Apple & Google under fire for outragous Appstore tariff

[divito]

I think the commission model hurts people's understanding. Everyone takes the commission model as "skimming" from the actual developer, when it's generally more advantageous for small to medium developers to have that system in place, than deal with a hybrid of fixed charges and usage charges.

 

Sure, of the small amount transactions, you're losing 30%; but on the flip side, if you were forced a flat monthly fee whether you get transactions or not, the model would probably sink some developers pretty fast. 

[Bombastinator]

2 hours ago, poochyena said:

no, you are talking about retail profit, i'm talking about whole-selling or marketplace costs. For most non-food/perishable items, a retailer will want at least 50% profit. If you have an item you make and you sell it for $10, then Walmart won't buy it from you unless you sell it to them for $5 or less.

But yes, some things, retailers will buy whole-sale for less than 50% profit margin. Video game discs they make less than 50% margin, specifically new games, but the game owners make less than 50% margin after all the other fees are included.

 

Anyways, is 30% a lot? Yes. Is it an unnaturally huge amount that can only exist due to anti-competitive practices? No.

I don't understand comments like this. What do you mean it won't "a dent in their business"? It absolutely will. I just don't understand why ever single time apple or google is sued someone comes in to mention how, relative to their income/profit/etc/ its a small amount. So what?

So Walmart is a wholesaler to you?  Not getting this “no” as your example basically agrees with my statement.  There can be numerous steps in wholesaling.  A miner digs metal ore out of the ground, sells the ore to a smelter who smelts it and sells ingots to a rolling mill who sells rolled steel who sells the steel rolls to a company making… say computer cases, who stamp them and screw them together and paint them and the sells them to a retailer who sells the pallet of items individually at retail. That’s 5 levels of wholesaler, before retail. The retail buyer may even be a scalper who then sells it on eBay, so one more. It’s common. Each one does some sort of value added to the ore, and each one gets paid. Any of these steps may have a different margin.  

[Bombastinator]

There is a thing I have been noticing: apple seems to take heat for stuff other companies do worse.  Airtags is one.  There are a couple other very similar things to AirTags that have had all the problems AirTags are being complained about but even worse because there was never a chance that someone would be informed that it was going on.  AirTags  isn’t the most dangerous of these systems it’s the least dangerous. One of them is tile. I watched tile do so much good once though that I wonder if the things can be fixed instead of removed.  I had a friend who had a mother with Alzheimer’s who would repetitively lose her purse and was repetitively traumatized by it.  Seeing an octogenarian reduced to a blubbering mess is not a good thing.  And I wasn’t even the person’s child.  Must have been worse for them.  Tiles allowed the purse to be hunted down and found when it was lost.  It was magical. 

[RejZoR]

4 hours ago, divito said:

I think the commission model hurts people's understanding. Everyone takes the commission model as "skimming" from the actual developer, when it's generally more advantageous for small to medium developers to have that system in place, than deal with a hybrid of fixed charges and usage charges.

 

Sure, of the small amount transactions, you're losing 30%; but on the flip side, if you were forced a flat monthly fee whether you get transactions or not, the model would probably sink some developers pretty fast. 

And the "entry" fee for developers ensures you come in with intention to make something worthwhile and not just produce any trash and submit it basically for free (which on Google play $25 one time fee is essentially zero cost for scammers). It's why GooglePlay is filled with so much worthless copycat crap where App Store is pretty tame in comparison. Some whine over it as observed in this thread but seem to just entirely miss the point of it. It keeps order to a higher degree than Google's approach.

[Stahlmann]

6 hours ago, poochyena said:

I just don't understand why ever single time apple or google is sued someone comes in to mention how, relative to their income/profit/etc/ its a small amount. So what?

Because companies like Apple or Google have so much money that you won't achieve anything with a fine. They just don't care. Of course they will appeal and if it's only for trying to keep their "we're the good guys" masqerade. But financially they could just pay and be done with it. They probably wouldn't even notice the money is gone.

[mr moose]

11 hours ago, poochyena said:

Seriously 30% is outrageous? How laughable. Retail starts at 50%. Here is an article I found with the most direct relevance, cost of a $60 game disc

https://latimesblogs.latimes.com/entertainmentnewsbuzz/2010/02/anatomy-of-a-60-dollar-video-game.html

I'm all for lowering the fee, but don't come out acting like 30% is some crazy fee. Its a big improvement over selling discs through retail. Anyways, selling android games on your own platform is always an option. Nutaku appears to be doing very well with their android games, despite not being on the google play store, for example.

Product markup and transaction fees are not the same thing.   

[darknessblade]

11 hours ago, Donut417 said:

But the state will charge you a higher fee if you choose to pay with plastic vs cash, the city does the same with what ever you need to pay with them, they have a fee that they charge. Apple is just charging a fee to handle the payments. Its called the cost of doing businesses. Dont like their policies, dont sell on their store. Case and point. Sams Club at least at the last time I shopped their didnt take Visa Credit, because the fees were too much. If the fees are too much then dont sell on the Apple store. 

 

Which is why I said maybe they can make a compromise by adding 3rd party stores or side loading. All of which does not pay Apple fees and its not Apple's problem if your device gets messed up or you get scammed. 

And yet in the city of Rome you can still choose WHAT STORES you buy your stuff from

 

On apple this is not possible, it is only their way or the highway.

 

and this is exactly the issue.

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Any argument of apple only owning 27% of the global market does not work as a argument, as this is for 1 country only at the moment

 

and in that country they have over 47% of the market share

https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/netherlands

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You really think you know better than a entity that protects consumers.

By saying apple should be allowed to do this?

But i don't blame you for never having known any form of consumer protection ever.

Which we people in the EU enjoy quite a lot.

[Dracarris]

Boy I really hope someone will finally drag console makers to court for making games unnecessarily expensive with their 30% (?) cut, 5-figures SDK access cost and so on. But sure, paying 100$ annually for the iOS SDK is outrageous.

[poochyena]

7 hours ago, Stahlmann said:

Because companies like Apple or Google have so much money that you won't achieve anything with a fine. They just don't care. Of course they will appeal and if it's only for trying to keep their "we're the good guys" masqerade. But financially they could just pay and be done with it. They probably wouldn't even notice the money is gone.

They just don't care? You think two companies with around a 2 trillion dollar market cap got to that market value by not caring about money? They are going to fight tooth and nail to not pay this fine.

[Stahlmann]

5 minutes ago, poochyena said:

They just don't care? You think two companies with around a 2 trillion dollar market cap got to that market value by not caring about money? They are going to fight tooth and nail to not pay this fine.

Of course they didn't get to the state they're in now with that mentality. And i did say they will appeal. But financially this won't have any significant impact. And as it won't have a financial impact in won't have any other impact in their practices.

[poochyena]

2 hours ago, Stahlmann said:

Of course they didn't get to the state they're in now with that mentality. And i did say they will appeal. But financially this won't have any significant impact. And as it won't have a financial impact in won't have any other impact in their practices.

They wouldn't fight the case if it had no significant impact.

[mr moose]

14 hours ago, Dracarris said:

Boy I really hope someone will finally drag console makers to court for making games unnecessarily expensive with their 30% (?) cut, 5-figures SDK access cost and so on. But sure, paying 100$ annually for the iOS SDK is outrageous.

 

I wish the laws were upheld across the entire industry.  Locking down hardware and monopolizing is shit behavior regardless who does it.

[pas008]

they both should be divided up

both practice anti trust, hurt consumers, taxes, and governments, they have too much money and power

 

[RejZoR]

3 hours ago, pas008 said:

they both should be divided up

both practice anti trust, hurt consumers, taxes, and governments, they have too much money and power

 

So, we should punish Apple (or any other company) for being too successful? Stop mixing up being angry over them not paying taxes and demanding things from them because you looked up their net worth on Wikipedia. If they released shit products, they wouldn't be rolling in money. But they make outstanding products, their service is outstanding and if people hated some aspect of it so much, they'd simply not buy them anymore. They aren't THAT locked down or monopolized on the market as all you are so desperately trying to present. I hated everything about Google. So I ditched it entirely and went with Apple because that was the only alternative to Google's data hoarding shenanigans. I still don't like some things they do, but iPhone is just a delivery vehicle for 3rd party services that I use and aren't from Google or Apple. And for which I haven't paid Apple a cent actually. I've had Netflix from before and Apple didn't get a cent from me. Same with Curiosity Stream. My paid for mail provider as well. Apple hasn't seen a cent from my yearly subscription to it. And the same for my cloud storage provider. I bought it before and just connected to the service on my iPhone. And it has been this way for years because I had those services on Android already while in transition of phasing out use of Google. Apple's requirement that you can buy service within the app doesn't sound unreasonable and when it's done this way, they can charge commission for it. For most part you can go to service directly and pay there. If you don't have that and you entirely depend on App Store for delivery and payment, then that commission makes even more sense. You're using their storefront and their store services to do it. If you don't like it, you can always go with Android platform for which everyone brags how it has 70% of the world's market share. Until that number becomes inconvenient and they start "but Apple has 80% market share in US". You people just ALWAYS do this. Rely on sideloading only and your own payment processing and let me know how your business is going from those 100% profits that you get from every sale while not being present on GooglePlay at all. I can tell you right away that you'd be doing better even if you have to pay 30% cut to the storefront for every sale you make.

[Blademaster91]

21 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

So, we should punish Apple (or any other company) for being too successful?

No, it isn't about a company being successful, both apple and google hurt their consumers, get off with anti-consumer tactics, any lawsuit or fine these companies get doesn't hurt them at all, the fine gets paid and they keep screwing consumers over with less control over the hardware.

[mecarry30]

The recent threads about Apple's cut make me happy that PC enthusiasts aren't the ones in power and those making decisions, trying to make everything open because mUh fReEdOmS.

[LAwLz]

Good.

With a bit of luck this will result in Apple and Google lowering their fees.

 

Say what you want about Microsoft and their store and their execution, but I think the things they have announced regarding their Microsoft Store are excellent. There is a lot to be said for their execution, but I feel like when it comes to their store they got the right ideas.

Having more openness and choice for users and developers is very important, and I think that the world will become a better place if we see some more regulations regarding app stores in the near future. Sure, these massive companies like Apple and Google will make less money, but I am fine with that sacrifice if it benefits pretty much everyone else.

[RejZoR]

3 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

No, it isn't about a company being successful, both apple and google hurt their consumers, get off with anti-consumer tactics, any lawsuit or fine these companies get doesn't hurt them at all, the fine gets paid and they keep screwing consumers over with less control over the hardware.

Well, it seems that way. Dictating how closed ecosystems that were entirely created by the owner is beyond moronic. They made it, they should be allowed to do whatever the F they want with it. I treat them the same way I'd treat it if it was my company and if I was the owner of Apple I sure as hell wouldn't want some random clowns dictating me how I should run my successful company and how I should make or design my products and services. Criticizing Apple for not paying taxes is however, but that's not the same or related thing.

 

But people like to mix it all together and use whatever lame excuse to take a swing at the company. Be it market share, their net worth, not paying taxes, rabid hamsters or ecology. They'll just always find something to bitch about, be it actually justified or not.

[darknessblade]

1 minute ago, RejZoR said:

Well, it seems that way. Dictating how closed ecosystems that were entirely created by the owner is beyond moronic. They made it, they should be allowed to do whatever the F they want with it. I treat them the same way I'd treat it if it was my company

And Yet YOU create tools to enable hidden settings for software, change "hidden" browser settings, change video games, trough means the DEVS/creator of said software did not intend to be used.

 

What is the difference between YOU making a tool like that.

 

And a Consumer protection agency demanding apple to change it?

 

Are you 100% anti-consumer rights?

[RejZoR]

10 minutes ago, darknessblade said:

And Yet YOU create tools to enable hidden settings for software, change "hidden" browser settings, change video games, trough means the DEVS/creator of said software did not intend to be used.

 

What is the difference between YOU making a tool like that.

 

And a Consumer protection agency demanding apple to change it?

 

Are you 100% anti-consumer rights?

You create tools within API's and feature sets that are supported by the vendor itself. Are you 100% clueless? Or are you just acting like it? Apple doesn't allow any of that and some people literally just want that. Something that's same on every single iPhone. If you want 300 billion tweaks, custom ROM's and sideloading, then simply buy Android. Jesus F christ, how hard is it? It's why I always laugh at people who use JailBroken phones. They go out of their way to fiddle with unnecessarily overcomplicated nonsense just to enable few dumb hacks. Like, WHY!? Just get a frigging Android.

[darknessblade]

9 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

You create tools within API's and feature sets that are supported by the vendor itself. Are you 100% clueless? Or are you just acting like it? Apple doesn't allow any of that and some people literally just want that. Something that's same on every single iPhone. If you want 300 billion tweaks, custom ROM's and sideloading, then simply buy Android. Jesus F christ, how hard is it? It's why I always laugh at people who use JailBroken phones. They go out of their way to fiddle with unnecessarily overcomplicated nonsense just to enable few dumb hacks. Like, WHY!? Just get a frigging Android.

If anyone here is clueless it is YOU

---

do you even know what a consumer protection agency does?

 

They protect consumers from getting screwed over by companies.

And if they decide that Apple is in violation of said rules/regulations, !!APPLE IS IN VIOLATION!!

 

Do you think any big company just because they created a piece of software/hardware can do whatever they want with it? to the point of violating the law.

 

why do you even think laws exist?

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The excuse of just buy a android does not even work in this case.

 

Why are apple fanboys always so keen on using that statement when something does not go their way?

---

[pas008]

1 hour ago, RejZoR said:

Well, it seems that way. Dictating how closed ecosystems that were entirely created by the owner is beyond moronic. They made it, they should be allowed to do whatever the F they want with it. I treat them the same way I'd treat it if it was my company and if I was the owner of Apple I sure as hell wouldn't want some random clowns dictating me how I should run my successful company and how I should make or design my products and services. Criticizing Apple for not paying taxes is however, but that's not the same or related thing.

 

But people like to mix it all together and use whatever lame excuse to take a swing at the company. Be it market share, their net worth, not paying taxes, rabid hamsters or ecology. They'll just always find something to bitch about, be it actually justified or not.

do you use windows?

ok if microsoft did this shit you be bitching and crying until your throat and eyes bled

what you are saying is windows could lock down their OS and charge everyone 30% lol thats what you are saying pretty much

 

they are anti consumer, you buy a product which you dont own and then you are forced to buy from their store and on top of that they get shit loads of ways to bypass taxes and have so much influence over governments and politics

and I will laugh at your netflix shit because netflix was going to leave if they hadto pay apple tax which they allowed netflix and spotify to do but not others else get the drift? because apple didnt want to lose netflix because they seen the lost of funds

 

we all know you love apple and defend anything about them but seriously open your eyes

you have blind faith but you dont think they arent data harvesting you? they arent nickel and diming you to the top

what do you want next apple grocery stores, apple meat farms, apple towns, seriously they are getting too big same with google, you think these anticonsumer companies should be allowed to get so big everyone is owned by them? and no country government etc can do anything about their abuse they have been doing

 

just imagine if microsoft did this from the beginning would we even be here today? you wouldnt own your own hardware and wouldnt have any control over your pc

[RejZoR]

So, they've been in violation for 10+ years and no one gave a fuck this whole time. But now, suddenly, muh freedoms and muh consumer protection acts. Lol? Where was everyone this whole god damn time? Also how are they in violation, but others who do exact same damn things or even worse, where there is even less choice (consoles), it's not a problem? It's this arbitrary throwing of dumb arguments around that I can't take any of you seriously.

 

I'm not some Apple fan even if people with their narrow minds take me for. I just take Apple for what it is. They are known to offer limited stuff that just works, but is what it is. They are not there to offer you bazillion options and choices. And they are really good within what they offer. Demand billion things from them and you'll just turn it into another Android degeneracy. I frankly don't want that, even if it would in some theoretical level benefit me under certain situations. Apple's "walled garden" is a "paradise" because it works well. Let bunch of savages into the garden and you'll create a landfill. And that's exactly what happened to Android. OS itself is great, it's Google's shit and how vendors treat it and how GooglePlay is run that makes it a dumpsterfire.

[pas008]

14 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

So, they've been in violation for 10+ years and no one gave a fuck this whole time. But now, suddenly, muh freedoms and muh consumer protection acts. Lol? Where was everyone this whole god damn time? Also how are they in violation, but others who do exact same damn things or even worse, where there is even less choice (consoles), it's not a problem? It's this arbitrary throwing of dumb arguments around that I can't take any of you seriously.

 

I'm not some Apple fan even if people with their narrow minds take me for. I just take Apple for what it is. They are known to offer limited stuff that just works, but is what it is. They are not there to offer you bazillion options and choices. And they are really good within what they offer. Demand billion things from them and you'll just turn it into another Android degeneracy. I frankly don't want that, even if it would in some theoretical level benefit me under certain situations. Apple's "walled garden" is a "paradise" because it works well. Let bunch of savages into the garden and you'll create a landfill. And that's exactly what happened to Android. OS itself is great, it's Google's shit and how vendors treat it and how GooglePlay is run that makes it a dumpsterfire.

who does it worse please name them?

I'll be waiting

 

ill even take same thing

[darknessblade]

30 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

So, they've been in violation for 10+ years and no one gave a fuck this whole time. But now, suddenly, muh freedoms and muh consumer protection acts. Lol? Where was everyone this whole god damn time? Also how are they in violation, but others who do exact same damn things or even worse, where there is even less choice (consoles), it's not a problem? It's this arbitrary throwing of dumb arguments around that I can't take any of you seriously.

 

I'm not some Apple fan even if people with their narrow minds take me for. I just take Apple for what it is. They are known to offer limited stuff that just works, but is what it is. They are not there to offer you bazillion options and choices. And they are really good within what they offer. Demand billion things from them and you'll just turn it into another Android degeneracy. I frankly don't want that, even if it would in some theoretical level benefit me under certain situations. Apple's "walled garden" is a "paradise" because it works well. Let bunch of savages into the garden and you'll create a landfill. And that's exactly what happened to Android. OS itself is great, it's Google's shit and how vendors treat it and how GooglePlay is run that makes it a dumpsterfire.

 

There have been many cases where apple was fined for anti-consumer behavior

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Inc._litigation

 

https://www.zdnet.com/article/eu-plans-stronger-consumer-law-enforcement-after-apple-warranty-case/

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Not limited to

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Apple_Inc.

 

Misleading warranty claims
Italy
Main article: AppleCare

On December 27, 2011, Apple was fined a total of €900,000 by the Italian Antitrust Authority for failing to properly inform customers of their legal right to two years of warranty service under Italy's Consumer Code. According to the Italian agency Apple only disclosed its own standard one-year warranty and offered to sell customers AppleCare for one additional year instead of abiding by the law. The agency fined Apple €400,000 for failing to disclose the legally mandated two-year warranty and €500,000 for selling overlapping AppleCare coverage

 

iTunes
Main article: iTunes
Apple was caught up in controversy regarding the online sales of music in the European Union where, as a single market, customers are free to purchase goods and services from any member state. iTunes Stores there forced consumers and other music buyers to iTunes-only sites by restricting content purchases to the country from which the customers' payment details originated, which in turn forced users in some countries to pay higher prices. On December 3, 2004, the British Office of Fair Trading referred to the iTunes Music Store to the European Commission for violation of EU free-trade legislation. Apple commented that they did not believe they violated EU law, but were restricted by legal limits to the rights granted to them by the music labels and publishers. PC World commented that it appeared that "the Commission's main target is not Apple but the music companies and music rights agencies, which work on a national basis and give Apple very little choice but to offer national stores"

Quality control and customer service issues
The Danish Consumer Complaints Board reported a fault with Apple's iBook product line and criticized Apple's response to the issue, indicating customer support problems at Apple. In that case, a solder joint between two components fractured after a certain number of computer restarts causing the computer to break down, with most incidents occurring outside Apple's warranty period. Websites such as AppleDefects.com were created in response to the issue and detailed quality control issues with Apple's product portfolio.

Apple has been repeatedly criticized for its unwillingness to honor its warranties and its concomitant penchant for giving any reason for doing so, no matter how bizarre: in 2008, Apple repair centers began to refuse to honor warranties of its products which had been used in an environment it deemed hazardous, i.e., that had been used around someone who smokes, and in 2009, Apple refused to honor its warranty and replace a defective battery on a machine that had a small amount of unrelated cosmetic damage that did not affect the machine's functionality, nor that of its battery.

 

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Anti repair practices which are currently under investigation

 

https://www.theverge.com/2021/11/17/22787336/apple-right-to-repair-self-service-diy-reason-microsoft

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And the reason why there is not much news about this is because apple most likely bribes off media stations to twist the news, or uses the google adworks to their advantage to hide all things they do not want people to find.

 

the first 20 results are all apple sites.

each of the following one articles was on the 4th page of the google search results, even with hyper specific keywords

 

 

 

https://www.sfchronicle.com/local/article/Bribery-charge-against-Apple-executive-who-16218024.php

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-44529315

https://www.firstpost.com/tech/news-analysis/apple-violates-consumer-law-in-denmark-by-giving-customer-a-refurbished-phone-3694021.html

https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/07/23/apple-targeted-by-multi-state-consumer-protection-investigation

https://consumercal.org/apples-disregard-for-consumer-privacy-a-consistent-policy/

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/nov/17/apple-faces-privacy-case-in-europe-over-iphone-tracking-id

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Also the reason it takes soo long to take action is because companies like apple like to drag it out as much as they can.

 

if the legal period to submit a document is 30 days they will try to stall it as much as they can by submitting it 1 second before the legal period expires, or by giving incomplete info, the wrong document. so they get a additional 30 days to submit said document in its complete form.

 

Also the longer they drag it out, the more likely people tend to forget that "case" exists.