It’s time for some hard truth - Aqvox SE "Audiophile" Network Switch

[Just that Mario]

On 10/30/2022 at 9:42 PM, HenrySalayne said:

You have manufacturers telling you it's an amazing product. You have reviewers telling you it's an amazing product. You have costumers telling you it's an amazing product. How should they know?

They trust whatever they want, make an educated decision on whether they need the product. If they decide to get it, they can evaluate if it suits them or not. You guys are absolutely mental in protecting stupidity.

[Jenos_Idanian]

11 hours ago, HenrySalayne said:

Actually, no. AVB capable switches are quite rare. Manufacturers are not willing to implement AVB for a small number of user so most manufacturers have only one or two model ranges, if any.

Take a look at this list: https://support.biamp.com/Tesira/AVB/List_of_AVB-capable_Ethernet_switches

That's certainly not "most entry level enterprise gear".

I would argue that you proved my point. It's not rare. You can get it across multiple vendors across multiple product lines. I'm not talking about small business or soho grade stuff. Real enterprise level stuff. Cisco catalyst couldn't fit that bill any more, and those are some of the most common units out there. Sure, no juniper or brocade, but this isn't exactly hard to find. Or rare.

[Thaldor]

12 hours ago, HenrySalayne said:

Actually, no. AVB capable switches are quite rare. Manufacturers are not willing to implement AVB for a small number of user so most manufacturers have only one or two model ranges, if any.

Take a look at this list: https://support.biamp.com/Tesira/AVB/List_of_AVB-capable_Ethernet_switches

That's certainly not "most entry level enterprise gear".

At the same time with Dante, just use whatever you want. 1Gbit or better is heavily recommended but if you are recording just one instrument at time and it isn't fully rigged drums, you might get by with just 100Mbit network. Cisco stuff needs some extra care because it's Cisco stuff and there's step-by-step guide to follow after which you can get CCNA1 certificate without problems.

 

Dante may seem the more expensive one if you just go and look at the gear without understanding what you are looking at and what things do. But a lot of things with Dante are aimed for studios and other places where having Dante certified speakers that costed couple kidneys aren't in because they are good but because they costed a lot and they hope the customers are as out of the information as general population that they think those speakers mean that they ain't paying a lot of money to just fuck around. IF you are about to just record single instrument at time you can equip your soundproof box with Dante by just getting Dante AVIO input box for the about 200 whatever-currency and vóla, you have just turned your mini studio to this day with AoIP and all because that's all you need, that little plug-thing, 1Gbit LAN network and computer (and of course the preamp mics and whatever music gear you need anyway). You do need the software for your computer and you can get expensive and fast with them but if you ain't going big the DVS is all you need (with the free Controller software) and you have 64 bidirectional channels straight from your computers RJ45-port without any extra shit.

 

Even the "Dante certified Engineer" is pretty much just that if you have money to burn and no one wants to read few pages of technical jargon and you want shiny "Dante certified" sticker to your window. Otherwise just connect the devices open the Controller software, do the connection and back to the work you go.

 

Pretty much the biggest difference between AVB and Dante is that AVB is that Dante is older and made for studios and so it has the pros of not needing anything too much special, you can get Focusrite 32-channel interface, put in the studio, attach network cable and that's pretty much it. Dante is licensed so not many like that just like they do not like that you don't need anything too special to use it, which is why "open" IEEE AVB was done and you won't be surprised to find Harman and Apple supporting it. AVB is bti easier to setup as a network but it is significantly more expensive to build and it's pretty much specs wise worse (Dante is at max. 512 channels in and out so 1028 channels total per network with maximum latency of 1ms while AVB manages even with the more expensive network gear just 384 channels per network with 2ms max latency). Pretty much only reason to go AVB is brand loyalty or you want to be "OpEn-sOUrCe FoR lYfE!".

And if you are doing something critical like live broadcasting or something that must work, always go Dante because AVB does not support failsafe connections, as in a lot of Dante gear has 2 connections for the failsafe while none of the AVB stuff has any kind of failsafe unless you do a whole failsafe network and double everything.

[HenrySalayne]

2 hours ago, Jenos_Idanian said:

I would argue that you proved my point. It's not rare. You can get it across multiple vendors across multiple product lines.

By your definition CNG cars are not rare. But somehow they are. Could it be that the definition of the term "rare" is not lining up with what your saying?

If only 1 in 100,000 switches being sold supports a standard which has been around since 2010, these switches are rare.

 

15 minutes ago, Thaldor said:

Even the "Dante certified Engineer" is pretty much just that if you have money to burn and no one wants to read few pages of technical jargon and you want shiny "Dante certified" sticker to your window. Otherwise just connect the devices open the Controller software, do the connection and back to the work you go.

AFAIK the courses are free. And you should take a course if you want to actually use Dante.

20 minutes ago, Thaldor said:

AVB is bti easier to setup as a network but it is significantly more expensive to build and it's pretty much specs wise worse (Dante is at max. 512 channels in and out so 1028 channels total per network with maximum latency of 1ms while AVB manages even with the more expensive network gear just 384 channels per network with 2ms max latency). Pretty much only reason to go AVB is brand loyalty or you want to be "OpEn-sOUrCe FoR lYfE!".

This paragraph is completely wrong, but please don't expect me to point out everything. I only mentioned Dante because just like AVB it's a truly and utterly stupid idea to use it at home.

23 minutes ago, Thaldor said:

But a lot of things with Dante are aimed for studios and other places where having Dante certified speakers that costed couple kidneys aren't in because they are good but because they costed a lot and they hope the customers are as out of the information as general population that they think those speakers mean that they ain't paying a lot of money to just fuck around

Dante capable speakers are used because it saves hours and hours of labour. In a venue with 50 speakers across 10 rooms you can easily route any mix bus where you need it with just a few mouse-clicks. That's why these speakers are use, not to impress somebody.

[EZTutty]

Damn, I was going to get one of these.

 

I guess I'll just have to spend all my money on Audiophile grade fuses instead... https://www.futureshop.co.uk/quantum-science-audio-silver-extreme-level-uk-13a-fuse?gclid=CjwKCAjwzY2bBhB6EiwAPpUpZtE4wbUsgOHWwGsIR1hVsst9kzmMrLKes48A_o6r44GdyFWWUXm2bhoC3dgQAvD_BwE

 

 

 

/s

 

[power666]

On 11/1/2022 at 1:57 AM, Jenos_Idanian said:

I can appreciate that qav does indeed better protect the signal compared to UDP, which would just drop the packet, or even probably better than fcs having to re request information, which is why TCP is not used for audio/video. But all that would do is guarantee the information fidelity from source to destination, not actually improve it. Layer 2 devices can be aware or what endpoint is on the other side, yes, but they do not discern what the information they are carrying is, it's all encapsulated. If every L2 device had to completely unpack and repack the information passing through it.....that would increase latency at every hop. Let me ask you this, are you setting up home theaters? Or critical services like 911, military, or utility dispatches that cannot afford to have UDP drop any packets while communication(video or audio) is taking place?

 

Please feel free to give me some material to read up if I am way off base here, it's very possible I am.

The digital data itself is not altered, as you point out, but rather the data flow.  AVB/TSN reduces the concept of jitter by bounding latencies.  Real time devices generically just playback a buffer which is interesting when data arrives out-of-order or at an inconsistent rate due to highly variable latencies or when clocks are not properly sync'd.  By changing how data arrives in that buffer, the playback is then changed.  The closer to real-time the work is, the more likely playing back data that arrives out-of-order or simply skipping missing data becomes.  That where the chaos is introduced in the digital world:  the data itself isn't corrupted but rather how it gets to the destination can be over a switched network.

 

No need to pack/unpack the data stream when you can properly register what it is with a header.  This registration process of what the data stream is defined as part of the MSRP (Multi-stream reservation protocol) inside the switch.  The presence of these streams are broadcast out so that devices across different switches can exchange data.  What the data type is part of the header so video streams are distinct from audio streams.  Other data types are also permitted as AVB/TSN is leveraged in the automotive industry for sensors as well as industrial applications like manufacturing.  One of the more interesting applications I've heard of is encapsulating USB as a data stream since that too is latency sensitive for extending a USB signal over a network.

 

As for what I do, my typical day-to-day is part of an in-house AV integration team for a Fortune 100 company.  The audio work is mainly for conferencing/class room applications though I have done theaters/auditoriums as part of the job (they're just far more rare).  My biggest project was an campus wide audio network encompassing six buildings where only the network based microphones and amplifiers/speakers were in the rooms with the DSP processing all being centralized in a single networking closet.  This permitted things like paging to be incorporated 'for free' as the infrastructure was already in place for it.  Just had to add PoE capable AVB/TSN switch to every floor and then leveraged some fiber rooms that the networking team were abandoning in favor of some new OM5 fiber they were having laid for normal data traffic.  Outside of my day-to-day job I've done a bit of consulting and helped a friend of mine design the industrial manufacturing network for a chemical plant.  That consulting gig did involve some mission critical devices though not quiet like you were describing. 

 

 

[power666]

On 11/1/2022 at 3:21 PM, HenrySalayne said:

The entire AVB stack does a lot more, like sample-synchronous play-out across 7 hops (if I recall correctly) with minimal latency (and even more hops with more network latency). And it does need specialized hardware with the AVB stack implemented (Macbooks had native AVB support for a while, but Apple dropped it).

But AVB is an AoIP (and Video over IP) solution like Dante for realtime use.

Streaming audio from Spotify, Tidal or your home server is something completely different. You can easily fill buffers with seconds or minutes of audio. Even calling AVB "audiophile" is just plainly wrong. It's for professional users, mainly broadcasting agencies, hence the name "audio video broadcasting". It's a real pain in the b*** to wire up a large building with recording and production studios or event centres. That's where you would get an AVB capable network running and everything can be routed everywhere. It has no place in a household.

 

 

AVB is audio video bridging.

 

I haven't checked the latest MacOS release but AVB has still been supported on capable hardware.  The gotcha is that few Apple devices currently have hardwared networking so it is becoming increasingly rare unless a Thunderbolt dongle is acquired.

 

It is a pain to wire up a large building but the great thing is that the cabling doesn't need to change to add AVB/TSN features.  CAT5E is good for 2.5 Gbit and PoE.  There is also the factor that new buildings will have some form of wired infrastructure regardless if only to support wireless access points for end users.

 

TSN becoming part of the Wifi 7 standard.  That is where things are rapidly changing as AVB/TSN capable switches are going to become mainstream to support these additional features. 

 

I personally have five AVB capable switches at home, but I'm also not a typical end user.  I'm bringing my work home a bit.

[power666]

On 11/1/2022 at 11:43 PM, HenrySalayne said:

Actually, no. AVB capable switches are quite rare. Manufacturers are not willing to implement AVB for a small number of user so most manufacturers have only one or two model ranges, if any.

Take a look at this list: https://support.biamp.com/Tesira/AVB/List_of_AVB-capable_Ethernet_switches

That's certainly not "most entry level enterprise gear".

 

You do know that that is a link to audio manufacturer's page that isn't comprehensive right?  For example, that page doesn't list any Arista gear which does support AVB.  Ditto for some of the Mellanox/nVidia switches.  

 

The key thing is that AVB/TSN is being added to modern switch ASICs.  They're pretty much going to have to as Wi-fi 7 is set to introduce TSN to the mases.  It is still up to the switch manufacturer to expose that capability.

[power666]

20 hours ago, Thaldor said:

Pretty much the biggest difference between AVB and Dante is that AVB is that Dante is older and made for studios and so it has the pros of not needing anything too much special, you can get Focusrite 32-channel interface, put in the studio, attach network cable and that's pretty much it. Dante is licensed so not many like that just like they do not like that you don't need anything too special to use it, which is why "open" IEEE AVB was done and you won't be surprised to find Harman and Apple supporting it. AVB is bti easier to setup as a network but it is significantly more expensive to build and it's pretty much specs wise worse (Dante is at max. 512 channels in and out so 1028 channels total per network with maximum latency of 1ms while AVB manages even with the more expensive network gear just 384 channels per network with 2ms max latency). Pretty much only reason to go AVB is brand loyalty or you want to be "OpEn-sOUrCe FoR lYfE!".

The difference between Dante and AVB is only a few years.  The real difference is that Dante was designed to work over existing switches at the time instead of needing new network switch chips spun to support the queuing enhancements.  Audinate also got the protocol discovery right and all of their products early on needed to be certified for interoperability.  That is why it took off as they got the first mover advantage.

 

While the Harmon group does support AVB in a few select products, they're mostly a Dante outfit at the professional level.

 

Both AVB and Dante support more than 512 channels over a network.  How much you can move over a single link is bandwidth dependent and how the audio channels are configured (ie how much bandwidth an individual audio stream takes).  There is a slight advantage to AVB due to how it can bundle channels together to reduce some of the overhead.  AVB does have a unique limitation to the number of queues a switch can support simultaneously with the enterprise stuff typically having 1024 queues, consumer 128/256 queues.  That's for how many streams can be moved and with bundling the raw number of audio channels can be higher. 

 

20 hours ago, Thaldor said:

And if you are doing something critical like live broadcasting or something that must work, always go Dante because AVB does not support failsafe connections, as in a lot of Dante gear has 2 connections for the failsafe while none of the AVB stuff has any kind of failsafe unless you do a whole failsafe network and double everything.

 

Both AVB and Dante fail safe connections essentially require the doubling of hardware to get it right:  the goal is to remove a single point of failure.

 

AVB not only does support redundant connections, it also can support fabrics between switches.  Redundant streams are tagged as such with the switch network actually attempts to have it take a different path than the primary stream.  Interestingly enough, the primary and secondary streams can coexist on the same logical network, something Dante cannot do (the primary and secondary require separate subnets).

[power666]

20 hours ago, HenrySalayne said:

This paragraph is completely wrong, but please don't expect me to point out everything. I only mentioned Dante because just like AVB it's a truly and utterly stupid idea to use it at home.

Dante capable speakers are used because it saves hours and hours of labour. In a venue with 50 speakers across 10 rooms you can easily route any mix bus where you need it with just a few mouse-clicks. That's why these speakers are use, not to impress somebody.

I will agree that Dante based speakers do save money in terms of labor and deployment due to the reliance on CAT cabling.  That is also why I would argue that they are also a good fit for home usage:  one cable cable type to rule them all.  The next logical move is to go wireless and WiFi 7 will bring AVB/TSN features.  Just would need to power the speakers which brings the debate to the classic passive/active speaker argument. 

[power666]

22 hours ago, Jenos_Idanian said:

I would argue that you proved my point. It's not rare. You can get it across multiple vendors across multiple product lines. I'm not talking about small business or soho grade stuff. Real enterprise level stuff. Cisco catalyst couldn't fit that bill any more, and those are some of the most common units out there. Sure, no juniper or brocade, but this isn't exactly hard to find. Or rare.

Brocade is sort of on that list:  Extreme Networks acquired them.  You do need to run in EXOS mode currently as SLX and the Fabric Engine do not support AVB/TSN features (yet).

[IRMacGuyver]

Why is no one suing these types of people for false advertising.  I get why no one can stop the crappy ones on Amazon (though I think at that point Amazon should be responsible for hosting it) but this is a supposedly legit company with real ads.  I think Linus and people like him should bite the bullet and sue them for the rest of us.  Start a class action or something. 

[kasugatei]

There is a really simple way to distinguish people who know how sound works from “audiophiles”. The first group will have probably the most important part of having a good sound - an acoustic room treatment while the latter group will pursue “better sound” via magical cables, magical stones, magical switches etc. and their setup will be in a normal room.

[Rex Hite]

Step one should be making sure your ears are clear of excess wax!

 

There ought to be audiophile ear cleaning kits with audiophile grade swabs and 'special'  hydrogen peroxide formulas. All at a huge price premium. There's a business opportunity.

[JustinTynan]

If they still have the network switch they really need to check If the holographic stickers hidden all around the PCB are radioactive.

 

[Cliff Hulcoop]

Many are confusing audiophiles wanting perfection, when many audiophiles simply want to listen to music the way they like to hear it. For example, I forget the exact details so forgive me on this and this is from memory, but I saw a documentary or it may have been a YouTube video featuring a manufacturer of a special samples type music keyboard. It was based on a sampling machine from the 1960s (I forget the details but The Beatles used it for the intro of Strawberry Fields). In the one available in the 60s it used lengths of 7 inch magnetic tape (like those found on reel to reel tape recorders) but strips of it instead. The company were trying to make a modern portable version of that. They recorded the original samples digitally but they felt the sound did not have the "warm" analogue sound of the original so they then recorded the sounds onto 7 inch tape using an analogue tape recorder then digitally sampled the analogue tape recording of the original digital sounds.

From a "perfection" and "ultimate sound quality" perspective this makes no sense from a musical sense it makes perfect sense. The tape recorder was itself acting as an instrument affecting the sound to make it sound warmer and nicer even though it was now technically inferior.

 

I have come across many top of the range (usually CD) systems which have excellent clarity and have astonishing sound quality but are in my view totally unlistenable. They seem to have stripped the heart and soul out of the music where you can admire the technical engineers of the equipment but no longer want to feel like you want to cry when the singer is singing to you.

 

The analogue warmth people talk about gives the feeling the singer is singing to YOU or playing for YOU. With digital systems it sounds like you cannot hear the essence of the melody for the detail.

 

Also some mock audiophiles and how much they pay for things but it is like any hobby. How much is anything worth? To some a $1000 Graphics card is value for money if they have spent $5000 on games. Some have spent thousands of pounds on CDs or records and want to hear them as best as possible the way they like.

 

Regarding scamming people, not all audiophiles are IT experts and genuinely don't know how computers work nor should they need to. Companies blatantly ripping off people should be shut down.

 

But it becomes problematic when people argue about value for money.