How NOT to Make a PC - feat. HP

[manikyath]

55 minutes ago, ToboRobot said:

HPs failure to include a shroud in such a custom product seems odd.  Rushed to market?

the mini's are pretty much designed so the case itself is the shroud.

 

it works great on the prodesk/elitedesk DM side, but the Z-mini's really arent as refined as HP seems to think they are.

[BigDamn]

Any laptop or small form factor desktop with Intel CPUs WILL have this problem. This isn't exclusive to HP. My Dell XPS has an 11th gen i7 that runs above base clock for all of two seconds before throttling (at full load). Why do you think Apple switched to their own silicon? Apple was in the exact same boat as HP, Dell, etc. until they had the balls to bet on themselves and produce their own chips.

 

The real question is, why are OEMs so reluctant to utilize lower power AMD chips? Of all the CPUs available on the Z2 Mini, none of them are AMD. Same goes for XPS laptops from Dell (though the cheaper Inspirons' do have Ryzen offerings). OEMs would still need to engineer proper cooling solutions (which they seem to struggle with), but working with a ~120w 5950x is far more manageable than a 250w+ 12900KS.

[Middcore]

5 minutes ago, BigDamn said:

The real question is, why are OEMs so reluctant to utilize lower power AMD chips? 

 

FUD/payoffs. "Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM..."

[Brian McKee]

1 hour ago, BigDamn said:

The real question is, why are OEMs so reluctant to utilize lower power AMD chips?

Need to wait for that newfangled ryzen platform to mature.

[Imbadatnames]

1 hour ago, Brian McKee said:

Need to wait for that newfangled ryzen platform to mature.

On a workstation? Quicksync, AV1 etc maybe 

[Imbadatnames]

Maybe we should just praise apple for cramming so much performance into such a small TDP. 

[Brian McKee]

7 minutes ago, Imbadatnames said:

On a workstation? Quicksync, AV1 etc maybe 

Tongue was firmly in cheek. I am personally an "enjoyer" of 10th gen intel in my workstation laptop and wish very often that it was a ryzen processor

[jaslion]

23 hours ago, NomBread said:

Well it is a business computer and nobody is buying these to game on. Instead of testing games on both systems they could have tested different benches or work programs to compare the information and I feel like this video is just bias on hp up against the mac studio.

Yes and this is meant for workstation tasks like rendering, compute,...

[Datenschleuder]

Everybody relax - HP just reduced the price "a little" at least for the model I was looking at - August 7 22: $4.279,-, August 8 22: $2.359,-, that's almost 45% off the original asking! See attachement. So let's just sit and wait for christmas - we might get it for free altogether. Stop complaining!

 

I hope this true for Europe too.

 

Simon Strach, Cologne, Germany.

 

P.S.: As prospective engineer I bought an HP-45 in 1973 and later in 1983 an HP-41CX. I still have them, and they still work. Hail to Steve Wozniak!

 

 

 

[kraigschmidt]

Hello! First time post… I’m an independent design consultant using mostly AutoCAD and Adobe products.  

 

I was able to order the same model Linus tested (i9 12900k, 64gb, rtx a2000) for $1400.  I’m pretty space constrained so I really like the small footprint of this machine, even if that comes with some compromises. 

 

[kraigschmidt]

On 7/11/2022 at 10:52 AM, manikyath said:

the mini's are pretty much designed so the case itself is the shroud.

 

it works great on the prodesk/elitedesk DM side, but the Z-mini's really arent as refined as HP seems to think they are.

After seeing this video, I am worried about fan noise. I do NOT want a loud fan-heavy machine.  (I’d get a Mac Studio, but no windows on apple arm, and no autocad on arm either.)

 

What settings can I adjust to keep the system quiet?  (Can I) turn off turbo boost?  I don’t know if that would work, but it did solve a hyperactive fan problem in a dell laptop I had previously.  What else I c/should I do in BIOS or Intel extreme tuning utility?

 

If I turn off the turbo boost and/or other adjustments, is there any benefit to still having an i9? Does an i7 12700k just fit the thermal envelope better?
 

Should I try to cancel/swap down to the i7 12700k?  (That might save me a little more money, but the price is already so good, I’m less concerned about that.)

 

Thanks for any thoughts / advice!

[AdamFromLTT]

26 minutes ago, kraigschmidt said:

After seeing this video, I am worried about fan noise. I do NOT want a loud fan-heavy machine.  (I’d get a Mac Studio, but no windows on apple arm, and no autocad on arm either.)

 

What settings can I adjust to keep the system quiet?  (Can I) turn off turbo boost?  I don’t know if that would work, but it did solve a hyperactive fan problem in a dell laptop I had previously.  What else I c/should I do in BIOS or Intel extreme tuning utility?

 

If I turn off the turbo boost and/or other adjustments, is there any benefit to still having an i9? Does an i7 12700k just fit the thermal envelope better?
 

Should I try to cancel/swap down to the i7 12700k?  (That might save me a little more money, but the price is already so good, I’m less concerned about that.)

 

Thanks for any thoughts / advice!

The system's default fan profile stays very quiet (I'd argue too quiet). Sadly, there is no fan curve adjustment in the HP bios, you can only set a static speed (This video was filmed several months ago and new features may have been added). With CAD and Adobe workloads, you will likely be able to get a lot out of the 12900K as the cooling system can handle short, bursty loads, just don't expect this thing to perform as advertised under anything sustained. But AutoCAD is not heavily threaded, and core clocks have a larger impact on performance, so you realistically won't see a huge difference between the i9 and the i7.

[kraigschmidt]

4 hours ago, AdamFromLTT said:

The system's default fan profile stays very quiet (I'd argue too quiet). Sadly, there is no fan curve adjustment in the HP bios, you can only set a static speed (This video was filmed several months ago and new features may have been added). With CAD and Adobe workloads, you will likely be able to get a lot out of the 12900K as the cooling system can handle short, bursty loads, just don't expect this thing to perform as advertised under anything sustained. But AutoCAD is not heavily threaded, and core clocks have a larger impact on performance, so you realistically won't see a huge difference between the i9 and the i7.

I am *really* kicking myself for not originally choosing the i7 12700k and saving $100.  stupid me just assumed the i9 would be ‘better’. I only discovered later — thank you Linus — that the thermals and cooling in the system are… not good. But that would be fine, if they just topped it out at the i7!
 

Anyway, HP is being really crappy and won’t let me revise my custom order to downgrade to the i7. I can keep the existing order at $1400 (a spectacular price, I think?), or cancel and reorder at whatever the current price is. I think they must use some kind of dynamic pricing algorithm?

 

so unless I happen to see that aggressive price, I’m probably better off sticking with my existing order…?

 

[kraigschmidt]

Also, I can’t find anything online (!?) that actually explains what the following HP BIOS settings (on this z2 mini g9) do, or what effects they have:

System Options

     Performance Control : high / regular / quiet mode 

     Turbo Boost on / off

 

Power Management

     Runtime Power Management

     Extended Idle Power States

 

it seems like Quiet Mode and Turbo Boost / off would probably solve any noisy fan issues, but at what performance cost?  I don’t know! It’s a mystery box!  

 

And then there is Intel Extreming Tuning Utility, which I know nothing about other than that it exists and might allow me to 'tune' the 12900k down into essentially a 12700k?  Maybe?  Anyone have any tips or guidance on that?

[kraigschmidt]

On 11/7/2022 at 12:19 PM, AdamFromLTT said:

The system's default fan profile stays very quiet (I'd argue too quiet). Sadly, there is no fan curve adjustment in the HP bios, you can only set a static speed (This video was filmed several months ago and new features may have been added).

Can you confirm that this Z2 Mini G9 does allow Intel XTU to adjust and save the PL1 (90w), PL2 (241w), and tau (128s) values?  It appears in the original video at about 8:02 that the screen showing XTU has those three fields open and editable, and the other items are grayed back:

 

 

If I can adjust those values down as necessary (maybe even just PL2 to something like 150 or 125, TBD), I can make sure this little machine stays nice and quiet even under load, which is very important to me.  If I can't, then maybe I should get an i7k instead…. Thanks.

 

[AdamFromLTT]

On 11/13/2022 at 3:27 PM, kraigschmidt said:

Can you confirm that this Z2 Mini G9 does allow Intel XTU to adjust and save the PL1 (90w), PL2 (241w), and tau (128s) values?  It appears in the original video at about 8:02 that the screen showing XTU has those three fields open and editable, and the other items are grayed back:

 

 

If I can adjust those values down as necessary (maybe even just PL2 to something like 150 or 125, TBD), I can make sure this little machine stays nice and quiet even under load, which is very important to me.  If I can't, then maybe I should get an i7k instead…. Thanks.

 

Everything that isn't greyed out in XTU should work just fine. 

I wouldn't spend time trying to tune the performance back on the 12900k unless you really struggle with the noise of the machine. The boosting behaviour on the 12900k is done well and will give you as much performance as it can, and in many scenarios that will still be higher than the 12700k.

 

[kraigschmidt]

On 11/15/2022 at 1:24 PM, AdamFromLTT said:

Everything that isn't greyed out in XTU should work just fine. 

I wouldn't spend time trying to tune the performance back on the 12900k unless you really struggle with the noise of the machine. The boosting behaviour on the 12900k is done well and will give you as much performance as it can, and in many scenarios that will still be higher than the 12700k.

That's good to hear; but I do notice that EVERY review with the top-spec config mentions the machine being loud / fan noise.  Obviously they're testing under extended load, but still.  I'd feel a whole lot better knowing it's something I COULD dial back if necessary.

 

Not a single review mentions 'quiet mode' in the BIOS; nor do any discuss the merits of the different processor options with respect to quiet computing with varying workloads.

 

Is it so outlandish to want a quiet computer?  Especially for a chassis style that more likely than not will be sitting on the desk?

 

[Radium_Angel]

59 minutes ago, kraigschmidt said:

That's good to hear; but I do notice that EVERY review with the top-spec config mentions the machine being loud / fan noise.  Obviously they're testing under extended load, but still.  I'd feel a whole lot better knowing it's something I COULD dial back if necessary.

 

Not a single review mentions 'quiet mode' in the BIOS; nor do any discuss the merits of the different processor options with respect to quiet computing with varying workloads.

 

Is it so outlandish to want a quiet computer?  Especially for a chassis style that more likely than not will be sitting on the desk?

 

Loud is highly subjective. I wouldn't take stock in what someone else says is "loud"

Also, assuming HP are not like Dell's Precision workstations, there are software out there that can control fan speeds, so there might be hope yet for you

[kraigschmidt]

On 11/16/2022 at 4:36 PM, Radium_Angel said:

Loud is highly subjective. I wouldn't take stock in what someone else says is "loud"

Also, assuming HP are not like Dell's Precision workstations, there are software out there that can control fan speeds, so there might be hope yet for you

So, just to circle back on this…

 

I got the i9k workstation. It was in fact pretty loud under any load. There is apparently a **very** steep ramp from no-fan to jet-f’ing-engine. 
 

I was able to utilize XTU, to set custom PL1 and PL2 and tau.  But honestly, these didn’t make nearly as much difference as I expected. The fan still spun up and got loud; the adjustments merely allowed me to shorten the duration of the high fan noise.  And even for that they had to be *really* aggressive. 
 

So, I returned the i9k config, and I’m awaiting the i7k config I ordered. I don’t think I’ll notice any big difference, and it was $130 cheaper. 
 

A fan control utility would be a better solution, I think, for noise control?

[kraigschmidt]

On 7/10/2022 at 12:58 PM, AdamFromLTT said:

HP is making some BOLD claims about their Z2 Mini G9 workstations, but can HP’s new workstation match the performance and the equally bold claims of the Mac Studio?
 

 

Hello!  Now that the 13th gen processors are available, I was wondering if the 13700k or 13900k are any better in this z2 mini g9 case?  HP is now selling this exact machine with 13th gen parts.
 

I have my doubts, since the 13th gen has higher thermal and power envelopes, but they are also built on a smaller process, so maybe the efficiency gains would still make a meaningful difference?

 

The 12700k in my machine has PL1=90w and PL2=190w. I can’t find any information on the webs that speaks to how a 13700k or 13900k would perform in this power-limited environment (especially compared to the 12700k).
 

There is one geekbench submission with the 13700k showing roughly 15% performance improvement vs the 12700k. Nice! But, I obviously don’t know if that user has fiddled with the PL1 & PL2. Would the fans spin up more frequently? Is the speed gain worth it or not?

Geekbench z2 mini g9 13700k
 

Perhaps it’s worth doing a test?

[tkitch]

29 minutes ago, kraigschmidt said:

Hello!  Now that the 13th gen processors are available, I was wondering if the 13700k or 13900k are any better in this z2 mini g9 case?  HP is now selling this exact machine with 13th gen parts.
 

I have my doubts, since the 13th gen has higher thermal and power envelopes, but they are also built on a smaller process, so maybe the efficiency gains would still make a meaningful difference?

 

The 12700k in my machine has PL1=90w and PL2=190w. I can’t find any information on the webs that speaks to how a 13700k or 13900k would perform in this power-limited environment (especially compared to the 12700k).
 

There is one geekbench submission with the 13700k showing roughly 15% performance improvement vs the 12700k. Nice! But, I obviously don’t know if that user has fiddled with the PL1 & PL2. Would the fans spin up more frequently? Is the speed gain worth it or not?

Geekbench z2 mini g9 13700k
 

Perhaps it’s worth doing a test?

with the same lackluster cooling, you'd probably get slightly better performance, but it'd still be crippled from what the CPU is capable of doing.

 

it's still a bad buy. 

[kraigschmidt]

17 minutes ago, tkitch said:

with the same lackluster cooling, you'd probably get slightly better performance, but it'd still be crippled from what the CPU is capable of doing.

 

it's still a bad buy. 

When you say bad buy, are you referring to the idea up upgrading the cpu, or the computer itself?  Or both?   

 

If the computer, that ship has sailed, since I already own it.  And honestly, it isn't that bad.  I got the i7, a2000, with thunderbolt port and 64gb ram for $1400.  (HP has some funky dynamic pricing.)  I mean, that's not bad.  I know (now) the system is kind of crippled -- and I would buy something else next time, but I can't be THAT upset at that price, I think?  I really do like the small size, but that definitely comes with some tradeoffs...

 

Anyway, I'm interested in upgrading the cpu and gpu (the nvidia rtx 4000 ada sff, someday, my precious), at some point down the line, because why not?  But I can't seem to find out what the performance will be like.  Including benchmarks *and* thermals/acoustics...  That one Geekbench entry is pretty tantalizing, but it's just one machine, so it is probably unwise to assume it is reliably indicitive?

 

I know the 13700k will be crippled.  But the 12700k is ALSO crippled.  So its really the comparison within the same power limits i'm curious about?

[tkitch]

1 minute ago, kraigschmidt said:

When you say bad buy, are you referring to the idea up upgrading the cpu, or the computer itself?  Or both? 

 

If the computer, that ship has sailed, since I already own it.  And honestly, it isn't that bad.  I got the i7, a2000, with thunderbolt port and 64gb ram for $1400.  (HP has some funky dynamic pricing.)  I mean, that's not bad.  I know (now) the system is kind of crippled -- and I would buy something else next time, but I can't be THAT upset at that price, I think?  I really do like the small size, but that definitely comes with some tradeoffs...

 

Anyway, I'm interested in upgrading the cpu and gpu (the nvidia rtx 4000 ada sff, someday, my precious), at some point down the line, because why not?  But I can't seem to find out what the performance will be like.  Including benchmarks *and* thermals/acoustics...  That one Geekbench entry is pretty tantalizing, but it's just one machine, so it is probably unwise to assume it is reliably indicitive?

You'd probably get (roughly) the IPC generational improvement, since the thermal efficiency wasn't really any better on 13th gen.

 

As for replacing the GPU?  I doubt it'd work, unless you can find something with a compatible cooler to work in that box. 

[kraigschmidt]

40 minutes ago, tkitch said:

You'd probably get (roughly) the IPC generational improvement, since the thermal efficiency wasn't really any better on 13th gen.

 

As for replacing the GPU?  I doubt it'd work, unless you can find something with a compatible cooler to work in that box. 

I thought the 13th gen moved to a smaller fab process?  Doesn't that have efficiency gains that just come along for the ride?  Or am I mistaken?

 

Nvidia recently released an updated version of the gpu that fits in that box.  It's a workstation card, so its really expensive right now, but it ~doubles the performance of the gpu. The A2000 is roughly a 3050, and the 4000 sff is roughly a 3070.  That's a huge improvement.

 

Nvidia rtx 4000 sff

 

Eventually, when the price comes down, it is a drop-in replacement.  SFF fans are salivating over it!

 

Even being thermally crippled, this little 3.5L box will be pretty performant with a 13700k and a ~3070 equivalent gpu...