Linus tech tips "pirating" OCCT - answer from the dev [Reddit thread]

[grawutzi]

It's kinda sad that the whole saga couldn't be seperated from the ad-blocking stuff(BTW I used to be an adblock-andy but I got YT premium now and I'm happy to leave my sweet sweet monetisation at LTT)

 

But I'm kinda dissapointed in the community for piling on to him. As far as I have seen he/she has posted one comment about this where they poured out their current feelings. 'This wasn't a PR departement that issued a public apology, rather it was one person who clearly had this thought on their mid for a long time... 

 

I watched Louis' video about all this. And I fully agree with his stance that it's not healthy to hols a grudge for this long. But I also get that it's not always easy, especially for a private person to really be offencive about those feelings, especially if it's a way more public forum than what you're used to deal with. 

 

Additionally, as an OSS contributor It's not a new concept for me. For Free software the grudge is usually directed more towards not being attributed (e.g. Azure not giving enough credits to GNU/Linux etc.) but I guess it's similar to devs of small devs going the freeware route. 

 

I think what I'm getting at is the follwing:

1) Don't treat a single developer project like a full f***ing org

2) Education isn't an argument if you're not educating about the software(just using it)

3) Please have more good faith

4) Don't mix unrelated drama into this

5) Make more great videos

 

Just give this poor dev a call and resolve those issues in private

 

edit: I don't really care about the whole exposure argument. I mostly agree that it can be a good thing and a lot of creators only got big because of said exposure. But I might add that, additionally to using said software giving a shouout wouldn't hurt nobody. 

 

And what I forgot to write: Most of those download sites like sourceforge etc. have only private use in their EULAs, So you gotta be mindful of that while growing... But also It's very understandable if you're missing that...

 

Last but not least English is my second(technically third) language. Do please be kind

[Middcore]

10 minutes ago, kumicota said:

there's no such thing as ethical crime

 

Please, I am begging you, for the sake of repercussions far beyond this petty internet shit-flinging contest, think about this more deeply. I hope I don't have to be so gauche as to specifically point out any of the things that were defined as "crimes" in various places at various points in history, or the other things that were not only legal but sanctioned and mandated. 

[chocolatekarma]

@LinusTechIt's not semantics at this point at all.  Piracy means one thing, and one thing only.  It means unauthorized duplication.  That's not what ad blocking is at all.  This post is not to debate, but rather state facts. 

[Jr2_]

9 minutes ago, LinusTech said:

Go read my posts. Literally all of this is addressed. 

I apologize for the brashness of some of my takes after reading a little more on twitter and the last few pages of the thread on the forum. Still after though, I do still see a bit of hypocrisy for calling out people who use adblock (like it or hate it thats what you did on some takes on twitter), and trying to stand behind a 'educational use' for showing the program without paying for it. I do see on one of the first download links when occt download is searched (https://download.cnet.com/OCCT/3000-2094_4-75791900.html)   that there is no 'personal use only', but I would certainly hope that at 14m subscribers you would look for the original source to see their usage terms (which were there) before you used the program. Also, as for being a showcase of the program, there is no ' we're using occt for this test, it is a way to check your temps' and such

 

also, this is part of a message I got before I started a test with it. LMG is definitely a commercial and/or professional environment

 

I don't wish to start throwing turds straight up monkey style, I just wanted a little more answer to the decisions made before/while/after the video and callout were made, once again I am a fan and this has not changed that.

[Legitsu]

what Linus did isn't even piracy tho I said this earlier he didn't rip off a legit a copy, didn't illegally download a cracked copy or any of those things that might be considered piracy 

 

 

what he did is actually closer to turning off AdBlock than 'piracy' he opted to not pay... initially either through genuine misunderstanding or ignorance.

 

but as any officer will tell you ignorance of the law is no excuse. was there any law broken here ? NO EULA's are NOT LAW, they are sometimes legally binding depends. but it is up to the software provider to enforce that 

 

piracy is NOT ILLEGAL In the USA and not in the great nation of candiastien(at least as much as I can find on google ) there is no law on the books specify defining the act of downloading software and using it in violation of its EULA as 'piracy' 

 

Copyright infringement and intellectual property theft are Crimes and you can argue that those things apply here 

 

but violating the letter of the law and MABY the spirit I highly doubt that would hold in any but the most kangaroo of courts 

 

as for Linus's use being commercial yes, if you are making money off that particular content then it meets most definitions 

 

and I am sorry @LinusTech 

what you intended or the point you were trying to make is lost in the particular words you used to make said point

we are not inside your head we have no idea what you were actually thinking and the time to explain that was with the initial point NOT after it 

and not spend 40+ arguing the  semantics of it all 

 

You can call it being cheap, being a shitty person, moral ambiguity whatever but you CAN NOT CALL IT PIRACY!

you are banned from using that word from now until tech Jesus cuts his hair and nails himself to a cross made of Newegg boxes, you are DONE  k?ok 

 

and that whole educational free exposure whatever Twitter assumption

you literally blew your own leg off by walking through THAT minefield high-stepping like an old soviet union military parade 

that was an incredibly bad take and I think you are smart enough to know that 

 

If I wrote some slick piece of software and you used it in one of your videos without at least giving me a SUP go check this project out shoutout I would be a bit NETTLED 

which you didn't do with OCCT which was probably just a logistical oversite 

but it looks so incredibly disingenuous given what was said on WAN Show 

people are pissed at you right now some of them are brigading some of them are genuinely questioning you 

 

instead of going in circles trying to explain why you were right or that we didn't understand what you were said maybe just bury that crow in the SAUCE of your choice and eat it.

 

 

[Rex Hite]

I'm unaware of any ethical imperative on the consumer to accept/receive/view/absorb advertisements. It is not the deal, and never was.

How the consumer decides to watch or avoid ads is their business. Ethics does not enter into the matter.

Adblocking, putting the kettle on, going for a slash, muting, or changing the channel is all well within the understood arrangement between the 'networks', advertisers and producers. Technological capability should not drive or determine ethics in such a trivial arena as YouTube videos.

Is not watching a YouTube video to completion also a so-called ethical lapse? (If there was a penalty to the producer for incomplete views which I thought was a thing but maybe not...?)

Anyway, within his own ethical framework (however badly expressed and even erroneous), I still think he's golden on this matter.

 

 

[Kronion]

22 minutes ago, chocolatekarma said:

Piracy means one thing, and one thing only.

Now, don't forget about this kind of piracy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy

Not unauthorized duplication now, is it?

 

On a more serious note, "Digital piracy" is a very loosely defined term, that's been applied to all kinds of copyright infringement (here in Germany they use the term "pirate streaming" for illegal or rather unauthorized streams, for example). There's a reason why it is not an actual legal term.

[Roswell]

1 hour ago, LinusTech said:

Is what I did piracy? Again, sure is. But I consider it to be ethical piracy

This has to be one of the dumbest takes you’ve ever had, and there’s plenty to pick from.

 

You’re a business. There’s no ethical piracy slant. You either pay people for the tools you use for financial gain or you don’t. The latter makes you a hypocritical jerk.

 

Time to grow up, you’re running a medium sized business and you sound like a child.

 

Go ahead and ban me, I don’t care. You need to heed the reality check you’ve been handed over the last few days.

 

 

[LinusTech]

6 minutes ago, Roswell said:

This has to be one of the dumbest takes you’ve ever had, and there’s plenty to pick from.

 

You’re a business. There’s no ethical piracy slant. You either pay people for the tools you use for financial gain or you don’t. The latter makes you a hypocritical jerk.

 

Time to grow up, you’re running a medium sized business and you sound like a child.

 

Go ahead and ban me, I don’t care. You need to heed the reality check you’ve been handed over the last few days.

 

 

You are not involved, so nothing you say or think about this actually matters. 

 

This is between me and the dev and we both agree (both then and now) that the exchange was fine. 

 

All he cared about was that we didn't ask permission first. Go read his actual posts and come back here with an education about it. I apologized and he is happy with my solution (to pay for a year of pro) 

 

Or don't bother. It's up to you whether you want to be informed or not. 

 

Also, this forum is for free exchange of ideas about tech and the implication that I would ban you because of a bad take demonstrates you know nothing about me whatsoever. 

[chocolatekarma]

8 minutes ago, Kronion said:

"Digital piracy" is a very loosely defined term, that's been applied to all kinds of copyright infringement. There's a reason why it is not an actual legal term.

Regardless, it all revolves around using someone's owned content.  ie duplication. 

[LinusTech]

3 minutes ago, chocolatekarma said:

Regardless, it all revolves around using someone's owned content.  ie duplication. 

Which is laughably easy to apply here... 

 

It's like... what do you think happens in order for you to watch a YouTube video? 

 

A copy gets downloaded to your PC. 

 

Mind. Blown.

[Moonzy]

30 minutes ago, chocolatekarma said:

Piracy means one thing, and one thing only.  It means unauthorized duplication.

 

Quote

Piracy
The act of violence or depredation on the high seas; also, the theft of Intellectual Property, especially in electronic media.
...
 used colloquially to describe the appropriation of the INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY of others, e.g. ‘pirate video’.

Quote

Theft
A criminal act in which property belonging to another is taken without that person's consent.

 

Quote

Intellectual Property

Intangible rights protecting the products of human intelligence and creation, such as copyrightable works, patented inventions, Trademarks, and trade secrets. Although largely governed by federal law, state law also governs some aspects of intellectual property.

 

Quote

Appropriation
The designation by the government or an individual of the use to which a fund of money is to be applied.

 

did some digging, but IANAL, so...

 

3 minutes ago, LinusTech said:

It's like... what do you think happens in order for you to watch a YouTube video? 

 

A copy gets downloaded to your PC.

are you implying that watching youtube is equivalent to theft of intellectual property?

[chocolatekarma]

2 minutes ago, LinusTech said:

Which is laughably easy to apply here... 

 

It's like... what do you think happens in order for you to watch a YouTube video? 

 

A copy gets downloaded to your PC. 

 

Mind. Blown.

YouTube doesn't ban ad blockers though, so it's not unauthorized at all.  If you have an issue with that, then take it up with YouTube.

[mapegl]

This is a really weird thread. So many people are angry about stuff that Linus literally already addressed and explained what he meant...they still think they can read more into this.

 

Sure the wording may have been awkward and not perfectly on point, but a lot of this seems like some of you just want to be angry.

 

And calling somebody dumb already disqualifies anyone as a member of a discussion...

 

And about the word "piracy". Yes there are certain meaning attached to it, but I mean come on. He also thoroughly explained why he uses the term. Additionally, usage or words changes as well as that is perfectly alright to define a word in a specific context and use it that way. Kinda 101 of academic work. 

 

And lastly, it is not really hypocrisy. He also addressed that and very well so. Yes he says Adblock is piracy and he also does not try to hide that he has used it and made tutorials on it. 

 

 

What I am trying to say is: It ain't all black and white folks. 

[LinusTech]

7 minutes ago, chocolatekarma said:

YouTube doesn't ban ad blockers though, so it's not unauthorized at all.  If you have an issue with that, then take it up with YouTube.

They choose not to pursue it. That changes nothing about the fact that it's an obvious ethical grey area (like many aspect of piracy). We are all very smart people and know that the payment for the content is ad views.

 

LMG is a good business and well-diversified. We will survive if we turned off adsense tomorrow. The creators you're really hurting are the small ones. If you sleep well at night knowing that, swell.

 

All I ever asked is that you understand that.

[chocolatekarma]

2 minutes ago, LinusTech said:

They choose not to pursue it. That changes nothing about the fact that it's an obvious ethical grey. We are all very smart people and know that the payment for the content is ad views.

 

LMG is a good business and well-diversified. We will survive if we turned off adsense tomorrow. The creators you're really hurting are the small ones. If you sleep well at night knowing that, swell.

 

All I ever asked is that you understand that.

But by blocking ads I'm also saving YouTube money, and in turn contributing to the well-being of the platform you (and every other YT creator) rely on. 

[Moonzy]

Just now, chocolatekarma said:

But by blocking ads I'm also saving YouTube money

what the duck? elaborate?

[chocolatekarma]

1 minute ago, Moonzy said:

what the duck? elaborate?

If no ad is viewed, then there is no money to pay out for my view.

[CT854]

5 minutes ago, mapegl said:

This is a really weird thread. So many people are angry about stuff that Linus literally already addressed and explained what he meant...they still think they can read more into this.

 

Sure the wording may have been awkward and not perfectly on point, but a lot of this seems like some of you just want to be angry.

I mean, that's exactly the issue, though. Things are good on the end of the people actually involved in this incident. This has just become a sounding board to attack LMG for reasons that won't get resolved by any discussion. Disliking LMG is one thing. Dedicating so much time to use this issue as a sounding board is another.

 

Which begs the question -- @LinusTech... why are you still responding? You almost certainly have better things to be doing, what is the net positive of continuing to engage? I'm genuinely curious at this point.

[Needfuldoer]

5 minutes ago, chocolatekarma said:

If no ad is viewed, then there is no money to pay out for my view.

If no ad is viewed, no revenue is generated to offset the costs of hosting and distributing the video content. They just happen to drop a few pennies to the people actually generating that content.

 

Of course we're talking about Google, they undoubtedly treat YouTube as a loss leader for the benefit of collecting user interaction data, but still. Servers aren't free, even for them.

 

And who doesn't get that payout?

[Moonzy]

4 minutes ago, chocolatekarma said:

If no ad is viewed, then there is no money to pay out for my view.

i have absolutely no idea of the innerworking, but i assumed the advertisers pay for the ads per view (or something), and youtube simply takes a cut along the transaction?

[dilpickle]

1 minute ago, chocolatekarma said:

If no ad is viewed, then there is no money to pay out for my view.

I don't think you understand how this works.

 

Youtube keeps the majority of the ad revenue for themselves. They only pay out a small percentage to the creators.

 

If you watch a video you are using their bandwidth which costs them money. They need to make that back somehow plus profit.

[dilpickle]

10 minutes ago, LinusTech said:

They choose not to pursue it. That changes nothing about the fact that it's an obvious ethical grey area (like many aspect of piracy). We are all very smart people and know that the payment for the content is ad views.

 

LMG is a good business and well-diversified. We will survive if we turned off adsense tomorrow. The creators you're really hurting are the small ones. If you sleep well at night knowing that, swell.

 

All I ever asked is that you understand that.

I'm pretty sure the majority of people who run adblock already understand that. They just don't care. Same with software pirates.

[LinusTech]

2 minutes ago, chocolatekarma said:

If no ad is viewed, then there is no money to pay out for my view.

Does someone wanna tell them?

 

1 minute ago, CT854 said:

I mean, that's exactly the issue, though. Things are good on the end of the people actually involved in this incident. This has just become a sounding board to attack LMG for reasons that won't get resolved by any discussion. Disliking LMG is one thing. Dedicating so much time to use this issue as a sounding board is another.

 

Which begs the question -- @LinusTech... why are you still responding? You almost certainly have better things to be doing, what is the net positive of continuing to engage? I'm genuinely curious at this point.

The truth is I'm kinda having fun with it.

 

I used to argue on the internet a lot in my youth. Usually about how anyone could be stupid enough to pay more for an Intel CPU that performs worse than an AMD or similar. 

 

My final word on this was my reddit post. The dev and I have mutually agreed that this is settled, which makes every single other involved party a white knight.

 

I likened it to shooting tuna in a barrel when someone internally asked me the same thing earlier today. 

 

As for why I'm writing this right now, I'm sitting in a boring meeting where I have to supervise, but I'm not actually required to interact

[chocolatekarma]

4 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

i have absolutely no idea of the innerworking, but i assumed the advertisers pay for the ads, and youtube simply takes a cut along the transaction?

YouTube gets a flat rate from the advertiser, so whether I watch the ad or not is irrelevant to them.  But by blocking the ad YT keeps 100% of the revenue in their pocket.