Linus tech tips "pirating" OCCT - answer from the dev [Reddit thread]

[Beanyfish03]

6 minutes ago, LinusTech said:

I don't actually get involved in moderation here. 

 

I want the forum to be as independent as possible other than being funded by us and sharing our name. 

 

That may change in the long term. Labs needs a home and this domain is super well established so it kinda makes sense to make the forum a sub section but we will see how it shakes out. 

My advice, don't enter into the Moderation Arena, you will just be accused of censoring things you don't like. Been there, done that and it's not worth it. 

 

Edit by Linus: Baabaabooey

 

[Mojo-Jojo]

People just get defensive when their lifestyle gets called out, I guess.

 

Websites warn you all the time that using adblockers hurts them. It shouldn't be news that adblockers have consequences.

I think piracy is a perfectly valid description, yet Linus already conceded and called it Privateering instead.

 

Now with OCCT, again Linus conceded and bought a license. It was an oversight. It happens.

 

Why all the fuss? You'd think we can just leave all this behind us.

[Arvids]

10 minutes ago, LinusTech said:

Holy shit we got one. 

 

Again I want to make it clear that I'm not saying there isn't a time and place for blocking ads.

 

We've discussed it before on the show. 

 

All I wanted was for people to consider the impact when they make their decision. Thank you for taking the time to understand my meaning rather than getting fixated in the word I used. 

 

As you can see, there's a distinct lack of that sort of thing around here lately

Actually I'm not a self-proclaimed Pirate, I'm in fact a very guilty one  I even run the biggest torrent tracker in my region back in the day, so technically (the statute of limitation has long passed on those events) I'm one of the most guilty people in my country in it's history on the "privateering" front by proxy 

 

But it was a different time, a different economic reality of a post-ussr state. These days I run YT premium since the moment it was available in my region, pay for Netflix, have a few anime streaming service subscriptions, I pay for all the software I use that's not open sourced (I also migrated to Linux Mint about 2.5 years ago by wiping my Windows drive that had a licenced windows on it) and support creators I like directly be it floatplane, twitch or Patreon and occasional PayPal donation. 

And I still privateer quite a chunk of movies, TV series and anime for a simple reason - there is no legal way to get that content in my region. They just do not bother distributing it. They do not want my money? Well, it's their problem, not mine then

[LinusTech]

6 minutes ago, Arvids said:

Actually I'm not a self-proclaimed Pirate, I'm in fact a very guilty one  I even run the biggest torrent tracker in my region back in the day, so technically (the statute of limitation has long passed on those events) I'm one of the most guilty people in my country in it's history on the "privateering" front

 

But it was a different time, a different economic reality of a post-ussr state. These days I run YT premium since the moment it was available in my region, pay for Netflix, have a few anime streaming service subscriptions, I pay for all the software I use that's not open sourced (I also migrated to Linux Mint about 2.5 years ago by wiping my Windows drive that had a licenced windows on it) and support creators I like directly be it floatplane, twitch or Patreon and occasional PayPal donation. 

And I still privateer quite a chunk of movies, TV series and anime for a simple reason - there is no legal way to get that content in my region. They just do not bother distributing it. They do not want my money? Well, it's their problem, not mine then

Man region locked content is such a prime example of 

 

"Yesterday's solution. Today" 

 

Again we've discussed 'ethical piracy' in reasonable depth on the wan show and I've admitted to doing my share of it. I was far worse when I was younger and had no money. 

 

It's just stupid stuff. I play pirated beat saber songs. I try to keep up to date on buying them on iTunes or whatever but the truth is I'm not perfect at it and if they weren't morons beat games would have signed licensing deals with a streaming service a thousand years ago and integrated the custom song functionality. It would be laughably simple. 

 

I've never hidden any of this stuff so the "ahha we got you" stuff going on here has been pretty baffling to me. 

 

All I can do is try to do better. People that are gonna come at me and make no effort of their own? Then they wonder their opinion means nothing to me. 

 

It's next level, man... 

[LinusTech]

10 minutes ago, Mojo-Jojo said:

People just get defensive when their lifestyle gets called out, I guess.

 

Websites warn you all the time that using adblockers hurts them. It shouldn't be news that adblockers have consequences.

I think piracy is a perfectly valid description, yet Linus already conceded and called it Privateering instead.

 

Now with OCCT, again Linus conceded and bought a license. It was an oversight. It happens.

 

Why all the fuss? You'd think we can just leave all this behind us.

Clearly not lol

[Arvids]

18 minutes ago, LinusTech said:

I don't actually get involved in moderation here. 

 

I want the forum to be as independent as possible other than being funded by us and sharing our name. 

 

That may change in the long term. Labs needs a home and this domain is super well established so it kinda makes sense to make the forum a sub section but we will see how it shakes out. 

Nah, leave it to the community and the active moderation team. Just talk to them about some rules for the labs section you would like to enforce to keep it extra civil. Pay them for that work as independent contractors if need be. They have been at this for a long time and they can and will do a better job anyway - speaking as someone who owns a sizeable Discord and moderates a few 30k+ Discord's and is responsible for building out a moderation team at the moment. 

Delegating is a hard skill to learn, you get burned along the way, but such is life. At least in my opinion. You certainly had experience with this numerous times

[LinusTech]

7 minutes ago, Arvids said:

Nah, leave it to the community and the active moderation team. Just talk to them about some rules for the labs section you would like to enforce to keep it extra civil. Pay them for that work as independent contractors if need be. They have been at this for a long time and they can and will do a better job anyway - speaking as someone who owns a sizeable Discord and moderates a few 30k+ Discord's and is responsible for building out a moderation team at the moment. 

Delegating is a hard skill to learn, you get burned along the way, but such is life. At least in my opinion. You certainly had experience with this numerous times

Sorry I think I was unclear. The forum would stay as-is, but it would be at linustechtips.com/forum.

 

The home page would be hardware news, benchmarks and lab reports, etc. 

 

We actually had a plan to turn it into a written site many years ago but didn't do it for a number of reasons (time mostly). 

 

Will make a final decision later tho. 

[Arvids]

2 minutes ago, LinusTech said:

Sorry I think I was unclear. The forum would stay as-is, but it would be at linustechtips.com/forum.

 

The home page would be hardware news, benchmarks and lab reports, etc. 

 

We actually had a plan to turn it into a written site many years ago but didn't do it for a number of reasons (time mostly). 

 

Will make a final decision later tho. 

Ah, makes sense. 

And yeah, I know about the written site stuff. Been following LTT since Langley house days -definitely started before the full house water cooling project  Still waiting on take 2 on that one :trollface:

[Dutch_Master]

@LinusTechIt's mid-morning in my part of the world, meaning it's the middle of the night at yours. I think I can safely say, based on info you shared, your dear wife would love to see more of you ATM

 

(just kidding, although I do think Yvonne wouldn't mind if you join her in the marital bed )

[trag1c]

41 minutes ago, LinusTech said:

Man region locked content is such a prime example of 

 

"Yesterday's solution. Today" 

 

Again we've discussed 'ethical piracy' in reasonable depth on the wan show and I've admitted to doing my share of it. I was far worse when I was younger and had no money. 

 

It's just stupid stuff. I play pirated beat saber songs. I try to keep up to date on buying them on iTunes or whatever but the truth is I'm not perfect at it and if they weren't morons beat games would have signed licensing deals with a streaming service a thousand years ago and integrated the custom song functionality. It would be laughably simple. 

 

I've never hidden any of this stuff so the "ahha we got you" stuff going on here has been pretty baffling to me. 

 

All I can do is try to do better. People that are gonna come at me and make no effort of their own? Then they wonder their opinion means nothing to me. 

 

It's next level man... 

People no longer possess (maybe never had) tolerance for differering views, even if there is some truth to it. You called it for what it was since it does have the same net result, and instead of people just owning it and giving a 'yarr matey' if they disagreed, they began erecting a cross.

 

I don't know how people can get through the day worrying about what some guy on the internet called them lol. 

[LinusTech]

20 minutes ago, Arvids said:

Ah, makes sense. 

And yeah, I know about the written site stuff. Been following LTT since Langley house days -definitely started before the full house water cooling project  Still waiting on take 2 on that one :trollface:

It's coming. 

[LinusTech]

20 minutes ago, Dutch_Master said:

@LinusTechIt's mid-morning in my part of the world, meaning it's the middle of the night at yours. I think I can safely say, based on info you shared, your dear wife would love to see more of you ATM

 

(just kidding, although I do think Yvonne wouldn't mind if you join her in the marital bed )

Ahaha she's asleep. I was soaking in the tub if you must know. Went really hard at badminton tonight and my muscles ain't as young as they used to be. 

[Lightwreather]

Ho boy, 6 pages in the couple hours I was gone....

And there was barely anthing while I was online, I thought this thread had been done with.

[Needfuldoer]

1 hour ago, LinusTech said:

Again we've discussed 'ethical piracy' in reasonable depth on the wan show and I've admitted to doing my share of it. I was far worse when I was younger and had no money. 

Who among us can honestly say they haven't.

 

When there's content you want to consume, but you don't have the means to casually pay $60 for a box set or whatever, that magnet link is awfully tempting.

 

I think that can get warped into a sense of entitlement though, where paying anything for content (money or your time and attention watching ads) becomes a slight. That's bubbled up at least a couple times in this very thread. 

 

Blocking ads hurts all content creators, but it hits the ones without other sources of revenue harder. 

[Mojo-Jojo]

30 minutes ago, J-from-Nucleon said:

Ho boy, 6 pages in the couple hours I was gone....

And there was barely anthing while I was online, I thought this thread had been done with.

The thread has completely derailed, but it's been a blast.

[SL5]

@LinusTech you seem to completely miss that LMG relationship with their viewers is not a one-way street. Viewers and subscribers who invest their time into watching your videos - instead of some other content creators - enable LMG as a venture; without them, there would be no sponsor deals or other monetization options, you simply wouldn't have credibility for that. It is a mutually beneficial relationship, and viewers absolutely do not owe you, or any other content creators publishing on Youtube, any additional payments - even in the form of viewing (or even loading) ads served alongside actual content. Providing anything beyond their valuable time - that could well be spent elsewhere - is out of their good will, and your entitled attitude is unwarranted. Like, taking an established word and trying to assign it a distinctively new meaning to shame part of your viewers? Come on! You may be annoyed this, and consequent incident with improperly licensed software in one of your videos, caught so much attention - but not everyone is a troll who came to gloat; some folks are expressing concern because they genuinely care, having been on this journey with you for years - as your audience. Maybe it's high time you tried to distance yourself from the situation, and look at from a different point of view; or, you can continue to spit in the faces of your viewers like many other youtubers do, pretty sure you'll get away with it.

[Arika]

3 minutes ago, SL5 said:

@LinusTech you seem to completely miss that LMG relationship with their viewers is not a one-way street. Viewers and subscribers who invest their time into watching your videos - instead of some other content creators - enable LMG as a venture; without them, there would be no sponsor deals or other monetization options, you simply wouldn't have credibility for that. It is a mutually beneficial relationship, and viewers absolutely do not owe you, or any other content creators publishing on Youtube, any additional payments - even in the form of viewing (or even loading) ads served alongside actual content. Providing anything beyond their valuable time, that could well be spent elsewhere, is out of their good will, and your entitled attitude is unwarranted. Like, taking an established word and trying to assign it a distinctively new meaning to shame part of your viewers? Come on! You may be annoyed this, and consequent incident with improperly licensed software in one of your videos, caught so much attention - but not everyone is a troll who came to gloat; some folks are expressing concern because they genuinely care, having been on this journey with you for years - as your viewers. Maybe it's high time you tried to distance yourself from the situation, and tried to look at from a different point of view; or, you can continue spitting in the faces of your viewers like many other youtubers do, pretty sure you'll get away with it.

sorry, but this is literally "i will pay you in exposure".

 

Your "time" is worth nothing in these situations. you block ads, big deal, just admit it to yourself. but all you need to realise is that by doing so the creator doesn't get paid for your self-determined "valuable time".

 

I block ads, because i hate ads and will never buy anything because of an ad, not because i think somehow my time is worth more to creators than the ad payout they would get from me.

[Adenrius]

13 minutes ago, SL5 said:

@LinusTech you seem to completely miss that LMG relationship with their viewers is not a one-way street. Viewers and subscribers who invest their time into watching your videos - instead of some other content creators - enable LMG as a venture; without them, there would be no sponsor deals or other monetization options, you simply wouldn't have credibility for that. It is a mutually beneficial relationship, and viewers absolutely do not owe you, or any other content creators publishing on Youtube, any additional payments - even in the form of viewing (or even loading) ads served alongside actual content. Providing anything beyond their valuable time - that could well be spent elsewhere - is out of their good will, and your entitled attitude is unwarranted. Like, taking an established word and trying to assign it a distinctively new meaning to shame part of your viewers? Come on! You may be annoyed this, and consequent incident with improperly licensed software in one of your videos, caught so much attention - but not everyone is a troll who came to gloat; some folks are expressing concern because they genuinely care, having been on this journey with you for years - as your audience. Maybe it's high time you tried to distance yourself from the situation, and look at from a different point of view; or, you can continue to spit in the faces of your viewers like many other youtubers do, pretty sure you'll get away with it.

Are you implying you would be okay if I ask you to work for me and when you ask for a salary I just say "I'm already giving you my time, I don't own you anything else!"?

[Mojo-Jojo]

16 minutes ago, SL5 said:

@LinusTech you seem to completely miss that LMG relationship with their viewers is not a one-way street. Viewers and subscribers who invest their time into watching your videos - instead of some other content creators - enable LMG as a venture; without them, there would be no sponsor deals or other monetization options, you simply wouldn't have credibility for that. It is a mutually beneficial relationship, and viewers absolutely do not owe you, or any other content creators publishing on Youtube, any additional payments - even in the form of viewing (or even loading) ads served alongside actual content. Providing anything beyond their valuable time - that could well be spent elsewhere - is out of their good will, and your entitled attitude is unwarranted. Like, taking an established word and trying to assign it a distinctively new meaning to shame part of your viewers? Come on! You may be annoyed this, and consequent incident with improperly licensed software in one of your videos, caught so much attention - but not everyone is a troll who came to gloat; some folks are expressing concern because they genuinely care, having been on this journey with you for years - as your audience. Maybe it's high time you tried to distance yourself from the situation, and look at from a different point of view; or, you can continue to spit in the faces of your viewers like many other youtubers do, pretty sure you'll get away with it.

Explain to me one thing: How is it a mutually beneficial relationship between a viewer and a creator if that viewer chooses not to watch the ads? You claim that you investing your valuable time relieves you of owing anything to LTT, but LTT already pay for your time in entertainment. Which you sought out. But the transaction entails more than time and entertainment. There's production costs. Furthermore, you and the creator are not the only parties in the transaction. Google has to pay for their infrastructure, which you're also using and then not paying for.

 

It's straight up hilarious, that you should accuse LTT of having a sense of entitlement and then continue to assert that you don't owe anybody anything but still want to consume the content.

[Needfuldoer]

22 minutes ago, Mojo-Jojo said:

Explain to me one thing: How is it a mutually beneficial relationship between a viewer and a creator if that viewer chooses not to watch the ads?

The viewer gets free content that took hours of real labor to assemble, and the content creator maybe sees their view count increment by one as a representation of the valuable, finite time the viewer spent consuming their content.

 

If that's not a mutually beneficial transaction, I don't know what is.

 

/s

[SL5]

48 minutes ago, Arika S said:

sorry, but this is literally "i will pay you in exposure".

1. if creator chose a platform that does not require direct payment from their users, that's on them.

2. while in other circumstances completely unacceptable, for youtube and social media platforms payment in exposure is perfectly acceptable and implied, in my opinion. creators wouldn't ask for likes & subscription in their every video/post, sometimes multiple times, if that wasn't the case - don't you think?

48 minutes ago, Arika S said:

but all you need to realise is that by doing so the creator doesn't get paid for your self-determined "valuable time".

Creator still appreciates all the views and subscriptions, which in turn grants them sponsorship contracts. Again, it's on creator if they chose youtube instead of a paywalled platform.

41 minutes ago, Adenrius said:

Are you implying you would be okay if I ask you to work for me and when you ask for a salary I just say "I'm already giving you my time, I don't own you anything else!"?

Are you implying that offering a service for free - for whatever reason - then asking for compensation is acceptable?

41 minutes ago, Mojo-Jojo said:

But the transaction entails more than time and entertainment.

Not on youtube, it doesn't.

41 minutes ago, Mojo-Jojo said:

There's production costs.

1. There are sponsorship contracts.

2. If creator chose Youtube instead of paywalled platform, that's their choice, which has obvious consequences.

41 minutes ago, Mojo-Jojo said:

Google has to pay for their infrastructure, which you're also using and then not paying for.

All users of Google products pay with their personal data being sold to the highest bidder. It is actually the case for most "free" services.

 

 

[Isuck Assimov]

it's more likely than you think.

[Skiiwee29]

Just to reiterate... The adblocking/Piracy talk belongs in the Priacy thread, NOT here. See the note I quoted regarding this from @Spotty from a few hours ago. 

 

 

 

On 2/15/2022 at 12:33 AM, Spotty said:

The discussion in this thread about adblocking has been moved to the existing thread discussing the topic.

 

I do understand that Linus' recent comments on piracy is part of the reason he is facing additional scrutiny for his use of OCCT software in this situation, however debating whether or not it is ethical to use an adblocker here only detracts from the discussion about OCCT, especially when there is already an ongoing debate on adblocking elsewhere. Please keep the topics in their respective threads.

 

[MageTank]

19 hours ago, LinusTech said:

Here's a hypothetical:

 

If Serve the Home wanted to test some enterprise-ass simulation or machine learning shit, should they buy a multi-thousand dollar license (or more) for each machine (or core omg) that will run it? 

 

Legally, the answer is yes (which I already acknowledged).

Fun fact (kinda related): My engineering team reached out to Futuremark for a quote to publish benchmarking results for use in marketing. We were quoted 75k-130k to PUBLISH the results, even though we were paying for their professional license. Granted, this was a few years back before they were acquired by Underwriters Labs, but still, we had to get our lawyers to comb through the agreements to see if we were allowed to publish results with our existing license and it turned out to not be true.

 

19 hours ago, LinusTech said:

But, for fun, let's apply some basic common sense. Here's an example:

 

STH is not actually in the business of whatever kind of R&D that software is used for. They are not the target customer and thr pricing model of that software (usually based on some kind of RoI calculation) probably makes no sense for their business model - which is using the software to determine which hardware runs it best and monetizing that to ACTUAL potential customers for the hardware and... you got it! The software! 

 

Let's say I'm the software dev. If I refuse to provide a license for my software what have I gained? Nothing. Maybe even exposure for my competitors... Oops. 

First and foremost, let's not pretend common sense is as common as it should be. There is a reason the phrase "You can't make something idiot-proof. The moment you do, they build a better idiot" exists.

 

Secondly, your point here is based on a flawed premise. If a company wants to sell and market their product as "good in these workloads", they should be buying the product they are testing explicitly because they are the target audience of that software. Just because they themselves have no intention to use the software for its "original intended purpose", doesn't mean the software doesn't provide a service that benefits the companies (STH in this context) current purpose behind using it. My apologies in advance for this god-awful analogy but its my favorite one. Listerine was originally a floor cleaner. It wasn't until some genius had the bright idea to take a swig of the forbidden Gatorade that they realized it could clean your mouth parts too. You wouldn't have been entitled to partake in this burning blue beverage just because you wanted to see if it would taste good (not use it for its intended purpose). You'd still have to buy the bottle before taking that sip, despite how you intend to market the product otherwise, lol.

 

19 hours ago, LinusTech said:

Let's say I'm the software dev. If I refuse to provide a license for my software what have I gained? Nothing. Maybe even exposure for my competitors... Oops. 

 

If I provide a license, what do I gain? 

- valuable feedback on my software (could be compatibility or performance numbers - maybe for a system I haven't tested or don't have access to) 

- potential media partnerships 

- exposure leading to potential sales to my (better educated about the utility of my product) target customers

This feels akin to the artist dilemma of people wanting commissions but paying with exposure, lol. They already get valuable feedback from the users that are licensed to use the product for free. If they need commercial feedback, they would likely license it to a larger scale company for testing. Your feedback would be no more valuable than that of their target audience using the product already so I do not see giving tech "influencers" a free license on the grounds of product feedback being beneficial. While physical product reviews are valuable especially if done before launch, software doesn't need this. Software will be patched and updated throughout its lifetime based on feedback provided by the already existing userbase.

 

I am not entirely sure what a media partnership entails. If its sponsor spots, I don't see a small company or one man dev team being able to afford a slot. This would instead tie-in to your point on increased exposure, which it would be up to the developer to determine if they want to trade a license for the marketing/publicity. It sounds like they would be willing to do so, based on the context derived from the posts in this thread and the sources quoted.

 

My experience working with specialized software devs like this is that we offer them X amount of money annually to pre-install their software or offer a license for our customers to use their product upon downloading and activating it. These deals at least give them a steadier flow of income and a decently sized feedback base both from our engineering team and our customers.

 

19 hours ago, LinusTech said:

Someone (many of you as well, apparently) got sand in their butt crack because I made the correct assertion that ad blocking is functionally the same as piracy (using without paying). 

The butt of my screwdriver can functionally be used as a hammer. Doesn't mean we call the screwdriver a hammer. (Shoutout to iFixit's Manta driver kit, for making a thick screwdriver that can easily beat against rivets without an issue). Also, using something without paying isn't how piracy is defined. By that logic, using media review licenses is piracy because you used something without paying, even with permission. No need to muddy this water any further, given the drama that some people have with this assertion, lol.

 

19 hours ago, LinusTech said:

Is what I did piracy? Again, sure is. But I consider it to be ethical piracy (which I've never said doesn't exist) for the reasons I stated above, and while not everyone will agree 100% and someone MAY at some point reach out and say "Don't EVER show my software again without a proper license"... That isn't what happened here (if you were paying attention rather than being righteously furious about something else entirely) and I sincerely doubt it ever will. And I promise you no one would be stupid enough to sue me over it - mostly becuase they don't give a shit.

 

Ethical piracy is an oxymoron. Since I have a habit of using awful analogies, let me double down. Is it ethical for Batman to savagely beat petty criminals to prevent Gotham children from going through what he did as a child? On the surface, it sounds like it is because good guy beat up bad guy = OK. The problem is, Batman isn't making Gotham a better city. He puts petty thieves in the hospital with broken backs and insane hospital bills, thinking that will teach them a lesson about not doing crime. If anything, they need to do more crime to pay off those bills, perpetuating an endless cycle of crime and "justice" in Gotham. Bruce Wayne has more potential to save Gotham than Batman does...

 

I forgot where I was going with this. Oh yeah, like Batman, ethical piracy isn't real. Even if either one was real, neither would be good.

 

19 hours ago, LinusTech said:

We are a commercial entity, but we aren't *really* a user of the product. We are COVERING the product. That doesn't mean we never make mistakes and doesn't make us an educational institution (never said it did, holy fuck have a lot of words been put in my mouth... Like... holy fuck) but it makes the purpose of the content not *just* educational but educational about their product to their customers. This is the key. 

I wish this logic worked for my company. We too are a commercial entity, yet we have to pay for our test software and games that we use for benchmarking. I can't just say "I was showing our customers what kind of framerates they'll get, I am not the intended customer for this game". I mean, come on. I would NEVER play a battle royale, yet kids these days want to know how many frames they'll get in Warzone and that god awful Battlefield 2042 game.

 

This isn't even counting the licenses that charge us on a PER ENGINEER basis. God, imagine if I could offer them publicity about their product but not have to pay for it, lol. Honestly, I should have someone look into this...

 

In summary: I think people have too much time on their hands if this drama is the focus of their day. At the very least, it proves the world is moving in the right direction and that we have nothing better to worry about. Also, Batman is still an awful "hero" and nobody should respect what he does. His "moral code" and "ethics" have gotten more people killed than saved. Frank Castle > Batman.

[Stahlmann]

On 2/15/2022 at 1:37 AM, SlidewaysZ said:

@LinusTechYou ask me to respond to your questions you posed yet you can't take 30 seconds to reply especially with an entire thread going off the rails. Seems like you might need more than a simple explanation because many people in this thread are beginning to question your character and the thread is spinning out of control.

He said everything there is to say. Nothing he'll say will please the people that are still discussing this. He could come back and say the same things 30 more times but that wouldn't change anything. Don't you have something better to do with your life? This is just like the Linux threads with people doing nothing else but going around in circles stirring up each other. I take a look at this thread about once a day and still see the same discussion going absolutely nowhere.

 

Seems like cancel culture has reached LTT's community too.