important to you that you rely on them for your work, you become a professional and know how to make sure that the product fulfills it claims.

 

30 minutes ago, HenrySalayne said:

It might come as a surprise to you, but most people don't buy a product out of scepticism. Remember the HDMI- and DP-cable testing LTT did? Everybody has a product at home not performing to specification or doing what was claimed in advertising. Do you know your USB-C-cable doesn't support 100W PD if you only use it to charge your phone?

I don't buy all my products out of scepticism either. But the moment you want and need something to work, you should always use your brain for a second. Let's stick with the USB C cable for example:

 

I bought two relatively cheap USB C to C cables from Amazon a year ago or so. I bought these specifically to charge my phone and for basic data transfer. When I got them, I tried charging my phone and transfer data over them. Boom, validated, that's good enough for me. This is what I mean with common sense.

 

Now, I've also bought two relatively expensive USB C to C cables from Anker, specifically for charging high power devices and also for high bandwith data transfer. I don't have special equipment either, but because I bought these cables specifically for a purpose, I of course had devices that make use of its features. So I plugged in an SSD and tried to transfer some data and simply checked speeds and I plugged in a laptop to a charger using this cable and simply checked whether the estimated charge time made sense and is roughly the same as with the original USB charger. Again, this is what I mean with common sense. 

 

I don't expect anyone to go out of their way and buy a cable tester for a 15€ Anker USB C cable, but I expect people to use their brain and think for a moment. Just stop and think is all I want people to do.

 

And I get it, you can't always make an educated purchase, but for a product that is as expensive as this switch, you should make one. It's like you walk blindly over the street and expect every single car to stop for you. Pointing fingers at the driver after you've been hit won't safe your butt. 

 

 

30 minutes ago, HenrySalayne said:

It might come as a surprise to you, but most people don't buy a product out of scepticism.

I just had to quote this again, cause honestly I think in Germany that's what we all do here. Once you've worked retail here, you'll know that Germans are very cautious buyers.

[AndreiArgeanu]

4 hours ago, gerhardw said:

While there's plenty of snake oil around, network devices can make a difference and you didn't test those use cases. These things are mainly intended for use with streamers and DACs with ethernet inputs. In those cases, noise from the ethernet input can easily affect the analog audio circuitry. This is very well known with USB and most DACs perform measurably different if they're connected with USB vs SPDIF because of the noise from the USB connection. If you analyze the output of some streamers with and Audio Precision you will most likely find that performance can be affected based on what ethernet device it's fed from. Whether or not those differences are audible is another matter but they are there. 

 

Please improve the quality of your audio related testing process. I wish I had applied for that job when it was posted... I'm sure you'll make some great content with the little anechoic chamber you're building and whatnot but I'm worried you'll make similar content "debunking" things after not testing thoroughly enough. 

You made an account 1 hour after the video has released just to comment this. You very much look like another snake oil seller trying to defend the sale of snake oil.

[Needfuldoer]

Never underestimate the power of magical thinking.

 

I bet if you put the unmodified D-Link board into the case with the sticker on it, conspicuously place it near the PC, and pass it off as the "modified" one, someone who genuinely believes this crap will swear up down and sideways that it's doing special magic to make the 1s and 0s sound better.

 

I'm interested to see what they did to the board. Maybe they replaced power filtering caps with new, higher capacity, low ESR ones they blessed in a ritual involving those stickers and the adhesive crystal.

 

EDIT: I know a trick for removing two part epoxy: heat and isopropyl alcohol.

(This channel's got some great electronics repair videos.)

[Luscious]

I've been an audiophile for 40 years. Would I buy into this crap??? HELL NO!!!

 

My solution for improving the analog sound on my PC was simple. I was having all kinds of trouble connecting the headers on my mobo properly for both the headphone jacks and mic input - noise, interference, static etc... My solution was to forget all of that and use the SPDIF output on the back of the mobo. I have a high quality optical cable going to an external TEAC UD-503 desktop DAC that sits right in front of me under my monitor. The placement is super convenient as I have a large volume dial to adjust volume and a pair of 6.3mm headphone jacks for my cans. That last part also important for my particular scenario as my Sony XB700 cans don't have very long cables on them in the first place. The setup works incredibly well and allows me to use my headphones easily without any sound issues.

 

For mic use I went USB and use the built in mic of my Logitech webcam. Good enough for Skype calls, World of Warships, etc...

 

The grand slam though with the TEAC UD-503 is the XLR speaker connections you get in back. Far better quality sound than with either 3.5mm or RCA cables. You can in fact use the same XLR monitor speakers that you would see in a professional recording studio. If those speakers are good enough for the artists I sure as hell won't be complaining. It's also a very high quality sound - the DAC is doing all the DA conversion directly from an optical source and going straight to XLR. At $800 this thing ain't cheap, but I'm happy with it and it's working perfectly.

 

 

[Jaballadad]

2 hours ago, Senzelian said:

-snip-

 I am split with you on this. On the one hand, yes, I agree with simple or general items. There should not be much trouble to validate oneself. On the other hand, what Nystemy said is also true. In particular, certain technological items become very quickly so complicated and impossible to check 100%. But there might be a problem cause of your last sentence.

2 hours ago, Senzelian said:

I just had to quote this again, cause honestly I think in Germany that's what we all do here. Once you've worked retail here, you'll know that Germans are very cautious

buyers.

First of all, as German myself, that made me smile and I agree with that. But it is also wrong. I will get to that in a moment.

   

We in Germany are in the very lucky position to have one of the best possible consumer protection in the world, through our laws, independent organisations and our media.

Like there's a very generous mandated return window for online purchases, tons of information about products and comparisons on TV (I can not judge the usefulness of these) and many product award seals.

   

But those are not perfect either. I and everyone in my social circle have been lucky so far and have not been screwed over regarding returning stuff or for warranty claims. Maybe you have neither. But you can not claim that this has not happened. Companies and retailers here now and then think they are above the law and try to screw their customers over, no matter what, even our very strict laws are supposed to prevent that. Admittedly, usually I would say that most of the time these are individual cases and not a big ongoing theme.

   

Product award seals which are supposed to assure anyone you are buying a good product, meeting certain standards, have become far too many from too many organisations with partly questionable guidelines. There have been reports in some cases that certain seals also can be bought outright and are therefore basically meaningless.

   

So, even if we are cautious buyers, that might not protect us from scummy sellers.

   

Certainly not our elderly.

   

Or have you never heard of those cheap coach trips with sales shows for seniors (Kaffeefahrt für Senioren) where those con artists sell you grandma or pa a magic magnetic blanket for 1200€ to cure rheumathism?

   

Sure, that's an extreme example, an outright scam. Apparently an illegal one, since those sales shows are already prohibited and fines have been raised this year.

The network switch from the video might not be an outright scam (it still works?) but in my view, many commentators and Linus and the other people from LMG it is snake oil.

   

Anyway, my point is you say the average Joe should be able to make educated purchases for expensive stuff like that switch and I say, even with all the research one does and with all the consumer protection, if available, there might still be stuff beyond your control or scummy/scammy companies trying to cheat you.

   

And I am on the same page as Nystemy. It should not be like that. I would like not to have to study whatever, everytime I want to buy another new electrical thingie, just because there's no diligent company anymore and I have to be aware of everything.

   

@LinusTechsaid it in a recent live stream (I think the one rolling the dice and selling the computer for 1$) pretty nicely when he answered a merch message asking him if he would rather live in a world with all the companies doing their due diligence or all the customers being educated and was also more or less in line with the overall sentiment in the thread so far, that it would be better if all the companies would just be honest and good than every customer have to their research everytime which at some point becomes almost impossible. (can not find the exact timestamp right now so take this indirect quotation with a grain of salt)

   

 

 

[Needfuldoer]

11 minutes ago, Luscious said:

My solution was to forget all of that and use the SPDIF output on the back of the mobo. I have a high quality optical cable going to an external TEAC UD-503 desktop DAC that sits right in front of me under my monitor.

I hope that's a gold plated cable, otherwise you're not spending enough money getting the best experience you can.

 

(Seriously why do people fall for this snake oil crap? It just makes finding legitimately good, reasonable gear more difficult.)

[Luscious]

1 minute ago, Needfuldoer said:

I hope that's a gold plated cable, otherwise you're not spending enough money getting the best experience you can.

 

(Seriously why do people fall for this snake oil crap? It just makes finding legitimately good, reasonable gear more difficult.)

 Good joke. Optical. You "see" the gold lol. It's actually a very well braided and shorter length optical cable that I'm using from Monoprice. Close to 7 years in service so far and haven't had any trouble with it. I would buy it again in a heartbeat if I needed a slightly longer one.

[Thomas4]

Everyone forgot what the late great P.T. Barnum once said this immortal phrase,

 

"There's a sucker born every minute."

[Avocado Diaboli]

9 hours ago, Senzelian said:

You're saying this as if its a medical condition. What the hell? But if this is your excuse, then you do indeed agree with me. It's their fault.

I never said audiophiles are completely blameless. Linus may have, and I disagree with that, but your original comment only stated this:

 

10 hours ago, Senzelian said:

If you don't validate the products claims after you've purchased it, then you've got no one to blame but yourself.

You did revise it with this statement:

10 hours ago, Senzelian said:

No, I'm not saying the seller is not to blame. Of course they have to make accurate claims, but saying that doesn't help anyone.

 

First off, given your examples, I could say that everybody who bought one of those switches has validated it. It passes through network traffic and doesn't mangle audio data, ergo it fulfills its purpose. It's validated to the exact strict level you apply to your own purchases. But your original statement still stands in stark contradiction to that disclaimer, that a rube has nobody to blame but themselves. That's the mindset I take issue with. Audiophiles are morons for many reasons. But as much as I love making fun of their stupidity, it's important to never forget that it takes two parties for a scam to happen. And I'm sorry, if you can't see why condemning the perpetrator of a scam is more important than blaming the victim, I can't help you.

[kirashi]

13 hours ago, gerhardw said:

While there's plenty of snake oil around, network devices can make a difference and you didn't test those use cases. These things are mainly intended for use with streamers and DACs with ethernet inputs. In those cases, noise from the ethernet input can easily affect the analog audio circuitry.

Ethernet cables carrying a digital signal either transmit 100% of the signal correctly, or fail to transmit the signal at all. Yes, it's true that packets do get re-sent from time to time, however, as far as the end-user / software applications are concerned, the data either reaches its destination uncorrupted or it doesn't.

13 hours ago, gerhardw said:

This is very well known with USB and most DACs perform measurably different if they're connected with USB vs SPDIF because of the noise from the USB connection. If you analyze the output of some streamers with and Audio Precision you will most likely find that performance can be affected based on what ethernet device it's fed from. Whether or not those differences are audible is another matter but they are there. 

Patiently awaits credible sources to be cited.

 

11 hours ago, MariiaN said:

With all due respect, if this switch has DIFFERENT SOFTWARE - this is more than enough reason to claim that it Can 'improve audio experience'.
So until proven that this switch has not changed   software/firmware - LTT should have given 'em at least benefit of a doubt.

Because you know, eating up bandwidth or constantly loosing and resending  packets on-the-fly - is a precursor to pretty bad 'audio experience'

In case of most modern networking use cases, including audio streaming - software is everything...

The switch is an off-the-shelf DLink product that's been disassembled to throw some resin over the capacitors, stickers in a couple places, and had a fake plastic jewel hot-glued into place. It's not even a model capable of running managed switching software, so as a "dumb" network switch, there's nothing to modify.

[ShortTutors]

I'm curious, if the theory is that somehow, the ethernet cable is introducing some.. electrical gremlins.

Why not just use Wi-fi ?

[Alpha Audio]

Please @LinusTechTips, @LTT. I have don a ton of research on this topic and have acutal proof it isn't all b*llshit. Like some extensive measurments on switches. Yes... some stuff is actually bullshit.. But not all. You can contact me if you want to know more.(I am NOT a brand and don't sell stuff... we are an independend review website).

[HenrySalayne]

4 minutes ago, Alpha Audio said:

Please @LinusTechTips, @LTT. I have don a ton of research on this topic and have acutal proof it isn't all b*llshit. Like some extensive measurments on switches. Yes... some stuff is actually bullshit.. But not all. You can contact me if you want to know more.(I am NOT a brand and don't sell stuff... we are an independend review website).

Why don't you share your measurements and reviews with all of us?

[papajo]

16 hours ago, jakkuh_t said:

 

@LinusTech Great video but I wish you would have the same critical eye when it comes to the PC market as well because this is exactly where we are heading when you see pcbs (resin with thin sheets of metal) with passive components (aka motherboards) selling for 1.1K usd while the most expensive (and still ridiculously overpriced) CPU they can carry costs 800 usd... 

Or when ATX cases (aluminium sheets) can cost upwards of 300 usd or GPUs 1500+ and so on and so forth. 

They are trying to make performance/pc gaming/custom builds a niche market with snake oil mentality exactly like the audiophile market and people like you have the responsibility to atleast hit them left and right with critical journalism to at least try to slow their ridiculous plans down and spread awareness yet I rarely see something like this video here from you when it comes to pc market you just accept things as they are and borderline promote them if not shilling for them... 

[Senzelian]

9 hours ago, Jaballadad said:

But you can not claim that this has not happened.

Exactly!

 

9 hours ago, Jaballadad said:

Anyway, my point is you say the average Joe should be able to make educated purchases for expensive stuff like that switch and I say, even with all the research one does and with all the consumer protection, if available, there might still be stuff beyond your control or scummy/scammy companies trying to cheat you.

Absolutely true. There are exceptions to a rule. 

 

9 hours ago, Jaballadad said:

And I am on the same page as Nystemy. It should not be like that. I would like not to have to study whatever, everytime I want to buy another new electrical thingie, just because there's no diligent company anymore and I have to be aware of everything.

   

@LinusTechsaid it in a recent live stream (I think the one rolling the dice and selling the computer for 1$) pretty nicely when he answered a merch message asking him if he would rather live in a world with all the companies doing their due diligence or all the customers being educated and was also more or less in line with the overall sentiment in the thread so far, that it would be better if all the companies would just be honest and good than every customer have to their research everytime which at some point becomes almost impossible. (can not find the exact timestamp right now so take this indirect quotation with a grain of salt)

Of course it would be fantastic if all people were to simply follow the law and scams were not a thing. But unfortunately that's not the world we live in. Wishful thinking won't change that and self-awareness can go a very long way in mitigating unlawful behavior. Scammers exist because there is a market for scammers to sell their products to. If there wasn't a market, or alternatively it would be very small, scammers wouldn't be able to sell it. Of course that is wishful thinking too, since we will never be able to get there. So as always it comes down to finding a nice middle, where everyone does as best as they can; i.e. lawmakers and law enforcement doing their part and citizens being aware and having their eyes open.

 

 

2 hours ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

It passes through network traffic and doesn't mangle audio data, ergo it fulfills its purpose. It's validated to the exact strict level you apply to your own purchases.

Is that the claim they make on their website?

 

They claim it enhances your audio, or whatever it is, and in LTT's video it is shown how you can easily check and validate those claims. Simply listen to it or even have someone else listen to it. If you buy a product that claims to do X, then you'd make sure it does X, right? It's not rocket science.

 

2 hours ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

But your original statement still stands in stark contradiction to that disclaimer, that a rube has nobody to blame but themselves. That's the mindset I take issue with. Audiophiles are morons for many reasons. But as much as I love making fun of their stupidity, it's important to never forget that it takes two parties for a scam to happen.

Yes of course there is a scammer. Yes of course he is partially to blame. If the scammer wasn't there no one would be scammed. Great, we've established that, but that's not the world we live in.

 

2 hours ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

And I'm sorry, if you can't see why condemning the perpetrator of a scam is more important than blaming the victim, I can't help you.

Even if you could, you wouldn't help me or anyone else. Laws are already in place and oh look, the scammer still exists. But at some point you'll have to come to the realisation that the law is only as good as the citizens that follow and support it. So as a customer you have to open your eyes and think before making a purchase. The law won't always be able to protect you, especially not in countries that have worse consumer protection laws than the one I live in. The last wall of defence is the customer's finger resting on his mouse waiting to click "Checkout".

 

1 hour ago, ShortTutors said:

Why not just use Wi-fi ?

I assume they use switches instead of access points because they're easier to scam people with. Setting up an AP or Wi-Fi router is usually a little more complicated than simply plugging in a few cables. There is also that "solid" feel you get from a cable. It just seems right. Wi-Fi in comparison seems like a inferior standard, as we've all experienced bad Wi-Fi connections at some point or another.