Opinion: This fall is going to be the most exciting time for pc builders EVER

[Deadpool2onBlu-Ray]

Think about it for a second. The potential for ETH 2.0, Zen 4, Raptor Lake, Nvidia LoveLace, Intel GPUs.... ACTUAL COMPETITION. Conservative estimates are saying 4000 series for Nvidia (LoveLace) is going to be 40-50 percent faster across the range of cards. Some leakers are saying even more. Apparently the 80ti/90 replacement is over 100 percent faster.... I know that seems impossible, but 5nm is no joke. This will be happening at the same time as crypto crashing and people selling off a crap ton of old 30 series cards (most likely, we will see). It is a fallacy that there aren't very many 30 series gpus... There are more produced that you can likely fathom. If ETH 2.0 actually goes to proof of stake, its going to be MADNESS. There will be 3060tis for 300$. People do not realize how many cards are out there that miners are hoarding. I have seen it first hand in person. Most of the people in front of me at Microcenter don't even realize gpu's are for gaming. It was so crazy last year that I saw soccer moms, sneaker heads, etc. just looking to buy a gpu because it was the "thing to do", "hot commodity", etc. 

 

This isn't even taking into account Raptor Lake and Zen 4. Alder lake is absolutely MONSTROUS. Remember how hype the 5900x was at launch? It has since been eclipsed in a lot of productivity and pretty much virtually every gaming benchmark by the freaking i5 12600k. Not even the 12700k or 12900k mind you. A $250 (microcenter) chip is beating a chip that is currently $450 and was hard to find in stock at $550 and scalped for $700 as recently as last year. Let that sink in. Yes, the 5900x is more power efficient and beats the 12600k in a number of different usage scenarios (3d rendering etc.). But its $200 more! It gets SLAPPED in a lot of benchmarks. If you compare the 5900x to the more fair fight price wise (the 12700k), it's even worse. The 12700k DUNKS on the 5900x pretty much universally. Don't even get me started on the 12600k vs 5600x. I legitimately do not understand why the 5600x is recommended for new builds. I understand if you already have an am4 mobo, but otherwise, it is literally irrelevant. The 12600k, its competitor, is legitimately 50% better at certain tasks, especially productivity. Think about that. 50%, IN ONE GENERATION. Everyone hypes up the 5600x so much, and I agree, it was and is a good chip, but these new Alder lake ones are freaking ridiculous if you can get a good price on a LGA 1700 board and ddr4. 

 

Now the point of this post isn't to crap on AMD, my second system is an amd system. Because there is something lurking in the shadows. Zen4. I fully expect Zen 4 to be absolutely ridiculous with the smaller node size. I can see an IPC improvement of like 30% from Zen 3. On top of using less power. Now think about those chips coming out at the SAME TIME intel is DOUBLING their E Core counts on their whole stack. The productivity gap will widen but Zen 4 will demolish intel in single threaded and gaming. Particularly, I expect the 6950x or whatever its called to dunk on the 13900k or whatever. But on the lower end..... another story. How can a 6 core 12 thread 6600x or whatever compare to a 14 core 20 thread 13600k? That is not even taking into account the likely ~10% ipc increase as well. It can't. That is how. This fall is going to be INSANE. Amd and intel are going to have to compete for price, now more than ever. Both platforms will be competitive. They will each have their advantages. So many people are going to be looking to do full system redo's with PCIE5 and DDR5. This will be happening at the same freaking time Nvidia is going to shake up the whole status quo with cards that are more like two generational upgrades in one. We are used to MAX 25-30 Percent speed improvements. I think its going to be more like double-triple that. I might sound insane, but there a lot of reasons to think that. Yes they will be more expensive across the board, but price/performance won't change. 

[DavidKalinowski]

and this is when I build my second hand monster that will last me 10+ years lol. for reals, the last computer I built with all new parts was a core 2 duo based system. I upgraded it about 4-years ago with a Q6600 off ebay and an SSD. I replaced it with a system my work retired, an i5 3450 I moved the GPU and SSD over to it. My old Q6600 system still runs just fine, only reason I replaced it was because I got the work system for 25$USD I'll gladly snatch up used parts for cheap this christmas

[Deadpool2onBlu-Ray]

1 hour ago, DavidKalinowski said:

and this is when I build my second hand monster that will last me 10+ years lol. for reals, the last computer I built with all new parts was a core 2 duo based system. I upgraded it about 4-years ago with a Q6600 off ebay and an SSD. I replaced it with a system my work retired, an i5 3450 I moved the GPU and SSD over to it. My old Q6600 system still runs just fine, only reason I replaced it was because I got the work system for 25$USD I'll gladly snatch up used parts for cheap this christmas

I agree. It'll be a great time 

[CT854]

1 hour ago, Ryan829 said:

Apparently the 80ti/90 replacement is over 100 percent faster.... I know that seems impossible, but 5nm is no joke.

Worth pointing out that generational improvements for GPUs rarely, if ever, eclipse 20% over their previous gen equivalent. I know you'll get back to this later so...

 

1 hour ago, Ryan829 said:

If ETH 2.0 actually goes to proof of stake, its going to be MADNESS.

If.

 

1 hour ago, Ryan829 said:

I legitimately do not understand why the 5600x is recommended for new builds. I understand if you already have an am4 mobo, but otherwise, it is literally irrelevant. The 12600k, its competitor, is legitimately 50% better at certain tasks, especially productivity. Think about that. 50%, IN ONE GENERATION. Everyone hypes up the 5600x so much, and I agree, it was and is a good chip, but these new Alder lake ones are freaking ridiculous if you can get a good price on a LGA 1700 board and ddr4. 

Teething issues had people sticking to a more mature platform. Less relevant now, but definitely relevant around launch. The bigger sticking point is the fact that the costs of adapting LGA 1700 is more baked into the motherboard itself, making the chips seem a lot more appealing on paper before you actually assemble the parts list. Add power efficiency concerns for people (whether they have a legitimate reason to worry about this or not) and the tandem promotion of the maligned Windows 11 alongside Alder Lake, and you have... reasons people are hesitant to go straight to LGA 1700.

 

1 hour ago, Ryan829 said:

-cpu snip-

I agree with the optimism with CPU competition. Hats off to AMD for pushing Ryzen so far ahead earlier, and props to Intel for actually responding in kind. But, again, the platform adoption costs are certainly a consideration.

 

1 hour ago, Ryan829 said:

So many people are going to be looking to do full system redo's with PCIE5 and DDR5.

PCIe 5.0 is pretty pointless unless you do file transfer-heavy tasks since PCIe 4.0 GPUs barely saturate the PCIe 3.0 bus as is. Some people will catch the upgrade bug, but... that always happens when something new and shiny come out. Don't think it's as many people as you may think, though. This is of course assuming that next-gen GPUs don't go anywhere near PCIe 4.0 bandwidth limits which... I don't know if I have a reason to believe it will.  DDR5 pricing also has to come down for people to actually want to adopt it beyond crème de la crème enthusiasts.

 

1 hour ago, Ryan829 said:

This will be happening at the same freaking time Nvidia is going to shake up the whole status quo with cards that are more like two generational upgrades in one. We are used to MAX 25-30 Percent speed improvements. I think its going to be more like double-triple that. I might sound insane, but there a lot of reasons to think that. Yes they will be more expensive across the board, but price/performance won't change. 

Okay, we get back to this point. You say you have a lot of reasons to think that Ampere to Lovelace will see triple typical generational improvements. What are those reasons? Genuinely curious. I don't think I've seen a single convincing argument beyond "greymon said so on twitter" so I really do want to know what's giving people so much confidence that this is the case.

[D1D01]

Biding my time here with a Ryzen 7 2700X. Either I will be able to get a 5900/5950X eventually very cheap and it goes in my x570 Board no problem, or I will go for LGA 1700 probably with i5 12600k.

[Blademaster91]

4 hours ago, Ryan829 said:

Conservative estimates are saying 4000 series for Nvidia (LoveLace) is going to be 40-50 percent faster across the range of cards. Some leakers are saying even more. Apparently the 80ti/90 replacement is over 100 percent faster.... I know that seems impossible, but 5nm is no joke.

A 40-50 percent increase is a lot, that usually doesn't happen with GPU's but I'd like to see at least a 40% increase with the 4000 series as those are rumored to have higher power consumption than the 3000 series.

4 hours ago, Ryan829 said:

This will be happening at the same time as crypto crashing and people selling off a crap ton of old 30 series cards (most likely, we will see).

I'm not very optimistic about crypto crashing, as GPU prices haven't gone down to MSRP, and because of cost inflation of just about everything I doubt crypto would crash, but who knows with how volatile it is.

4 hours ago, Ryan829 said:

If ETH 2.0 actually goes to proof of stake

If it does, but wasn't ETH supposed to go proof of stake like a year ago?

4 hours ago, Ryan829 said:

Now the point of this post isn't to crap on AMD, my second system is an amd system. Because there is something lurking in the shadows. Zen4. I fully expect Zen 4 to be absolutely ridiculous with the smaller node size. I can see an IPC improvement of like 30% from Zen 3. On top of using less power. Now think about those chips coming out at the SAME TIME intel is DOUBLING their E Core counts on their whole stack. The productivity gap will widen but Zen 4 will demolish intel in single threaded and gaming. Particularly, I expect the 6950x or whatever its called to dunk on the 13900k or whatever. But on the lower end..... another story. How can a 6 core 12 thread 6600x or whatever compare to a 14 core 20 thread 13600k? That is not even taking into account the likely ~10% ipc increase as well. It can't. That is how. This fall is going to be INSANE. Amd and intel are going to have to compete for price, now more than ever. Both platforms will be competitive. They will each have their advantages. So many people are going to be looking to do full system redo's with PCIE5 and DDR5. This will be happening at the same freaking time Nvidia is going to shake up the whole status quo with cards that are more like two generational upgrades in one. We are used to MAX 25-30 Percent speed improvements. I think its going to be more like double-triple that. I might sound insane, but there a lot of reasons to think that. Yes they will be more expensive across the board, but price/performance won't change. 

I personally haven't been very exited for GPU's, because prices have gotten way out of hand, and I doubt prices are going to go back down to what they were with the RTX 3000 and RX 6000 launch MSRP's. But I am looking forward to Zen 4, it's rumored to have an iGPU, and the IPC improvement is apparently competitive with Intel. I think the E-core configuration is interesting on Intel 12th gen, but also weird on desktop, unless E-cores are optimized to do background tasks I haven't really seen much point in having weaker cores, compared to having 10 or 12 performance cores.

The competition with CPU's is very exciting and its awesome when Intel and AMD put out their best so the consumer wins.

[adarw]

eth 2.0 has been coming for last 7 years, people still hype it but the truth is eth is a failure.

[8tg]

I stopped caring about desktop builds and just spent thousands of dollars on audio equipment and vintage thinkpads instead.

Like hey man, an RTX 3080 is cool and all, but I have multiple pairs of 1000$+ iems and a library of flacs/DSD music to waste all my money on.

Since that’s all these tech hobbies really are, interesting ways to throw away thousands of dollars.

 

The only desktop stuff I still even do is slowly putting together, well not really “putting together”, a pc of entirely new old stock high end parts from the haswell era.

Just so I can have a pile of parts new in their box that would’ve been super cool in 2014/2015 when I first got into building my own PCs. I’m not actually going to build the system though.

 

[Bitter]

[TetraSky]

Eth miners will just move to a different coin to mine, they won't be selling off all their GPUs they are hoarding.

I'll believe the price drop when it happens.

[Arika]

13 minutes ago, TetraSky said:

Eth miners will just move to a different coin to mine, they won't be selling off all their GPUs they are hoarding.

I'll believe the price drop when it happens.

This is something I think people don't really think about (or chose to ignore). Eth going PoS will not stop people mining and flood the market with used GPUs, they will just move to the next profitable PoW coin. They won't just "give up" because one coin changed.

[Bitter]

1 minute ago, Arika S said:

This is something I think people don't really think about (or chose to ignore). Eth going PoS will not stop people mining and flood the market with used GPUs, they will just move to the next profitable PoW coin. They won't just "give up" because one coin changed.

I think some people will drop out but it probably won't be a flood, however I suspect less people will be getting into it and there will be less demand with lower profits leading to lower incentive to invest more or start.

[BlueChinchillaEatingDorito]

8 hours ago, D1D01 said:

Biding my time here with a Ryzen 7 2700X. Either I will be able to get a 5900/5950X eventually very cheap and it goes in my x570 Board no problem, or I will go for LGA 1700 probably with i5 12600k.

Get on my level.   12th gen looks tempting to me... until I realize I'll have to carry over a HD 7850...

[D1D01]

12 hours ago, 8tg said:

I stopped caring about desktop builds and just spent thousands of dollars on audio equipment and vintage thinkpads instead.

Like hey man, an RTX 3080 is cool and all, but I have multiple pairs of 1000$+ iems and a library of flacs/DSD music to waste all my money on.

Since that’s all these tech hobbies really are, interesting ways to throw away thousands of dollars.

 

The only desktop stuff I still even do is slowly putting together, well not really “putting together”, a pc of entirely new old stock high end parts from the haswell era.

Just so I can have a pile of parts new in their box that would’ve been super cool in 2014/2015 when I first got into building my own PCs. I’m not actually going to build the system though.

 

Wow Braah, I dig it. Like the 'conceptual' Build. Cool Man, very Cool.

[D1D01]

5 hours ago, BlueChinchillaEatingDorito said:

Get on my level.   12th gen looks tempting to me... until I realize I'll have to carry over a HD 7850...

Does that pose a problem? (excuse my potential ignorance)

[Deadpool2onBlu-Ray]

21 hours ago, D1D01 said:

Biding my time here with a Ryzen 7 2700X. Either I will be able to get a 5900/5950X eventually very cheap and it goes in my x570 Board no problem, or I will go for LGA 1700 probably with i5 12600k.

The 12600k is literally dope for the price 

[IPD]

IMHO, the greatest time for PC builders was the debut of the 4600Ti.  1600x1200 gaming wasn't viable at all before that.

[Deadpool2onBlu-Ray]

20 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

A 40-50 percent increase is a lot, that usually doesn't happen with GPU's but I'd like to see at least a 40% increase with the 4000 series as those are rumored to have higher power consumption than the 3000 series.

I'm not very optimistic about crypto crashing, as GPU prices haven't gone down to MSRP, and because of cost inflation of just about everything I doubt crypto would crash, but who knows with how volatile it is.

If it does, but wasn't ETH supposed to go proof of stake like a year ago?

I personally haven't been very exited for GPU's, because prices have gotten way out of hand, and I doubt prices are going to go back down to what they were with the RTX 3000 and RX 6000 launch MSRP's. But I am looking forward to Zen 4, it's rumored to have an iGPU, and the IPC improvement is apparently competitive with Intel. I think the E-core configuration is interesting on Intel 12th gen, but also weird on desktop, unless E-cores are optimized to do background tasks I haven't really seen much point in having weaker cores, compared to having 10 or 12 performance cores.

The competition with CPU's is very exciting and its awesome when Intel and AMD put out their best so the consumer wins.

I think GPU prices are going to land somewhere in the middle. They won't be as good as 3000 series MSRP prices but I don't think they will be as bad as like 1000$ 3070tis and 1400$ 3080 12gb. That was just nvidia taking advantage of the global situation as well as AIB's. Nvidia WANTS to come out with a good "mid range" 500-600 card. They do. There is a huge market for them. I think the 4060ti will be excellent. It won't be 399, but if its truly 50% faster, who cares? The rumors seem to think such a generational uplift because of the 5nm process and the increase in power consumption. I guess we will see this fall. The cpu wars have been great. Can you guys imagine a chip like the 12600k YEARS ago back when intel kept giving us 4 core 8 thread 14nm+++++++++++++ chips for what seemed like FOREVER? Alder lake is the best intel has been since the 2500k over 10 years ago, and it's all thanks to AMD. 

[Deadpool2onBlu-Ray]

6 minutes ago, IPD said:

IMHO, the greatest time for PC builders was the debut of the 4600Ti.  1600x1200 gaming wasn't viable at all before that.

Before my time I am afraid. I started building around "Haswell" I think it was called? I had an i5 4590 on a Z series board. Ahh young stupid me. 

[IPD]

3 minutes ago, Ryan829 said:

Before my time I am afraid. I started building around "Haswell" I think it was called? I had an i5 4590 on a Z series board. Ahh young stupid me. 

And that's why every time I hear something referred to as "greatest ever" - I take it with a grain of salt.

 

P.S.

I had an Alienware with a 4600Ti.  I can't even express how epic it was compared that everything that came before.  It was like going from N64 graphics to PS4 graphics; it was that stark.  Or if you will, going from a GTX 650 (or GT 1030) to an RTX 3090.  Words are inadequate.

[Deadpool2onBlu-Ray]

7 minutes ago, IPD said:

And that's why every time I hear something referred to as "greatest ever" - I take it with a grain of salt.

 

P.S.

I had an Alienware with a 4600Ti.  I can't even express how epic it was compared that everything that came before.  It was like going from N64 graphics to PS4 graphics; it was that stark.  Or if you will, going from a GTX 650 (or GT 1030) to an RTX 3090.  Words are inadequate.

The closest thing I can relate to is the iphone 5s. It was the first 64 bit phone chip and it was BLAZING FAST. It also had this magic feature called "touchid". My brother got one and I used it and it was literally like holding the future in my hand. It was easily 3-4 times faster than the crap android I had at the time. LG G2 or something maybe? 

[Blue4130]

5 hours ago, IPD said:

IMHO, the greatest time for PC builders was the debut of the 4600Ti.  1600x1200 gaming wasn't viable at all before that.

For me it was Mid-late 1990's. Voodoo, Riva etc. 3D was finally taking off and it was a MAJOR step up compared to 2d games. Unreal Tournament, Doom, Quake.

 

I miss my Voodoo 5 5500. That was a game changer.

[D1D01]

6 hours ago, Ryan829 said:

The 12600k is literally dope for the price 

Yes I'm far more likely to go Intel right now - However I'm doing fine enough and can wait to see AMD's next move, which will have to be interesting! Like you say, super exciting times ahead!

[IPD]

17 hours ago, Blue4130 said:

For me it was Mid-late 1990's. Voodoo, Riva etc. 3D was finally taking off and it was a MAJOR step up compared to 2d games. Unreal Tournament, Doom, Quake.

 

I miss my Voodoo 5 5500. That was a game changer.

I highly coveted the Voodoo 5 6000.  I was gaming on a POS Hercules card at the time.

[Blue4130]

57 minutes ago, IPD said:

I highly coveted the Voodoo 5 6000.  I was gaming on a POS Hercules card at the time.

As did I, but since they never officially released it, I settled on the 5500. BUT... A crazy Russian has recreated, built and is selling 6000s currently. 

 

https://www.thefpsreview.com/2021/02/21/3dfxs-legendary-voodoo-5-6000-graphics-card-is-back-and-better-than-ever/