It’s time for some hard truth - Aqvox SE "Audiophile" Network Switch

[Avocado Diaboli]

44 minutes ago, Senzelian said:

They claim it enhances your audio, or whatever it is, and in LTT's video it is shown how you can easily check and validate those claims. Simply listen to it or even have someone else listen to it. If you buy a product that claims to do X, then you'd make sure it does X, right? It's not rocket science.

Again, this is where the aforementioned placebo effect comes in, where an audiophile goes into the experience with certain expectations that will color said experience. So even if the switch does literally nothing different to the cheap original (which it almost certainly does), the subjective feeling might still be that it's an improvement. Hence, proper validation according to your own standards. Ergo, the customer is not to blame, according to you, given that they met your rigor of testing.

 

44 minutes ago, Senzelian said:

Even if you could, you wouldn't help me or anyone else. Laws are already in place and oh look, the scammer still exists. But at some point you'll have to come to the realisation that the law is only as good as the citizens that follow and support it. So as a customer you have to open your eyes and think before making a purchase. The law won't always be able to protect you, especially not in countries that have worse consumer protection laws than the one I live in. The last wall of defence is the customer's finger resting on his mouse waiting to click "Checkout".

I could just as well turn your entire argument around and say blaming the victim also doesn't help anyone. So what are you trying to achieve? You mention the last line of the defense. You know the most important line isn't that one, but the first line of defense, right? You're talking about irrational people here; you can't appeal to their senses. This is like arguing that gambling regulation shouldn't be a thing because it's always up to the person engaging in gambling, they're the last line of defense and that anyone arguing that casinos need to abide by clear rules and are regularly inspected to combat gambling addiction is somehow out of line. And that pointing out that casinos are taking advantage of addicts doesn't help anyone. That's not how proper prevention works. Especially not in scenarios with fewer consumer protection laws. You have the privilege to argue from a relatively comfortable position and pretend everybody else has the same luxury as you. But you know, the point of blaming the scammer is to incentivize better consumer protection laws. Kinda sorta the entire point of the exercise. 

[Senzelian]

35 minutes ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

Again, this is where the aforementioned placebo effect comes in, where an audiophile goes into the experience with certain expectations that will color said experience. So even if the switch does literally nothing different to the cheap original (which it almost certainly does), the subjective feeling might still be that it's an improvement. Hence, proper validation according to your own standards. Ergo, the customer is not to blame, according to you, given that they met your rigor of testing.

And again, you can avoid an placebo effect, because it's not an illness and I've mentioned multiple validation methods.

 

35 minutes ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

You mention the last line of the defense. You know the most important line isn't that one, but the first line of defense, right?

To me it isn't. The last line is the most important because if it fails, there isn't another one. The goal keeper is the most important part of a defense.

But who said anything about importance anyway? It's not about that. It's about what is available.

 

35 minutes ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

You're talking about irrational people here; you can't appeal to their senses.

What the hell? You are blaming the victim here. And not only that, you're also insulting them.

 

35 minutes ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

You have the privilege to argue from a relatively comfortable position and pretend everybody else has the same luxury as you.

As far as I can tell every healthy person on this planet can make the use of common sense. I don't understand why you'd think that this is luxury.

 

35 minutes ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

I could just as well turn your entire argument around and say blaming the victim also doesn't help anyone.

Fantastic, but I'm not arguing for blaming the victim, I'm arguing for not ignoring the victim's blame, since this is still a thread in context of LTT's video. "It's not your fault" is the entire issue. Not only does it not help, it makes things even worse.

[Joliie]

I thought I had a look and see any local dealers have these, yup the do and overpriced af. What caught my attention was the pretty looking power cable and I could not believe the prices on those, I thought that is an error, looked at some other sites.

The Nordost Odin 2 power cord cost 24599.99 CAD for 1.25meters (the price in Denmark is just around 32812 CAD)

http://www.element-acoustics.ca/products.php?keyword=Nordost Odin 2&pid=1024

I knew that audio and visual was a bit of a scam with cables, but this is out of this world.

Also the Aqvox Edge Ethernet (That last one on the description, we all know what happens if you put the network cable in wrong direction), could not find a CAD/USD price on that, but converted from DKK its about 600 CAD

 

Quote

 

Full metal ethernet plugs with special internal conductor geometry. This high-end network cable is not comparable with regular ethernet cables, because it exceeds the up-to-date highest specifications for network cables and is very durable and long-lived.

This precision network cable transmits the data with a maximum of signal quality. The signal quality is better, than with every other freely available network cable.

Outstanding transmission quality for all kind of music, video and other data at high-speed transmission rates. With this excellent ethernet cable the performance of high-end audio and video tracks is being improved permanently. The materials used, like plugs and the raw cable, are carefully manufactured in Hamburg - Germany.

The direction of the cable is marked.

 

 

[Avocado Diaboli]

42 minutes ago, Senzelian said:

And again, you can avoid an placebo effect, because it's not an illness and I've mentioned multiple validation methods.

Actually no, the placebo effect happens even if you're aware of it only being a placebo. And "placebo" isn't just related to diseases, I have no idea why you keep trying to tie it down to the medical field. The placebo effect is psychological, not physiological, that's why it works in all sorts of instances.

 

42 minutes ago, Senzelian said:

To me it isn't. The last line is the most important because if it fails, there isn't another one. The goal keeper is the most important part of a defense.

But who said anything about importance anyway? It's not about that. It's about what is available.

 

Sorry, but an ultima ratio is always a method that throws all caution to the wind and seeks to avert disaster with the most acceptable lesser evil. That's not the most important line of defense and any implication otherwise is nonsensical. Also, nice try to handwave away the importance of lines of defense. Not gonna work, though.

 

42 minutes ago, Senzelian said:

What the hell? You are blaming the victim here. And not only that, you're also insulting them.

No, I'm not blaming them, I'm actually doing the opposite. And yes, I am making fun of audiophiles. Haven't you noticed how I've been making fun of them this entire time?

 

42 minutes ago, Senzelian said:

Fantastic, but I'm not arguing for blaming the victim, I'm arguing for not ignoring the victim's blame, since this is still a thread in context of LTT's video. "It's not your fault" is the entire issue. Not only does it not help, it makes things even worse.

In that case I assume you have little experience in talking to victims of any sort of thing. As it happens I have quite a few years of experience in dealing with victims of a much more serious nature and the first step to foster understanding and open dialogue is to not barge in and look for ways to put blame at the victim's feet. That only ensures that the victim shuts down and refuses to engage with you and your arguments.

 

I make fun of audiophiles because I'm not in the business of consumer protection and I like knocking their unwarranted elitism down a few pegs. But Linus is acting in a different role, one that seeks to inform. You don't convince people by marching into their space and claiming everything they believe to be true is nonsense and that they're idiots for believing it. No, you cushion the blow by appealing to their ego, which primes them to be open to what you have to present to them.

 

So no, Linus isn't making it worse, he is employing actually real methods used successfully to engage with victims as well as ambassadorial rhetoric that seeks to convince and not to antagonize. This is a good thing. So stop pretending you have insight into how this stuff works. You clearly don't.

[Rex Hite]

My cynical side thinks 'luxury brand' buyers should be fleeced. There's a kind of weird justice. BMW seat heaters should be an ongoing expense. Video cards should be a thousand dollars because there needs to be a price for gormlessness. But only a price the gormless are willing to pay. I'm cynical not cruel. It's the willingness and willfulness of that market which ethically sets it apart. Luxury brand items aren't marketed to the poor and downtrodden.

[Senzelian]

1 hour ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

Actually no, the placebo effect happens even if you're aware of it only being a placebo.

I wrote avoidable. I don't care if it "happens".

 

1 hour ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

And "placebo" isn't just related to diseases, I have no idea why you keep trying to tie it down to the medical field.

Cause you treat it like a disease.

 

1 hour ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

Not gonna work, though.

Yeah of course it's not going to work, because you're hung up on something that does not matter and doesn't fit the conversation. It's incredibly hard to concentrate on one topic when you're constantly trying to dodge any argument I make with something that is entirely irrelevant.

 

1 hour ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

Haven't you noticed how I've been making fun of them this entire time?

I don't care if you've started doing it now or 10 years ago. It's simply childish and doesn't help this conversation. You're acrively avoiding confrontation with nonsense like that instead of actually reading and thinking. This is exactly what I meant with the lack of common sense nowdays. You clearly have it, but you chose to not use it.

 

1 hour ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

In that case I assume you have little experience in talking to victims of any sort of thing. As it happens I have quite a few years of experience in dealing with victims of a much more serious nature and the first step to foster understanding and open dialogue is to not barge in and look for ways to put blame at the victim's feet. That only ensures that the victim shuts down and refuses to engage with you and your arguments.

Right now I'm writing to you and not a victim. You're making baseless assumptions about my behavior towards a victim.

 

1 hour ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

You don't convince people by marching into their space and claiming everything they believe to be true is nonsense and that they're idiots for believing it.

No one did that.
I did not do that. (Edited it, cause who knows, maybe someone in this thread likes to do that lol)

 

1 hour ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

No, you cushion the blow by appealing to their ego, which primes them to be open to what you have to present to them.

Appealing to their ego by being of the mindset that they're "irrational people"? Don't act again like you're just joking again.

 

1 hour ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

So no, Linus isn't making it worse, he is employing actually real methods used successfully to engage with victims as well as ambassadorial rhetoric that seeks to convince and not to antagonize. This is a good thing. So stop pretending you have insight into how this stuff works. You clearly don't.

What has one to do with the other? You're not even capable of using this knowledge that you have within this conversation and continue to think I'd listen to you. When I read sentences that start with "So stop ..." and "You clearly" my bullshit detector immediately jumps up.

[Avocado Diaboli]

You know, @Senzelian, if you'd stop replying to each of my sentences individually and read them as one coherent argument, you might gleam the meaning encoded within that seems to continuously elude you. I'm done playing this game of entertaining any of your random thoughts just because you seem incapable of understanding what I'm telling you. I suggest you read my previous comment again, this time focusing on the actual argument I'm making, not to try and find a retort for each of my sentences and maybe take into consideration the entire rest of the conversation that has led up to it. Because I honestly believe at this point I'd be wasting my time to reply to your individual quips. 

[Sarra]

Well, I feel dumb. I just spent $300 on a new network switch...

 

Oh.

 

Wait.

 

It's a 10GBE switch... Here's hoping it's actually faster than my old 1GBE switch. 

 

Fo real. I use a $100 set of DJ headphones. And a Shiit DAC. It's not the pinnacle of audio technology, but it sounds good enough to me.

[Jenos_Idanian]

On 10/30/2022 at 2:48 PM, power666 said:

The sad thing is that there are legitimate audiophile network switches.  They are expensive and specialized as they extend the actual Ethernet specification to support features like real bandwidth reservation in the switch, queuing alterations, time clock and determinism.  These are several suites of standards like 802.1Qav (AVB), 802.1Qbv (TSN), 802.1Qcv (TSN), and IEEE 1588/802.1AS (time clock).  These features are distinctly marked on the switches.  Since the AQ-SWITCH doesn't have any of these features, it is indeed snake oil.

 

Now for some errors in the video.  

 

Absolutely true that as a digitial signal you either get it or not, the CAT cables that connect between the audio device and the switch does carry one other thing: ground.  Benign in the digital world, if the audio end point has analog components (ADC, amplifier etc.) there is the potential for ground hum to go from the switch to the analog end point. (Ground hum like this does not matter for a digital to digital end point as noted in the video.)  This can be avoided by using unshielded CAT cables which don't carry the ground lines used for shielding.  I have actually encountered this in the field with a microphone with the manufacturer's solution simply being don't use shielded cables.

 

Layer 2 connections can be aware of the connection because technologies like AVB/TSN are layer 2 based.  All the streams are broadcast and subscribed on the layer 2 level using the MSRP protocol as part of the greater AVB/TSN spec.  VXLAN is necessary to tunnel this layer 2 traffic over a layer 3 connection that would not normally be bridged and hope that the switch is fast enough to keep traffic within the proper latency bounds for AVB/TSN.

I can appreciate that qav does indeed better protect the signal compared to UDP, which would just drop the packet, or even probably better than fcs having to re request information, which is why TCP is not used for audio/video. But all that would do is guarantee the information fidelity from source to destination, not actually improve it. Layer 2 devices can be aware or what endpoint is on the other side, yes, but they do not discern what the information they are carrying is, it's all encapsulated. If every L2 device had to completely unpack and repack the information passing through it.....that would increase latency at every hop. Let me ask you this, are you setting up home theaters? Or critical services like 911, military, or utility dispatches that cannot afford to have UDP drop any packets while communication(video or audio) is taking place?

 

Please feel free to give me some material to read up if I am way off base here, it's very possible I am.

[Jenos_Idanian]

23 hours ago, kirashi said:

Ethernet cables carrying a digital signal either transmit 100% of the signal correctly, or fail to transmit the signal at all. Yes, it's true that packets do get re-sent from time to time, however, as far as the end-user / software applications are concerned, the data either reaches its destination uncorrupted or it doesn't.

Not 100% accurate. It depends on what the context is. If the video and audio are like the segment that we all watched, a precorded hosted media file being transferred over the internet, then it's likely going over TCP and the fcs will make sure that all packets are in fact free from imperfections ( the receiving end will request resend of any packets that don't show up with all the parts that they were sent with or that just don't show up) and we have smooth and clear audio and video. If it's a real time video chat or conference call, or voip call, then it's most likely over UDP, and there is no fcs. You get what you get. You can transmit both TCP and UDP and things can be dropped. Doesn't mean it didn't send.

[Jenos_Idanian]

On 10/30/2022 at 4:55 PM, Senzelian said:

Use Google and learn how sound is transmitted over a network

I would be curious to know how that works?

[Needfuldoer]

20 hours ago, Sarra said:

Fo real. I use a $100 set of DJ headphones. And a Shiit DAC. It's not the pinnacle of audio technology, but it sounds good enough to me.

My living room speaker setup is currently an 80s Mitsubishi hi-fi pair with 12" woofers connected to a slightly flaky Pioneer 5.1 system. I'm considering finally getting a modern sound bar with remote sub, though.

 

Before that it was a boom box with a cassette to line in adapter. (That's since become the workshop speakers, at least until I get around to recapping a Bose Wave Radio.)

 

2 hours ago, Jenos_Idanian said:

I would be curious to know how that works?

Human cognition will compensate for a dropped packet. There's a reason TCP is used for the handshake while the media stream is UDP.

 

On the complete opposite end of the spectrum from a VoIP call, there's Dante.

 

https://www.audinate.com/meet-dante/what-is-dante

[eldakka]

On 10/31/2022 at 6:10 AM, Just that Mario said:

You cannot blame the person trying to sell you bs. You can only blame yourself for buying that bs. When you start blaming the con-artist, it's a clear sign you are too ignorant to face your own failure. It is actually admirable how people manage to sell absolute nonsense for large sums of money.

WOW! You must be a true polymath. It's nice to meet someone who know's everything about everything and never has to rely on reviewers, specification sheets, manufacturers claims, marketing, sales staff, any 2nd or 3rd parties at all. You must know enough quantum physics and electrical engineering to read all integrated device schematics and understand how it all works, what every gate does individually and in combination, what the field and quantum tunneling effects are at that scale, so you can decide whether the integrated circuit does what you want it to do. Not to mention knowing everything there is to know about materials science, so you know that the materials making up the circuit are all suitable for the job. This means you can evaluate everything from the plastic in the dash of your car, to the quality of the metals making up the chassis, to being able to look at a jet trurbine's compressor blades and understand and judge whether the material can accomplish the task without having to refer to the engine manufacturer's documentation or rely on the aviation certificates. Oh, and the aerospace engineering you must have at your beck and call to be able to look at an aircraft you are about to board and evaluate the lift forces, drag, propulsion power levels, fuel capacity, all at a glance, to know whether the plane will be able to take you to your destination. And obviously you have no need of medical diagnosticians or pathologists, as you know all the chemistry and biology, and medical science to diagnose your own illnesses, so you don't need to rely on the opinions of doctors.

 

Your knowlege must extend to carpentry, electrical work, architecture and civil engineering so you can evaluate every structure you need to enter, use or cross. Just at a glance you can tell whether a bridge meets the load bearing requirements without having to consult anyone or any documentation or certifications. It must be nice to be able to glance at a house and know it's in a flood zone, or the structure is up to earthquake standards, or that it's got wood rot or terminates without having to engage any specialists who's word you'd otherwise need to take. Same is true for the chainsaw, lawn-mower, boat you may buy, that you don't have to trust that any certification it has is genuine, as you know all the related sciences to inspect it and make your own decision.

 

You are truely awesome to nevery have to take anyone's word for anything.

[Sarra]

1 hour ago, Needfuldoer said:

Before that it was a boom box with a cassette to line in adapter. (That's since become the workshop speakers, at least until I get around to recapping a Bose Wave Radio.)

Oh man, I remember using one of those to give my car a CD player.

[Sarra]

1 hour ago, eldakka said:

You are truely awesome to nevery have to take anyone's word for anything.

Please, stop feeding the troll.

[Motifator]

23 hours ago, Rex Hite said:

My cynical side thinks 'luxury brand' buyers should be fleeced. There's a kind of weird justice. BMW seat heaters should be an ongoing expense. Video cards should be a thousand dollars because there needs to be a price for gormlessness. But only a price the gormless are willing to pay. I'm cynical not cruel. It's the willingness and willfulness of that market which ethically sets it apart. Luxury brand items aren't marketed to the poor and downtrodden.

Seat heating existed for couple decades, even cooling can be had with various other luxury bits such as 360 cam on an EX37. You can actually buy that crossover used at 70-80k miles for like $7k, it's a lot of vehicle for the cash. Something a relatively poor individual can make up and buy. BMW is just marketing like heated heats is something special, lol screw them.

On topic of audiophiles, audiophiles have mostly been audiofools, that is the issue with them. People who actually deal with what is good or affordable, and what is overpriced or how many unnecessary headphones one needs are bit different.

But I agree with the video and topic, most audiophiles I see are idiots. I'd classify myself as an audiophile (I mean who else sings on $500 vocal mic at home), but I wouldn't say I'm stupid for buying that mic. I knew what I was buying when I bought into it, and it's been amazing with proper compression. I'd still say I may be an idiot, but not for some of the audio purchases I've done. That's something entirely else, I'd like to say I know about.

[Jenos_Idanian]

5 hours ago, Needfuldoer said:

My living room speaker setup is currently an 80s Mitsubishi hi-fi pair with 12" woofers connected to a slightly flaky Pioneer 5.1 system. I'm considering finally getting a modern sound bar with remote sub, though.

 

Before that it was a boom box with a cassette to line in adapter. (That's since become the workshop speakers, at least until I get around to recapping a Bose Wave Radio.)

 

Human cognition will compensate for a dropped packet. There's a reason TCP is used for the handshake while the media stream is UDP.

 

On the complete opposite end of the spectrum from a VoIP call, there's Dante.

 

https://www.audinate.com/meet-dante/what-is-dante

Hmmmm, I  read the site page and watched the video, but outside of maybe a couple convenient gui things I didn't really see anything that seemed really special. Maybe I am missing something? Seemed like the presenter was espousing the benefits of a network, but in a way that kinda made it seem like Dante brought these benefits, not that they they were just part of modern networking.

[Kid.Lazer]

On 10/30/2022 at 6:18 PM, Senzelian said:

It's like you walk blindly over the street and expect every single car to stop for you. Pointing fingers at the driver after you've been hit won't safe your butt. 

This is so true. When growing up, I was always taught that pedestrians have the right of way, but that right does you no good when you're dead.

Even though as a pedestrian I should be safe, I must still my perform my due diligence and make sure I'm not about to get hit by a bus.

 

Likewise, what you (and a few others) are trying to say is that the customer has not done their due diligence. And to be clear, we're not excusing the seller of these scams. But we must also include the gullible twits that believe everything they hear and read without a second thought.

 

 

[Needfuldoer]

1 hour ago, Jenos_Idanian said:

Hmmmm, I  read the site page and watched the video, but outside of maybe a couple convenient gui things I didn't really see anything that seemed really special. Maybe I am missing something? Seemed like the presenter was espousing the benefits of a network, but in a way that kinda made it seem like Dante brought these benefits, not that they they were just part of modern networking.

Dante's more designed as an audio router for TV stations, recording studios, venues, etc. The whole ecosystem is geared toward audio professionals who are used to point-to-point analog home runs and crosspoint routers.

[Mollenon]

If you check on their website you can see they have plenty of scam devices, cables and accessories. One of them is the “Lan detoxer cap Network decontaminator”. A simple plastic cap (which you can buy on Amazon for 10$ for 50 pieces ) used to avoid annoying dust inside unused ports. It is sold with a brand yellow sticker and a so called “quartz” embedded to make sure  that cit.“electromagnetic frequencies are harmonized and electromagnetic pollution (electro smog) is minimized”. 
For a price of just 99,90$ for 6 of them. 

 

I would tell you also about the 199,00$ ethernet CAT 7 cable (shielded of course) and x2 shielded plugs (looks like 10Gb/40Gb male plugs) anyway to be used on a simple Gb switch they sell, but then I prefer you get your own conclusions…

[Rex Hite]

It's not a scam, it's interactive performance art where the buyer unwittingly creates half the finished work. A router with a chunk of glass hot-glued to it deserves pride-of-place next to a Warhol in any gallery.

[HenrySalayne]

13 hours ago, Jenos_Idanian said:

I can appreciate that qav does indeed better protect the signal compared to UDP, which would just drop the packet, or even probably better than fcs having to re request information, which is why TCP is not used for audio/video. But all that would do is guarantee the information fidelity from source to destination, not actually improve it. Layer 2 devices can be aware or what endpoint is on the other side, yes, but they do not discern what the information they are carrying is, it's all encapsulated. If every L2 device had to completely unpack and repack the information passing through it.....that would increase latency at every hop.

The entire AVB stack does a lot more, like sample-synchronous play-out across 7 hops (if I recall correctly) with minimal latency (and even more hops with more network latency). And it does need specialized hardware with the AVB stack implemented (Macbooks had native AVB support for a while, but Apple dropped it).

But AVB is an AoIP (and Video over IP) solution like Dante for realtime use.

Streaming audio from Spotify, Tidal or your home server is something completely different. You can easily fill buffers with seconds or minutes of audio. Even calling AVB "audiophile" is just plainly wrong. It's for professional users, mainly broadcasting agencies, hence the name "audio video broadcasting". It's a real pain in the b*** to wire up a large building with recording and production studios or event centres. That's where you would get an AVB capable network running and everything can be routed everywhere. It has no place in a household.

 

[BobVonBob]

Aqvox isn't even close to the worst in their field. Just check out "highend-electronics". Page after page of blatantly fake and ridiculously expensive audio nonsense, most with an even shakier grip on reality than an audio network switch. I found it years ago and scroll through it occasionally for laughs, the "Accessories" are usually the most fake and therefore funniest.

 

For instance, audio rock:

https://highend-electronics.com/products/shakti-the-stone

[Jenos_Idanian]

4 hours ago, HenrySalayne said:

The entire AVB stack does a lot more, like sample-synchronous play-out across 7 hops (if I recall correctly) with minimal latency (and even more hops with more network latency). And it does need specialized hardware with the AVB stack implemented (Macbooks had native AVB support for a while, but Apple dropped it).

But AVB is an AoIP (and Video over IP) solution like Dante for realtime use.

Streaming audio from Spotify, Tidal or your home server is something completely different. You can easily fill buffers with seconds or minutes of audio. Even calling AVB "audiophile" is just plainly wrong. It's for professional users, mainly broadcasting agencies, hence the name "audio video broadcasting". It's a real pain in the b*** to wire up a large building with recording and production studios or event centres. That's where you would get an AVB capable network running and everything can be routed everywhere. It has no place in a household.

 

Right, but a quick search will show that most entry level enterprise gear can run these protocols. So "specialized" audio routers and switches is a bit misleading. Companies that make them specially for the audio community are kinda yanking a chain it seems like.

[HenrySalayne]

3 hours ago, Jenos_Idanian said:

Right, but a quick search will show that most entry level enterprise gear can run these protocols. So "specialized" audio routers and switches is a bit misleading. Companies that make them specially for the audio community are kinda yanking a chain it seems like.

Actually, no. AVB capable switches are quite rare. Manufacturers are not willing to implement AVB for a small number of user so most manufacturers have only one or two model ranges, if any.

Take a look at this list: https://support.biamp.com/Tesira/AVB/List_of_AVB-capable_Ethernet_switches

That's certainly not "most entry level enterprise gear".