Germany: Right to "fast" internet law has gone into effect.

[Senzelian]

German citizens now have the right to fast internet. To be specific there needs to be an ISP available now, that has to provide you with at least 10mbps in download and 1.7mbps in upload bandwith for residential internet connections.

 

However, this does not mean that you can make your current ISP deliver more bandwith, unless there is no other ISP available that already delivers at least the specified speed.

 

But in case you live in an area where you have to live with speeds of less than 10 / 1.7mbps you can now contact the federal network agency (Bundesnetzagentur), which will make it their goal to upgrade the network infrastructure.

This is what that process looks like:

 

1. You contact the federal network agency (FNA)
2. The FNA contacts an ISP within 2 months.
3. The ISP now has 1 month to offer a new plan to meet the requirements.
4. If no offer has been made, within 4 months the FNA will require an ISP to provide your household with an internet connection that meets the requirements.
5. The ISP now has 3 months to start building up the necessary infrastructure for the new plan.
6. The new plan should then be offered within the next 3 months to you.

 

That means that between you contacting the FNA and you finally being able to experience your new internet connection, it is possible to take up to 13 months.

 

 

 

 

Quotes

Quote

Das Gesetz sieht vor, dass es bundesweit Zugang zum Festnetz-Internet mit Geschwindigkeiten im Download von mindestens 10 Megabit pro Sekunde und im Upload von 1,7 Megabit pro Sekunde geben muss.

 

 

 

My thoughts

Oh how much I love Germany and its stupid bureaucracy.

 

Germany could be the most technology advanced country on the planet, but decided not to be that for whatever reason. We're happy to forward your money and data through our giant servers in Frankfurt, but we do not want to provide our own citizens with proper internet.

 

The fact that ISPs get away with anything below 100mbps in a country where DE-CIX is constantly pushing for new bandwith records is utterly insane to me.

 

Don't get me wrong, this law is great. But only for a country that's like 10% the size of Germany and has 5% of its gross domestic product. The German government needs to understand that if we want to keep competing with the most technology advanced countries on this planet, then we need to behave like them.

 

The cherry on top is the 13 month upgrade period. It's probably better to just move at this point.

 

 

At least the law will sound funny to all you natively english speaking people:
Telekommunikationsmindestversorgungsverordnung

 

 

 

 

Sources

https://winfuture.de/news,130266.html

[Levent]

Just now, Senzelian said:

10mbps in download and 1.7mbps

Spoiler

As someone who has been stuck on 10/2 for the last 3 years, I cannot begin to think how they came up with that number. ISPs lobbying hard in Germany too?

[Senzelian]

2 minutes ago, Levent said:

ISPs lobbying hard in Germany too?

Only one ISP. The "Deutsche Telekom AG". (DTAG)

They own T-Mobile and are the 6th largest ISP on the globe. Only 3 U.S. ISPs are larger and 2 chinese ones at the top.

 

I assume Vodafone and Unity Media als lobby quite a bit, maybe O2 aswell, but DTAG is the worst.

[Guest]

While 10/2 doesn't sound like alot, and it isn't, there are still regions that are stuck on 2mbits and slower right now. It's stupid but at least it's something

[AlwaysFSX]

25 minutes ago, Senzelian said:

This is what that process looks like:

 

1. You contact the federal network agency (FNA)
2. The FNA contacts an ISP within 2 months.
3. The ISP now has 1 month to offer a new plan to meet the requirements.
4. If no offer has been made, the FNA will require within 4 months one ISP to provide your household with an internet connection that meets the requirements.
5. The ISP now has 3 months to start building up the necessary infrastructure for the new plan.
6. The new plan should then be offered within the next 3 months to you.

 

That means that between you contacting the FNA and you finally being able to experience your new internet connection, it is possible to take up to 13 months.

Yeah this looks pretty accurate for a German timescale of doing something bureaucratic.

[DarithINAbby]

26 minutes ago, Senzelian said:

 

My thoughts

Oh how much I love Germany and its stupid bureaucracy.

 

The fact that ISPs get away with anything below 100mbps in a country where DE-CIX is constantly pushing for new bandwith records is utterly insane to me.

What a strange and otherwise misguided take, so your suggesting Internet should be a RIGHT, it is not. now what it is would be a product a company sells for a price they set and if you don't like that/agree/can't afford it, you can take your business elsewhere.

[AlwaysFSX]

5 minutes ago, DarithINAbby said:

What a strange and otherwise misguided take, so your suggesting Internet should be a RIGHT, it is not. now what it is would be a product a company sells for a price they set and if you don't like that/agree/can't afford it, you can take your business elsewhere.

To excuse ISPs that can quite easily provide decent bandwidth incredibly cheaply, much higher than 10mb/s mind you, is quite a laughable hill to die on? German companies just love doing things with technology about as backwards as they possibly can it seems.

[guitargirl15]

it's like saying, "you have the right to live near a grocery store that sells skim milk, and if no store nearby does, then you can go to the government and force a store nearby to set up supply chains and storage capabilities to provide you with the opportunity to buy skim milk." Nono, you don't need to choose your living locations based on what is available for purchase nearby, and stores may not sell what makes them profit. They *must* sell skim milk, even if you are the only one who will purchase it (or nobody will), because you have a right!

[Senzelian]

10 minutes ago, DarithINAbby said:

What a strange and otherwise misguided take, so your suggesting Internet should be a RIGHT, it is not. now what it is would be a product a company sells for a price they set and if you don't like that/agree/can't afford it, you can take your business elsewhere.

No, I'm suggesting that if ISPs can push 12 terabit through a cluster of servers and switches that consists out of 7 entire buildings and did cost multiple billions of euros, then they should be able to provide at least 80% of the population with fiber - especially when other countries with less money and manpower do that already.

 

The fact that it needs to be a right enforced by the government just shows how bad the situation is.

 

And to say that you should simply "take your business elsewhere" is uttlerly insane and one of the stupidest things I've read the entire year on this forum and I'm sure I've seen at least one person trying to upgrade their toaster with a RTX 3090.

[AlwaysFSX]

11 minutes ago, guitargirl15 said:

it's like saying, "you have the right to live near a grocery store that sells skim milk, and if no store nearby does, then you can go to the government and force a store nearby to set up supply chains and storage capabilities to provide you with the opportunity to buy skim milk." Nono, you don't need to choose your living locations based on what is available for purchase nearby, and stores may not sell what makes them profit. They *must* sell skim milk, even if you are the only one who will purchase it (or nobody will), because you have a right!

The internet has become a utility just like water and electricity, it's pretty essential for the world as time goes on. To not have working service in this day and age in a small, technologically advanced country is a joke. A village there being a couple kilometers away from the next city is not being in the middle of nowhere, it's not hard to implement the infrastructure and use it. Even my village had fast internet.

[wamred]

Wow, 10 mbps is fast now? I understand issues regarding data communication but still that ain't enough chief.

[Alex Atkin UK]

Indeed, the UK were at risk of falling behind in the broadband race and even with our extremely regressive government right now, some of the most remote parts of Scotland will be getting fibre in the next few years through government subsidies.

[Senzelian]

15 minutes ago, guitargirl15 said:

it's like saying, "you have the right to live near a grocery store that sells skim milk, and if no store nearby does, then you can go to the government and force a store nearby to set up supply chains and storage capabilities to provide you with the opportunity to buy skim milk." Nono, you don't need to choose your living locations based on what is available for purchase nearby, and stores may not sell what makes them profit. They *must* sell skim milk, even if you are the only one who will purchase it (or nobody will), because you have a right!

That is an absurd comparison.

 

The government has put 978 million € towards ISPs to build a better infrastructure just this year. As an ISP you cannot choose to take the money and then tell people to simply move if they want faster speeds. 

[DarithINAbby]

17 minutes ago, AlwaysFSX said:

To excuse ISPs that can quite easily provide decent bandwidth incredibly cheaply, much higher than 10mb/s mind you, is quite a laughable hill to die on? German companies just love doing things with technology about as backwards as they possibly can it seems.

at what point did i excuse the ISPs? i was referring to his assertion that the internet is a "right" (yes I know he didnt say those exact words but he implied it)

 

of course i think isp get away with alot, now while I have gigabyte internet I pay a little less then $120 a month that is crazy high and could/should be lower ect

but that is my choice to make.

 

also how do you know any givin isp can "easily provide decent bandwidth incredibly cheaply" maybe the infrastructure in the area isn't in good condition or super old, maybe they have a relatively narrow backbone and they'd rather give more people slower internet (the better of these two choices) then less people faster. Now while this is most likely not the case it could be, and it should be talked about as such since we simply dont know, it isn't hard to use the right words as to not seem combative right from the start and then maybe something useful can come out of the conversation that comes from it.

[Senzelian]

3 minutes ago, DarithINAbby said:

but that is my choice to make.

Self regulating markets don't work. On top of that you could argue both ways. The companies have chosen to sell their product in a socialist democracy, in which the governemnt can step in and regulate. If they don't want it, it's their choice and they could leave the country. 

 

See, this leads to nothing...

[DarithINAbby]

16 minutes ago, Senzelian said:

No, I'm suggesting that if ISPs can push 12 terabit through a cluster of servers and switches that consists out of 7 entire buildings and did cost multiple billions of euros, then they should be able to provide at least 80% of the population with fiber - especially when other countries with less money and manpower do that already.

 

The fact that it needs to be a right enforced by the government just shows how bad the situation is.

 

And to say that you should simply "take your business elsewhere" is uttlerly insane and one of the stupidest things I've read the entire year on this forum and I'm sure I've seen at least one person trying to upgrade their toaster with a RTX 3090.

Wow dude, me saying if you don't like a companies product/price/whatever, you should buy from a different one, is the craziest thing you've heard all year?....... now THAT statement might take the place of craziest

[FliP0x]

58 minutes ago, Senzelian said:

 

 

 

 

My thoughts

Oh how much I love Germany and its stupid bureaucracy.

 

Germany could be the most technology advanced country on the planet, but decided not to be that for whatever reason. We're happy to forward your money and data through our giant servers in Frankfurt, but we do not want to provide our own citizens with proper internet.

 

The fact that ISPs get away with anything below 100mbps in a country where DE-CIX is constantly pushing for new bandwith records is utterly insane to me.

 

Don't get me wrong, this law is great. But only for a country that's like 10% the size of Germany and has 5% of its gross domestic product. The German government needs to understand that if we want to keep competing with the most technology advanced countries on this planet, then we need to behave like them.

 

The cherry on top is the 13 month upgrade period. It's probably better to just move at this point.

 

 

At least the law will sound funny to all you natively english speaking people:
Telekommunikationsmindestversorgungsverordnung

 

 

 

 

Sources

https://winfuture.de/news,130266.html

 

To me it sounds like the complete opposite.

 

While Germany in general has good network speeds, there are rural areas which are still stuck with painfully slow or no internet at all and this regulation aims to give people whose internet connection is stuck in Stone Age at least a fraction of the speeds they deserve In 2023.

 

Obviously it will take time, a year even after you make a claim, because you also can't expect IPSs to suddenly lay kilometers of cables at 1000 different locations overnight.

If consumers file a claim now, they will likely see results within 3-6 months, which I assume will be the average waiting time.

 

I expect the regulations minimum requirements to also change and increase over time.

 

To be blunt, I don't think German consumers have any right to complain, considering the infrastructure they have.

 

Where I am off, I can call myself lucky to have a 50mbit down and 4mbit up connection, which used to be 20 mbit down and 2 bit up just about a year ago and we only got internet at all in 2008.

 

There are still plenty of areas and parts of cities that do not have DSL capabilities, so they are forced to get 4G, which isn't usable half the time because ISPs like to cash in on tourists, sell them dirt cheap data plans (a fraction of what normal consumers pay) and they clog up the 4G network (to the point in which you're lucky to get 1mbit down and 0,2mbit up). A "right for fast internet" would be much appreciated over here.

 

[Avocado Diaboli]

42 minutes ago, DarithINAbby said:

What a strange and otherwise misguided take, so your suggesting Internet should be a RIGHT, it is not. now what it is would be a product a company sells for a price they set and if you don't like that/agree/can't afford it, you can take your business elsewhere.

Internet service these days is pretty much a basic requirement to partake in society, so yeah, by all measures access the internet should be considered a basic human right. And I fail to see how it meaningfully differs from roads and basic utilities that should just be paid for through taxes. The US are a prime example why free market capitalism doesn't work in this sector of local monopolies. There are simply no other businesses you could go to as an alternative.

 

As for the topic itself, Germany is in dire need of overthinking their internet architecture and the way governments and businesses operate online. It's basically stone age at this point. And to think that a country that prides itself in its forward thinking engineering could completely miss the train of the internet revolution is utterly baffling to me. So it's good that they at least have some basic standards in place now. Not that I'd consider those speeds anywhere near acceptable. As a neighbor to Germany's south, my ISPs cheapest available speeds are 200Mbit/s. And while it's comparatively expensive to many other European countries, that's still better. I just checked my ISP and saw that apparently, they're now finally offering fiber up to 10Gbit/s to my apartment complex. I'll have to call them and check if that's really true, because I'd love to step up from the 600Mbit/s I'm currently getting.

[Senzelian]

1 minute ago, DarithINAbby said:

Wow dude, me saying if you don't like a companies product/price/whatever, you should buy from a different one, is the craziest thing you've heard all year?....... now THAT statement might take the place of craziest

You taking this as if it's a 100% true comment is even crazier, especially after I compared it to someone upgrading their toaster with a 3090.

The point of this was to exaggerate. It's a common thing to make a point very clear. The fact that I have to explain that now, makes this probably the craziest comment of all time.
Can you top the craziness?  

[AlwaysFSX]

7 minutes ago, DarithINAbby said:

at what point did i excuse the ISPs? i was referring to his assertion that the internet is a "right" (yes I know he didnt say those exact words but he implied it)

 

of course i think isp get away with alot, now while I have gigabyte internet I pay a little less then $120 a month that is crazy high and could/should be lower ect

but that is my choice to make.

 

also how do you know any givin isp can "easily provide decent bandwidth incredibly cheaply" maybe the infrastructure in the area isn't in good condition or super old, maybe they have a relatively narrow backbone and they'd rather give more people slower internet (the better of these two choices) then less people faster. Now while this is most likely not the case it could be, and it should be talked about as such since we simply dont know, it isn't hard to use the right words as to not seem combative right from the start and then maybe something useful can come out of the conversation that comes from it.

When the government your company operates in dictates how and what service you'll provide the populace, especially when tax funds are directed towards the companies to do as they're told.

 

Villages far from cities don't have thousands and thousands of people living in them, the fiber connections ISPs lay are more than capable of providing more than 10mb/s to 100-500 people. Case in point, my residency in Germany has 400/400 fiber for about €80/mo and it's not anywhere close to the nearest cities. It's a tiny, tiny place with one store and two bakeries. It's entirely possible for Germany to have fast internet everywhere, they just don't want to.

It also took a month to have my internet set up because their bureaucracy is a fucking joke and I can't just plug things in and have my internet turned on remotely. Why? Because fuck trying to do things efficiently as possible, "we need to send a tech out."

[Senzelian]

5 minutes ago, FliP0x said:

To be blunt, I don't think German consumers have any right to complain, considering the infrastructure they have.

Of course there are other countries that have it much worse, but I don't think that's a valid excuse for German internet to not be better. I said this before and I'll say it again, Germany has been in the past and still is one of the leaders in technology and one of the richest countries on the planet. There is no excuse for it to not be much better. We have the money, we have the manpower, we have the technology and we have the need for a faster and more reliable and more modern infrastructure. 

 

And it's not just the internet, traffic aswell! I always tend to look to the Japanese when it comes to such things, because Germany and Japan have been close allies for many dozens of years and we have provided them with a lot of technoligy and yet they're are the ones making use of it and we're left far behind. Japan for example is famous for their trains always being on time. We used to have this here too, but now our train system is nothing but a joke. Germany simply needs to do better.

[DarithINAbby]

7 minutes ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

I'd love to step up from the 600Mbit/s I'm currently getting.

just curious, how much faster would you go if given the choice? I personally have 940 U/D and I find it to be about as fast as i'd need (for now) anything other then a 50+Gb file downloads with in 5-15 mins, pretty much can go to the bathroom then make a coffee, and small snack and it is done

[Senzelian]

4 minutes ago, AlwaysFSX said:

It also took a month to have my internet set up because their bureaucracy is a fucking joke

I agree.

 

The "Deutsche Glasfaser" ("German Fibre", an ISP) famously bought a fax machine to be able to request funds for building up infrastructure. The CEO said, that at this point it takes longer to request and wait for the funds and then build the infrastructure with those funds, than it would be to simply take a loan and build it yourself and pay the loan back.

 

A FUCKING FAX MACHINE! HOLY SHIT...

[DarithINAbby]

12 minutes ago, Senzelian said:

You taking this as if it's a 100% true comment is even crazier, especially after I compared it to someone upgrading their toaster with a 3090.

The point of this was to exaggerate. It's a common thing to make a point very clear. The fact that I have to explain that now, makes this probably the craziest comment of all time.
Can you top the craziness?  

ya I get the exaggeration part, i could have worded my reply better for sure, its that you took issue with me suggesting "take your business elsewhere" that is what people do, when we don't like something, say a restaurant we loved the steak at all of a sudden changes where they get meat from and it no longer is the same, and worse. we simply order something else and/or go to a different place, the metaphor might not work 100% but you should get my point

[AlwaysFSX]

2 minutes ago, Senzelian said:

I agree.

 

The "Deutsche Glasfaser" ("German Fibre", an ISP) famously bought a fax machine to be able to request funds for building up infrastructure. The CEO said, that at this point it takes longer to request and wait for the funds and then build the infrastructure with those funds, than it would be to simply take a loan and build it yourself and pay the loan back.

 

A FUCKING FAX MACHINE! HOLY SHIT...

Hah, that's great in a really sad way.

 

My building has Telekom and the service is super stable but customer support is run by a group of morons. Apparently I needed a tech sent out to install (ie: see I plugged two cables in correctly) the router and enable service in the network cabinet (this could be done remotely, Germany). I sat on my front steps for 8 hours waiting for the guy to show up only to be told by support that he said the lock to the cabinet was broken. Which he never saw.. because he never showed up.. because it was in the basement behind me.

 

They said it'd take a week to get a new lock from their warehouse and another week to send a new tech out. Absolutely insane.

2 minutes ago, DarithINAbby said:

ya I get the exaggeration part, i could have worded my reply better for sure, its that you took issue with me suggesting "take your business elsewhere" that is what people do, when we don't like something, say a restaurant we loved the steak at all of a sudden changes where they get meat from and it no longer is the same, and worse. we simply order something else and/or go to a different place, the metaphor might not work 100% but you should get my point

Which would be awesome if you could do that in Germany but unfortunately you can't. Moving is a huge PITA and incredibly expensive and you're still having the same problems with the ISPs. Hence why they're being given money to sort the problem out correctly.