It’s time for some hard truth - Aqvox SE "Audiophile" Network Switch

[jakkuh_t]

 

[h91]

A lot of audiophiles are idiots, and buy anything that claims to improve audio stuff because "i swear i can hear it" nah that's your brain trying to convince you to justify being scammed. From CD shavers to vinyl demagnetisers. Techmoan did a few vids on that crap tbh, except did audio waveform comparison to see if there was a difference between the two. (Recorded two samples, inverted one, merged them to see if there's a difference or if there is just plain silence).

 

There wasn't a difference.

[emosun]

I forgot who did the test but they once had a bunch of audiophiles listen to the difference between vinyl records and mp3 files. when played the audiophiles described exactly which was which and why the vinyl record sounded better.

what they were actually listening to was the same mp3 file played on the same device , nothing changed , they were just full of sh**.

[Avocado Diaboli]

You can try and point out the nonsense until you're blue in the face, an audiophile is like a conspiracy theorist, they'll just move goal posts and tell you "you must have done something wrong". Like, did you use the special sauce audiophile grade ethernet cable? If not, they'll point that out and say your tests are invalid. Did you use the correct audiophile NAS with the correct audiophile drives? If not, hey, what did you expect?

 

As someone with over 20 years of experience as an amateur musician with many musician friends (some professional musicians) I can tell you I have never met a musician who considers themselves an audiophile. It's all bullshit. That's not to say there aren't good or bad quality headphones or speakers out there, there absolutely are. But I'm sorry, you don't have golden ears that can hear minute differences that even the audio engineer at the recording studio didn't hear through his professional gear.

 

The music doesn't also sound alive or like your there, especially not (and I find it hilarious that I have to point this out) through some fucking headphones. You know what's a core component of music? Feeling the air move around you. That's what speakers do and feeling that movement is essential to enjoying music, which is why I would never voluntarily listen to headphones if speakers are a choice. I love nothing more than standing in front of my guitar amp stack, playing a chord and feeling it. You don't get that from the best headphones in the world, which is why this whole audiophile nonsense is so amusing to me. Missing the forest for the trees, or more accurately, missing the music for the gear.

[gerhardw]

While there's plenty of snake oil around, network devices can make a difference and you didn't test those use cases. These things are mainly intended for use with streamers and DACs with ethernet inputs. In those cases, noise from the ethernet input can easily affect the analog audio circuitry. This is very well known with USB and most DACs perform measurably different if they're connected with USB vs SPDIF because of the noise from the USB connection. If you analyze the output of some streamers with and Audio Precision you will most likely find that performance can be affected based on what ethernet device it's fed from. Whether or not those differences are audible is another matter but they are there. 

 

Please improve the quality of your audio related testing process. I wish I had applied for that job when it was posted... I'm sure you'll make some great content with the little anechoic chamber you're building and whatnot but I'm worried you'll make similar content "debunking" things after not testing thoroughly enough. 

[power666]

The sad thing is that there are legitimate audiophile network switches.  They are expensive and specialized as they extend the actual Ethernet specification to support features like real bandwidth reservation in the switch, queuing alterations, time clock and determinism.  These are several suites of standards like 802.1Qav (AVB), 802.1Qbv (TSN), 802.1Qcv (TSN), and IEEE 1588/802.1AS (time clock).  These features are distinctly marked on the switches.  Since the AQ-SWITCH doesn't have any of these features, it is indeed snake oil.

 

Now for some errors in the video.  

 

Absolutely true that as a digitial signal you either get it or not, the CAT cables that connect between the audio device and the switch does carry one other thing: ground.  Benign in the digital world, if the audio end point has analog components (ADC, amplifier etc.) there is the potential for ground hum to go from the switch to the analog end point. (Ground hum like this does not matter for a digital to digital end point as noted in the video.)  This can be avoided by using unshielded CAT cables which don't carry the ground lines used for shielding.  I have actually encountered this in the field with a microphone with the manufacturer's solution simply being don't use shielded cables.

 

Layer 2 connections can be aware of the connection because technologies like AVB/TSN are layer 2 based.  All the streams are broadcast and subscribed on the layer 2 level using the MSRP protocol as part of the greater AVB/TSN spec.  VXLAN is necessary to tunnel this layer 2 traffic over a layer 3 connection that would not normally be bridged and hope that the switch is fast enough to keep traffic within the proper latency bounds for AVB/TSN.

[Dexruus]

I KNOW its snakeoil, but the package is beyond a ripoff.

 

The "Illuminati Sticker" seems alot like this one: https://www.psiram.com/de/index.php/Datei:Hildegard_Orgonakkumulator.jpg

 

This aims to be a device which "defuses barcodes". Theres alot of "Schwurbel" (German word for conspiracy theories) which aims to a nieche

user/buyerbase in which espicially the crystal stuff and the illuminati sticker fits in 100%.

 

BTW; Psiram.org is an wiki for conspiracy theories and their leaders/founders, theres alot of shitty devices to try and debunk

Gotta say, english translation is not much, but its a german project anyways, just DeepL the german one :V

 

[RedWhiteDevil]

35 minutes ago, gerhardw said:

While there's plenty of snake oil around, network devices can make a difference and you didn't test those use cases. These things are mainly intended for use with streamers and DACs with ethernet inputs. In those cases, noise from the ethernet input can easily affect the analog audio circuitry. This is very well known with USB and most DACs perform measurably different if they're connected with USB vs SPDIF because of the noise from the USB connection. If you analyze the output of some streamers with and Audio Precision you will most likely find that performance can be affected based on what ethernet device it's fed from. Whether or not those differences are audible is another matter but they are there. 

 

Please improve the quality of your audio related testing process. I wish I had applied for that job when it was posted... I'm sure you'll make some great content with the little anechoic chamber you're building and whatnot but I'm worried you'll make similar content "debunking" things after not testing thoroughly enough. 

This is an unmanaged 8-port switch, it will do nothing to improve your audio quality. And this 730€ price markup is a pure ripoff.

[coolraiman]

You can actually prove on a technical standpoint that this product use false advertising and is a scam.

With the resources you have, you should contact the authorities about this kind of product, Canada has kind of a good consumer protection system.

Use your power for the greater good

[Just that Mario]

"If you bought one, you are not the problem" - NO! In-fact you ARE the problem. You spent 800+ euros on a POS nonsensical product. There's nobody else to blame but your own stupidity.

[Avocado Diaboli]

3 minutes ago, Just that Mario said:

"If you bought one, you are not the problem" - NO! In-fact you ARE the problem. You spent 800+ euros on a POS nonsensical product. There's nobody else to blame but your own stupidity.

Except, you know, the people selling it to you. Don't pretend the perpetrators are blameless here.

[Just that Mario]

Just now, Avocado Diaboli said:

Except, you know, the people selling it to you. Don't pretend the perpetrators are blameless here.

You cannot blame the person trying to sell you bs. You can only blame yourself for buying that bs. When you start blaming the con-artist, it's a clear sign you are too ignorant to face your own failure. It is actually admirable how people manage to sell absolute nonsense for large sums of money.

[Nystemy]

Always fun to see people talk about ground and Ethernet cables.

As well as "digital noise" on the lines feeding into the DAC.

 

Firstly, Ethernet is transformer coupled, so no electrical connection. There is a bit of parasitic capacitance, a few pF at worst. At 50/60 hz, or audio frequencies in general. This parasitic capacitance is so low that it doesn't really exist.

 

Secondly, a DAC has a digital section already... Especially a network connected DAC _{(USB as well for that matter)}, so there will need to be a degree of internal isolation between the digital and analog sides regardless. _{(something a lot of DACs completely ignore in my own experience fiddling with electronics.)}

 

Ground loops from shielded Ethernet cables is a concern. But a good piece of audio equipment should never connect a external ground to its own internal ground unless strictly needed. For an Ethernet cable, the grounded shield doesn't have to be connected at both ends, for the low bandwidth application known as audio, there isn't really a difference. _{(And if one is paranoid, then get a grounded keystone jack and ground the shield there before using an unshielded path cable the last foot.)}

 

However, I have meet plenty of "audiophiles" over the years that have had concerns about all sorts of stuff. Be it digital signals in the first place, or compression _{(some argue that "lossless" compression isn't a thing.)} or error correction _{(supposedly just makes a guess, as if actual error correction were impossible)}, among other things.

[RedWhiteDevil]

3 minutes ago, Just that Mario said:

You cannot blame the person trying to sell you bs. You can only blame yourself for buying that bs. When you start blaming the con-artist, it's a clear sign you are too ignorant to face your own failure. It is actually admirable how people manage to sell absolute nonsense for large sums of money.

Customers are most of the time NOT experts, they rely on expert opinions to tell them how things work. So yes, most of the blame goes to the scammer and not the scammed.

[Avocado Diaboli]

Just now, Just that Mario said:

You cannot blame the person trying to sell you bs. You can only blame yourself for buying that bs. When you start blaming the con-artist, it's a clear sign you are too ignorant to face your own failure. It is actually admirable how people manage to sell absolute nonsense for large sums of money.

Nonsense, of course you can blame the person trying to dupe you. What I'm reading between the lines of what you write is that you'd be perfectly happy to rip off people by lying to them. Maybe that's not what you're doing, but your words are clearly communicating that you don't see the seller of snake oil to be a problem. What reasonable defense of your position do you have? You only state your opinion as completely axiomatic, not because you've reasoned through your stance. I see this quite often with you in particular, this judgmental attitude that fails to take into consideration all the facets of any given situation. Why is that?

[Nystemy]

Just now, Just that Mario said:

You cannot blame the person trying to sell you bs. You can only blame yourself for buying that bs. When you start blaming the con-artist, it's a clear sign you are too ignorant to face your own failure. It is actually admirable how people manage to sell absolute nonsense for large sums of money.

There is reasons why there exists regulations in regards to false advertising. Consumers can rarely validate the advertisers/manufacturer's claims.

 

So no, a consumer shouldn't purely blame themselves.

A seller isn't allowed to make false claims for what their product can and can not do. Since false claims undermines the consumers ability to make rational decisions.

[HenrySalayne]

For a good laugh pay this store a visit: 

https://www.auditorium.de/detail/b7c05b296508578fa3cab41bc10e3cfa

 

Who wants a 12 m Ethernet cable for 10,900€? And make sure you read the description. It's pure gold and silver! In the literal and figurative sense.

 

Edit:

1 hour ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

Like, did you use the special sauce audiophile grade ethernet cable?

This post is for you!

[RedWhiteDevil]

2 minutes ago, HenrySalayne said:

For a good laugh pay this store a visit: 

https://www.auditorium.de/detail/b7c05b296508578fa3cab41bc10e3cfa

 

Who wants a 12 m Ethernet cable for 10,900€? And make sure you read the description. It's pure gold and silver! In the literal and figurative sense.

This reminds me of the all the cables with "golden plug/connector" (like cinch cables) hype that me and others have failed for.

[MariiaN]

With all due respect, if this switch has
DIFFERENT SOFTWARE - this is more than enough reason to claim that it Can 'improve audio experience'.
So until proven that this switch has not changed   software/firmware - LTT should have given 'em at least benefit of a doubt.

Because you know, eating up bandwidth or constantly loosing and resending  packets on-the-fly - is a precursor to pretty bad 'audio experience'

In case of most modern networking use cases, including audio streaming - software is everything...

[HenrySalayne]

30 minutes ago, Just that Mario said:

You cannot blame the person trying to sell you bs. You can only blame yourself for buying that bs. When you start blaming the con-artist, it's a clear sign you are too ignorant to face your own failure. It is actually admirable how people manage to sell absolute nonsense for large sums of money.

You have manufacturers telling you it's an amazing product. You have reviewers telling you it's an amazing product. You have costumers telling you it's an amazing product. How should they know?

[HenrySalayne]

12 minutes ago, MariiaN said:

So until proven that this switch has not changed   software/firmware - LTT should have given 'em at least benefit of a doubt.

Benefit of the doubt? Absolutely not!

Audio quality is not a religion. The manufacturer could easily proof by measurements that their switch actually improves audio quality.

 

I give you a hint why those measurements are non-existent:

Spoiler

 

[Thaldor]

Glued a glass "gemstone" on oscillator, how gullible must you be to believe that does anything at all?

 

On one side you have people running after shit like this and on the other side you have people running after vacuum tubes from the 50's and tonewood, music industry is the circus to watch from afar.

 

I will just leave this here

https://www.soundguys.com/cable-myths-reviving-the-coathanger-test-23553/

with the quote:

Quote

1,456 preferred the coathanger (45.5% with first comparison, 36.2% without)

And the question "why do you think audiophiles and (most often wannabe, because all they have is the gear and rarely any skill) musicians avoid blind tests like vampires garlic"?

[Senzelian]

1 hour ago, EDBerG said:

Customers are most of the time NOT experts, they rely on expert opinions to tell them how things work. So yes, most of the blame goes to the scammer and not the scammed.

 

1 hour ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

Nonsense, of course you can blame the person trying to dupe you. What I'm reading between the lines of what you write is that you'd be perfectly happy to rip off people by lying to them. Maybe that's not what you're doing, but your words are clearly communicating that you don't see the seller of snake oil to be a problem. What reasonable defense of your position do you have? You only state your opinion as completely axiomatic, not because you've reasoned through your stance. I see this quite often with you in particular, this judgmental attitude that fails to take into consideration all the facets of any given situation. Why is that?

 

1 hour ago, Nystemy said:

There is reasons why there exists regulations in regards to false advertising. Consumers can rarely validate the advertisers/manufacturer's claims.

 

So no, a consumer shouldn't purely blame themselves.

A seller isn't allowed to make false claims for what their product can and can not do. Since false claims undermines the consumers ability to make rational decisions.

 

34 minutes ago, HenrySalayne said:

You have manufacturers telling you it's an amazing product. You have reviewers telling you it's an amazing product. You have costumers telling you it's an amazing product. How should they know?

 

If the customer is not making an informed decision, then they are definitely to blame. Judging a product by its reviews and its description on a webpage is only part of buying a product. If you don't validate the products claims after you've purchased it, then you've got no one to blame but yourself. There is a 14-day return window for this exact reason. You also don't need to be a network engineer to understand a product like this, in the same way you don't need to be a race car driver to validate that a car is actually as fast as the manufacturer claims.

 

No, I'm not saying the seller is not to blame. Of course they have to make accurate claims, but saying that doesn't help anyone.

 

Common sense is just as rare as diamonds these days...

 

[Avocado Diaboli]

12 minutes ago, Senzelian said:

If the customer is not making an informed decision, then they are definitely to blame. Judging a product by its reviews and its description on a webpage is only part of buying a product. If you don't validate the products claims after you've purchased it, then you've got no one to blame but yourself. There is a 14-day return window for this exact reason. You also don't need to be a network engineer to understand a product like this, in the same way you don't need to be a race car driver to validate that a car is actually as fast as the manufacturer claims.

 

Common sense is just as rare as diamonds these days...

 

 

Ok, then outline to me how exactly you are to validate the claims of this particular switch. Disassembly is actively disincentivized and you can be damn sure they wouldn't honor a return within 14 days after you took it apart to discover their arts and crafts session. Do you need some special testing equipment to validate that the signal it passes through is that much better than the cheap one? Ok, how do you procure that? Do you have to become an expert in both electronic as well as audio engineering first to properly determine that it does literally nothing?

 

See, it's really easy to just assume that you can easily validate and verify these claims as a layperson. And again, you too claim "you have no one to blame but yourself", stop fucking diverting the blame from dishonest scumbags out to fleece people. You only prove that you're a dishonorable sleazeball yourself if you deem this appropriate behavior in the seller-customer relationship, because you condone such behavior and would no doubt engage in it yourself. I can't conclude otherwise, because I assume you'd be perfectly happy if I were to tell you "well it's your own damn fault" if you were duped into buying something worthless.

 

Also, funnily enough, diamonds aren't particularly rare. You'd know that if you had validated that thought before writing it down.

[RedWhiteDevil]

55 minutes ago, MariiaN said:

With all due respect, if this switch has
DIFFERENT SOFTWARE - this is more than enough reason to claim that it Can 'improve audio experience'.
So until proven that this switch has not changed   software/firmware - LTT should have given 'em at least benefit of a doubt.

Because you know, eating up bandwidth or constantly loosing and resending  packets on-the-fly - is a precursor to pretty bad 'audio experience'

In case of most modern networking use cases, including audio streaming - software is everything...

Different firmware? You have no idea what you're talking about. This modded switch is a scam.

You wanna know what actually makes a difference? 30€ headphones vs 800€ headphones.