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Using NFT's to buy a house

PizzaPuntThomas
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Posted
4 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

Lmao what? You can privately sell your home however you please and you can have a contract that's legally binding regardless if it's physical or virtual. Most of the legal work done while selling a home is related to the banks and your mortgage. The banks really want to make sure you aren't frauding them so they end up twisting your arm for 30 days. Contrary to that I've watched someone buy a home fully in cash and they had the title within a business week. There was no realtor involved and no loans/banks getting in the way. 

Yeah no shit, it's easier if you don't need a mortgage. How does using NFTs prevent you from needing a loan exactly? They might even make it harder because you'd be taking the loan to buy crypto, not directly to buy a house.

7 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

A smart contract with an NFT is just as legally binding as a normal title.

As far as I know, owning an NFT by itself isn't enough for you to own the house. It's about as valuable as a sheet of toilet paper saying you now own the house. You're welcome to show me otherwise... and I guess it would also depend on local laws. I'm 100% certain it's not enough in my country, mostly because ownership of a house also carries with it a series of taxes that need to be accounted for, plus a tax on the change of ownership itself.

11 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

As for your last sentence you are still confused on how NFTs work. They aren't the home they are the representative ownership of it or aka the title of the home. You might say we don't need NFT titles because we already have them but they are incredibly easy to fraud, expensive, and slow. 

The NFT market is ripe with fraud... what protections does the blockchain have that you think make it safer than regular contracts? All it guarantees is that the transaction was carried out correctly, it does absolutely nothing to prevent fraud.

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Posted

This is from a US law perspective, but I finally found something relating to a legal source regarding NFTs: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3928901

It seems quite extensive, also touching on why other tokens such as deeds are valid, and I haven't fully read it yet, but it corroborate's @Sauron's point that they indeed do not give legal right to anything they are "tied to" in their current form in our current construction of the law:

Quote

Although digital uniqueness is a noble goal, in this section we will show that NFTs, at least as currently structured, do not provide that uniqueness for the underlying asset. The key to a true token is that the transfer system for the token provides a method of transferring the intangible rights embodied in the token.[203] We also show below that current law does not give NFTs tethering effects—specifically, that the current system of property and commercial law does not provide the legal tethering of the NFT to another asset. We recognize, however, that just because current law does not provide tethering effects does not mean that it couldn’t. Indeed, as noted in Part I, all of our current forms of legal tokens essentially stem from commercial practices that the law eventually accorded legal recognition. For example, the trading of paper notes as a substitute for currency was a commercial activity that worked in practice among merchants and so was eventually given legal effect by the courts.[204] But, as currently constituted in the marketplace, the theoretical justifications for doing the same with NFTs are dim. Specifically, we conclude our critique in this Part III by putting NFTs within the lens of property theory literature, showing the theoretical weaknesses for giving NFTs tethering qualities.[205]

 

Quote

In other words, ownership of the token conveys ownership of something else. But NFTs, as currently constituted, do no such thing. They are not tethering—they do not embody property rights in a reference thing.
<snip>
But in the case of NFTs, there is no tethering. Creating an NFT of another thing—whether tangible or intangible—creates no legal link such as is created with the examples in Part I. Going back to the digital image of an oil painting described in Part I.B, the creation of the NFT and its purchase by a third person, without more, conveys no actual rights in the digital painting.

 

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Posted
7 hours ago, PizzaPuntThomas said:

In Florida, a house is being sold as a NFT, the benefit of this would be to make selling real estate easier. 

 

Now i am waiting for some good "Florida man" jokes 😄

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7 hours ago, PizzaPuntThomas said:

My thoughts

I think that it is a bit stupid to sell an ownership document as a NFT

You are really forgiving. I think there are few things more stupid than buying an NFT of an house. All the legal binding documents have to be done off the chain anyway, and nothing in the NFT prevents a duplicate link inside the blockchain, let alone forks of the blockchain, or worse, other blockchains.

1 hour ago, BuckGup said:

A smart contract with an NFT is just as legally binding as a normal title. So I'm not really sure why people opt to pay more money, wait longer, and be more susceptible to fraud

That is most certanly NOT the case. In my country there is lots of paperwork tied to real estate, I just had to spend a few grands because drawing in a government shelf where not aligned with the layout of my home due to previous owners doing work without proper paperwork. An NFT is as legally binding as a a napkin with "I OWN DAT HOUS" written on it.

 

It's dangerous how crypto/NFT enthusiasts think that by using a blockchain, they are suddenly no longer bound by their country's laws.

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4 minutes ago, 05032-Mendicant-Bias said:

It's dangerous how crypto/NFT enthusiasts think that by using a blockchain, they are suddenly no longer bound by their country's laws.

And if you point out that laws exist it must mean "you are still confused on how NFTs work", lmao

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1 hour ago, Sauron said:

Yeah no shit, it's easier if you don't need a mortgage. How does using NFTs prevent you from needing a loan exactly? They might even make it harder because you'd be taking the loan to buy crypto, not directly to buy a house.

It doesn't prevent you, I was just commenting on how the estate buying process is significantly worse due to the involvement of banks.

1 hour ago, Sauron said:

All it guarantees is that the transaction was carried out correctly, it does absolutely nothing to prevent fraud.

Bruv that is fraud protection what are you on about. Would you rather have no guarantee a transaction was legitimate or essentially an indisputable guarantee the transaction was legitimate? I can photocopy a homes title and make a fake ID of the owner and that's it. I can now royally screw over someone. Opposed to the company checking the validity of the title I presented with the blockchain and immediately see I am lying. So as far as I see it the only people to hate better fraud protection are people actively doing fraud 🤔

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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1 hour ago, joaopt said:

 

Is this true? i'm almost sure it isn't, unless it's a country it some weird laws. You can buy a house from someone but it's only legal if you register the purchase, and for that you need a legal document, and you have to register it in order to pay the taxes for example. I doubt anyone or any country has legalized NFT's as a house register. You can buy it with candy, but you still have to register it and to do it there are requirements and NFT's are certainly not among them.

In my country or state at least all you need is a notary republic to sign a deed to transfer the title. This does cost around $658 and does rely on the government but thanks to COVID this can be done all online without ever having met any of the other parties involved. So really it's up to the discretion of the notary to deem an NFT or more realistically a smart contract as valid. Given the nature that smart contracts can be legally binding and the notary gets paid I doubt they would deny it but it depends on your location a lot. You can buy a home with bitcoins in LA but go to small rural Alabama and they've never even heard of bitcoin

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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Posted
38 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

Bruv that is fraud protection what are you on about. Would you rather have no guarantee a transaction was legitimate or essentially an indisputable guarantee the transaction was legitimate?

Do you really think frauds happen because banks can't tell if a transaction happened or not? Frands happen because someone gets you to willingly give them money by telling you a lie. This can easily happen with blockchain transactions too, except those transactions can't be undone if foul play is discovered so you're SOL if it happens to you.

38 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

I can photocopy a homes title and make a fake ID of the owner and that's it.

You can literally do that with NFTs and the blockchain will be none the wiser. What controls does the blockchain have that prevent you from faking an ID? What are you on about?

38 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

Opposed to the company checking the validity of the title I presented with the blockchain and immediately see I am lying.

How do you know the original mint was actually done by the owner of the house? I could mint your house right now if I wanted to. In fact with your method the rightful owner couldn't even prove they own the house, it would just belong to whomever minted it first...

 

You probably can't even sue the guy if you get defrauded because as far as the law is concerned you only exchanged monopoly money - worse, digital monopoly money.

33 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

In my country or state at least all you need is a notary republic to sign a deed to transfer the title. This does cost around $658 and does rely on the government but thanks to COVID this can be done all online without ever having met any of the other parties involved.

And, crucially, without an NFT which adds nothing of value to the process. It makes the whole thing more expensive due to transaction fees, it prevents you from getting a mortgage which a lot of people need to buy a freaking house and it requires you buy crypto, a rapidly deflating currency that may cause the price of your house to fluctuate incontrollably.

Don't ask to ask, just ask... please 🤨

sudo chmod -R 000 /*

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2 hours ago, Vishera said:

Now i am waiting for some good "Florida man" jokes 😄

In other news, Florida man was behind the Bored Ape Yatch Club

"A high ideal missed by a little, is far better than low ideal that is achievable, yet far less effective"

 

If you think I'm wrong, correct me. If I've offended you in some way tell me what it is and how I can correct it. I want to learn, and along the way one can make mistakes; Being wrong helps you learn what's right.

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Posted

@tikker

 

I just finished reading the whole thing and it feels rather nice to have law professors agree my assessment that they are a solution in search of a problem.

 

Quote

CONCLUSION


The NFT hype promises a new way of giving value to intangible assets. As legal tokens, however, NFTs fail. All legal tokens evolved as a solution to a problem. Negotiable instruments and certificated securities developed to give certainty to the transfer of intangible rights. Deeds of real property developed to prove the transfer of land, an asset that cannot be physically transferred. Bills of lading developed to facilitate transfers of goods in transit. Other “token-like” items such as automobile certificates of title and bailment tickets provide evidence of ownership.


NFTs, however, are a solution in search of a problem. They do not provide any link to an underlying asset, and therefore do not facilitate the transfer of any asset. A blockchain, like a recording system, provides a record of ownership, but in the case of NFTs, all it provides is a record of who owns the NFT, not of who owns any reference asset.

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Posted

I mean ultimately what would be the tangible benefits between an NFT vs just using a database.

 

Sure, one could make an argument that only the owner would be able to transfer the ownership, but at the same time then loans wouldn't work.  So there would still be a physical method of transferring ownership from one person to another (when one party isn't in agreement).  That creates the same issue as of now though, human error being the weak point.

 

I'm more than welcome to be proven or explain to why I am wrong, but people who often tout NFT's I find don't seem to stick around long enough to explain their logic (and the practical aspects on why it would work, while responding to the criticisms).  I think ultimately it's because there isn't much argument that could be made in favor of NFT's over things like government titles.

 

Examples to answer.

Guy takes a loan from the bank and failure to repay.  How does the bank transfer the title when it's in a foreclosure?

What happens when the account password is lost/stolen?

Which NFT are you to trust?  [There is already a bunch of "art" that is being sold where the artist claims that it wasn't them who created the NFT in the first place]

If there is a mechanism to seize NFT's from someone, what is to prevent the current system from happening

3735928559 - Beware of the dead beef

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4 hours ago, Sauron said:

*Snip

I really suggest you learn more about how the blockchain and NFTs work. The questions and concerns you bring up can all be answered if you learned about the material. I don't think hostile forum responses are a good learning environment for anyone as no information I present you will consider as you lack a deep understanding

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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Posted

Somebody suggested using nft's for house titles to legitimize nft's and a short time later this guy sells his house with an nft. 

 

It's meaningless and pointless unless the entire registry goes to one nft system.  

 

People are just tossing around the word nft to pump the schemes and scams that most of this garbage is.  

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I'm going to put it this way, NFT's are stupid. Most People that try to make bank by creating NFT's are scum.

 

Selling a house for NFT's is a huge risk, and people don't realize that an NFT's value can drop off a cliff.

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1 hour ago, BuckGup said:

I really suggest you learn more about how the blockchain and NFTs work. The questions and concerns you bring up can all be answered if you learned about the material. I don't think hostile forum responses are a good learning environment for anyone as no information I present you will consider as you lack a deep understanding

I suggest you need to learn more about how the real world works. Care to comment where these law professors are wrong.

 

Quote

We show that tokenization under the law actually has a long history, backed by practical economic considerations and animated by strong theoretical underpinnings. We also show that NFTs have neither of these attributes. Additionally, our Article surveys a dataset of terms of service from the most prominent NFT platforms in order to exploit both their disconnect from real legal effects and their puzzlingly contradictory promises about the relationships between buyers, seller, and the platform. Our project aims not only to inform current commercial law reform efforts, but it also offers a policy prescription for policing the NFT market.

 

The Property Law of Tokens

 

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15 hours ago, PizzaPuntThomas said:

the benefit of this would be to make selling real estate easier. 

isn't the point of NFTs to give a kickback to the original creator every time the NFT is resold? Doesn't this just mean the creator of the NFT (original real-estate agent) get a cut of every future sale regardless of who sells it? or is it the original owner of the property which gets the cut after it changes hands on the second owner's sale?

 

this is a weird way to sell a house but I can see the idea making sense to people who don't know the point/structure of NFTs

The best gaming PC is the PC you like to game on, how you like to game on it

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Quote

"Buying or selling a house in seconds, without too much fuss, who wouldn't want that? "

Ah yes, I too want to buy a house without ever seeing it in person, inspecting or anything else. That sounds like such a great idea!

 

...

 

This is dumb.

Not to mention, even after you "buy" it, you will still have to file a ton of paper work to change the land title to you. Regardless of what they claim this NFT is, it doesn't affect the city's necessary paperwork that has to be done. So overall you gain nothing doing this, all it does it give wealthy investors a fast way to buy houses without competition (if it's not a scam), just find a house, buy it without needing to make a bid on it and that's that.

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Posted

I guarantee they're still going to go through all the normal legal documents and transfer of ownership that you would normally do when selling a house. The NFT will only be a pointless publicity stunt on top. If the person buying this only gets an NFT and doesn't get the real property deed they've been scammed.

 

It'll be interesting to see what happens in the future when the new owner tries selling the house the traditional and legally valid way but keeps the NFT for themselves. There's no requirement for them to declare that there's an NFT on the house to the new prospective owners.

 

Hopefully it doesn't sell at all, but unfortunately if NFTshills are willing to spend hundreds of thousands on an ugly picture then I'm sure there will be ones willing to buy a house even if just to prove that their internet tokens are more than just pictures of monkeys.

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When I bought a house, the stack of paperwork you had to sign was huge, NFTs wouldnt do anything for that. Its all BS.....just another person using "NFT" as a fad and buzzword to be caught by the media and get their 5 minutes of fame.

I refuse to read threads whose author does not know how to remove the caps lock! 

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22 hours ago, RejZoR said:

Can't wait until someone copy & pastes the house lol 😄

Right click - save as, for better quality.

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14 hours ago, BuckGup said:

Bruv that is fraud protection what are you on about. Would you rather have no guarantee a transaction was legitimate or essentially an indisputable guarantee the transaction was legitimate?

Given there are no checks to see if the person minting and NFT actually is the current owner of a work, determines, that is a lie.

 

https://www.thegamer.com/artists-share-their-frustration-over-stolen-artwork-becoming-nfts/

 

yes the transaction "happened" but it is not legitimate if they don't hold the original authority to actually sell it. you can't sell someone elses work.....

🌲🌲🌲

 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Elijah Kamski said:

It's our house.

 

"A high ideal missed by a little, is far better than low ideal that is achievable, yet far less effective"

 

If you think I'm wrong, correct me. If I've offended you in some way tell me what it is and how I can correct it. I want to learn, and along the way one can make mistakes; Being wrong helps you learn what's right.

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9 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

who buys a house without touring it first

the same people who buy a currency that can be produced out of nothing and is backed by hopes and dreams.

🌲🌲🌲

 

 

 

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