Micro$oft Winblows 11 has less than 0.21% adoption rates from compatible PCs, says Lansweeper

[jagdtigger]

36 minutes ago, Commodus said:

it makes Edge look like sunshine and lolllipops

Except they are trying to make it the new IE.....

[Commodus]

19 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Except they are trying to make it the new IE.....

Not quite. Obviously Microsoft wants to hook its services and make it hard to switch away, but it's still based on a far more standardized engine and considerably more open than IE ever was.

[jagdtigger]

3 minutes ago, Commodus said:

Not quite. Obviously Microsoft wants to hook its services and make it hard to switch away, but it's still based on a far more standardized engine and considerably more open than IE ever was.

Wanna bet if they achieve dominance next up on the agenda is proprietary functions to solidify the lock-in?

[Radium_Angel]

4 hours ago, RejZoR said:

Who even still uses any IE feature? I haven't touched any compatibility setting for like 15 years or how long there is Firefox...

A whole ton of gov't ops...

[Kisai]

5 hours ago, RejZoR said:

Who even still uses any IE feature? I haven't touched any compatibility setting for like 15 years or how long there is Firefox...

Corporations who have things written Java that are launched/activated/browser-resource-dependent. 

 

If you've been here a while, you know I take more pot-shots at Java and things that evolved out of Java (Like Android,) because while the "JVM" might have been the right idea (similar with Flash, Silverlight, C# run-anywhere), the consequences of this, and technology that evolved out of it like Emscripten/WASM have essentially created a security/malware quagmire that people naïvely assume can be sandboxed away. Not the case.

 

The reason Flash is gone, is not because of Adobe, it's because Chrome-and-relatives removed the NPAPI (The plugin system that originated with Netscape Navigator), and then removed the native plugin system in favor of WASM replacing plugins. Right idea (removing the need for native plugins), wrong implementation (now people just write malware in their favorite programming language and transcode it to Javascript+WASM, and no AV product picks it up.) The plugin system for MSIE, ActiveX, is a curse, and pretty much corporations have all their proprietary software packages written in ActiveX. So getting rid of MSIE forced an upgrade (and subsequent new license costs on everything that was primarily ActiveX or Java (such as every Oracle product.) 

 

Apple threw the first punch by ensuring that Flash wasn't available on the iPhone. This has lead to some conflicts with getting "any" scripting/programming language on the iPhone/iPad, since the typical OSS way of scripting things is to download thousands of third party untested libraries to do simple "hello world" apps (yes this is an exaggeration, but that that much, don't @ me.)  For a script/programming language to work on the iPhone, the entire language, libraries and all must be one package, and not capable of downloading updates to program code itself.

 

Apple has pretty much been on the right-side-of-history when it comes to privacy and security, but not necessarily in the way they've gone about it. Which is why Apple makes hardware that lasts 4x longer than competition, but they've only ever put out extremely conservative devices, hardware that doesn't appeal to high-end gaming, but also not priced where the average person can afford to be in the Apple ecosystem. So by not having high-quality budget devices, we make no headway against the swiss-cheese security/non-existent privacy of Android and security-weak Windows devices.

 

And hence, all the software publishers moved to HTML5-"native" apps, which are HTML5-in-name-only, and mostly piles of javascript, some of it transcoded from another language, and we've been thrown back 20 years in performance.

[Jito463]

On 12/8/2021 at 6:42 AM, Rune said:

Until I don't have to sign up for an account on a fresh copy of W11Home, I will stay on 10.

It's the same procedure with 11 as it has been with 8/8.1/10.  Disconnect from the internet until your account is created, then you can connect and update like usual.  I know 10 has this annoying habit of prompting you to "finish your setup" about 3 days after install, which again requires disconnecting from the internet and clicking continue.  I assume 11 has the same process built in.  Otherwise, it works just fine.  When we set up new computers at work for customers, we always go through those steps to create a local user account for them.

On 12/9/2021 at 10:48 PM, Kisai said:

So by not having high-quality budget devices, we make no headway against the swiss-cheese security/non-existent privacy of Android and security-weak Windows devices.

I'll take the vulnerable nature of Android over the locked down platform that is iOS.  If it's my phone/tablet, I want the freedom to do whatever I like with it.  Yes, I know jailbreaking is a thing, but that has it's own set of issues, and doesn't resolve all of the problems with how buttoned up iOS is.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Kilrah
Removed politics

[jagdtigger]

4 hours ago, Jito463 said:

It's the same procedure with 11 as it has been with 8/8.1/10.

In case of home no, you have to use tricks to force it into making a local account but keeping it offline aint working anymore.

[mr moose]

On 12/10/2021 at 8:48 AM, Kisai said:

 things that evolved out of Java (Like Android,)

I don't think android evolved out of java at all, it is and always was linux,  it has application framework written in java for java apps but it's libraries and api are C.

 

 

[Tristerin]

We have one buddy on discord with Win 11 (he's excited to test it lawl)

 

The biggest issue he has is that the sound is always adjusting itself upon boot up, so his mic settings etc have to be redone each time.

[Jito463]

4 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

In case of home no, you have to use tricks to force it into making a local account but keeping it offline aint working anymore.

I'll test it again later today at work to see if it's changed, but the last time I tested it I was able to get a local account created by just being offline.  Though I will admit that we haven't done much with 11 yet.

[jagdtigger]

51 minutes ago, Jito463 said:

today at work

I was talking about home not pro/enterprise...

[Jito463]

4 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

I was talking about home not pro/enterprise...

Yeah, that's what I was going to test.  I work at a computer store, not a large enterprise.  We do both Home & Pro installs.

[Kisai]

17 hours ago, mr moose said:

I don't think android evolved out of java at all, it is and always was linux,  it has application framework written in java for java apps but it's libraries and api are C.

 

 

Are you forgetting the Oracle Lawsuit already?

 

The source code suggests that's never been the case. What makes "Android" , "Android" and not Ubuntu is written in Java. That's why Android does everything worse than iOS, other Linux Distro's and Windows. Hell, you couldn't even write native C programs at all until NDK r6, because it was missing so much basic functionality. Google, really, desperately, wanted developers to write everything in Java, and the consequence of that was everything written for Android, even today, needs all these java bits to communicate with other parts of the Android software. This mess exists nowhere else except on interpreted scripting languages like Python and Node.js, where you have to quite literately have a C compiler present to compile the bindings yourself, and distributing your program becomes impossible if you had to compile anything with GPL/LGPL parts to it.

 

There's so many ways Android shot it self in the foot, and OSS GPL/LGPL licences shot themselves in the foot that just makes development too much effort for no payoff. Develop your games on Windows, develop your mobile apps on iOS, give Android and Linux lip-service if you don't mind it being pirated. But never make Android or Linux the Tier 1 development target or you will never make any money from your product or service.

 

Hell, the entire reason "cloud services" and "live services/games-as-a-service" have become such a thing, is because no money can be made from free software (like mobile games on Android.) It's actually rather ballsy of companies to both charge for the software, and then still demand a pound of flesh to keep using the software past the initial purchase. 

 

Which in Windows 11, The TPM might just be the beginning of the end of having anything stored on the computer. Because why would you want to store anything on the device that might be lost if the machine is lost/stolen/spilled-coffee-on-it? The TPM makes rescuing the data no longer an option, and just here comes cloud-services to save the day by backing up everything, now if only you saved your key somewhere...

 

See the problem?

 

When people offer Linux as an alternative, or MacOS as an alternative to Windows, they forget there's an insanely large cost to switching, from financial reasons (like licenses), user experience relearning, to software just not being available natively for the platform. This is why people tend to use Windows or MacOS and don't switch, even if there are cheaper options on the other platform. Likewise, nobody is going to switch from iOS to Android without a gun to their head. There has to be some compelling reason, and there has yet to be one. Android is the gum-and-bailing-wire platform that Google katamari'd together to steal RIM's lunch, and Apple beat them with a better product. Java should have been completely killed and deleted from Android the second Oracle sued them. Why google keeps the Java parts alive is entirely because they're in too deep now.

 

[jagdtigger]

2 hours ago, Kisai said:

now if only you saved your key somewhere

MS already backing up the recovery key into your ms account, so the only hurdle is the craptastic trend of using soldered ssd's....

 

 

As for cloud i dont think its really a good option, it becomes prohibitively expensive very quick.

[mr moose]

4 hours ago, Kisai said:

Are you forgetting the Oracle Lawsuit already?

 

 

 

No,  google won because all google did was use snippets of java their application framework.  Of course they wanted it to support java.  It was deemed fair use (not that I believe much of what US courts decide these days,  but the defense was fairly straight forward and given android is open source anyone with half a skill can look at it and see what was java and what was linux). 

 

Android itself is a linux kernel not java. The linux foundation considers android an official distro and Linus Torvalds expects android and Linux would come back to a common kernel one day.   There is a reason parts of android have been implemented in the linux kernal. 

 

 

 

[Kisai]

4 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

MS already backing up the recovery key into your ms account, so the only hurdle is the craptastic trend of using soldered ssd's....

 

 

As for cloud i dont think its really a good option, it becomes prohibitively expensive very quick.

Storing the key in the cloud defeats the entire purpose of having this TPM and encryption nonsense in the first place. It's just like the "software SIM card" for cell phones, and "software smartcard" for payment cards. Quit defeating the purpose of the security device.

 

Like I'll give them one thing, The point of encrypting a device is so people can not eavesdrop on the data on the device. The problem is that we've hit the fun little problem that started the minute we started digitizing and compressing everything.

 

"How do I read this, while knowing nothing of the algorithm used to compress, let alone encrypt it."

 

The vast majority of people, have no reason to encrypt their devices, and would rather have the performance gain from the crypto features being turned off. We're having them forced upon us because people are stupid and keep using "password" as their password. So the TPM solves that by making there be no passwords to save or know. Just encryption keys and system-generated-impossible-to-guess passwords, and in order for that system to exist, the file system needs to be encrypted.

 

 

2 hours ago, mr moose said:

No,  google won because all google did was use snippets of java their application framework.  Of course they wanted it to support java.  It was deemed fair use (not that I believe much of what US courts decide these days,  but the defense was fairly straight forward and given android is open source anyone with half a skill can look at it and see what was java and what was linux). 

Google could have not won it, and then what? All Android products are illegal. Only Apple smartphones. I don't think that's the outcome we want, even if I like Apple products, because what pushes innovation is having a worse/old product on the market to go "look at that crap the competition is selling you. for the same money you could buy our product and it will last 3 times longer."

 

2 hours ago, mr moose said:

Android itself is a linux kernel not java. The linux foundation considers android an official distro and Linus Torvalds expects android and Linux would come back to a common kernel one day.   There is a reason parts of android have been implemented in the linux kernal. 

 

No "Android" is the OS. "The Linux Kernel" is the Kernel. Linux is not, and has never been an OS itself. The entire Linux philosophy is that there is no OS. It's just a collection of software that hitched itself to the Linux Kernel. That's why you can't run binaries made for Ubuntu on Debian and Gentoo any more than you can run Android binaries on anything that is not an Android device without an emulator. They have different goals.

 

Which doesn't change the point that the part of Android that makes it Android, relies on Java, and that's also what makes developers not support it as a Tier 1 platform. It's literately a mess to setup a development kit, needing Java to program in C or use Unity. No other platform requires you to have two or more programming languages installed just to do "Hello World."

 

iOS/MacOS, you don't have to write your C apps with a Swift binding. Windows you don't write the GUI widgets in C# for you C apps. You can grab any APK off the internet and see a pile of Java stuff in the distribution, entirely to deal with the Android UI nonsense.

 

[jagdtigger]

27 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Storing the key in the cloud defeats the entire purpose of having this TPM and encryption nonsense in the first place

Tell that to ms, even tpm isnt secure because it talks to the cpu via an unencrypted channel....

[mr moose]

39 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Storing the key in the cloud defeats the entire purpose of having this TPM and encryption nonsense in the first place. It's just like the "software SIM card" for cell phones, and "software smartcard" for payment cards. Quit defeating the purpose of the security device.

 

Like I'll give them one thing, The point of encrypting a device is so people can not eavesdrop on the data on the device. The problem is that we've hit the fun little problem that started the minute we started digitizing and compressing everything.

 

"How do I read this, while knowing nothing of the algorithm used to compress, let alone encrypt it."

 

The vast majority of people, have no reason to encrypt their devices, and would rather have the performance gain from the crypto features being turned off. We're having them forced upon us because people are stupid and keep using "password" as their password. So the TPM solves that by making there be no passwords to save or know. Just encryption keys and system-generated-impossible-to-guess passwords, and in order for that system to exist, the file system needs to be encrypted.

 

 

Google could have not won it, and then what? All Android products are illegal. Only Apple smartphones. I don't think that's the outcome we want, even if I like Apple products, because what pushes innovation is having a worse/old product on the market to go "look at that crap the competition is selling you. for the same money you could buy our product and it will last 3 times longer."

 

No "Android" is the OS. "The Linux Kernel" is the Kernel. Linux is not, and has never been an OS itself. The entire Linux philosophy is that there is no OS. It's just a collection of software that hitched itself to the Linux Kernel. That's why you can't run binaries made for Ubuntu on Debian and Gentoo any more than you can run Android binaries on anything that is not an Android device without an emulator. They have different goals.

 

Which doesn't change the point that the part of Android that makes it Android, relies on Java, and that's also what makes developers not support it as a Tier 1 platform. It's literately a mess to setup a development kit, needing Java to program in C or use Unity. No other platform requires you to have two or more programming languages installed just to do "Hello World."

 

iOS/MacOS, you don't have to write your C apps with a Swift binding. Windows you don't write the GUI widgets in C# for you C apps. You can grab any APK off the internet and see a pile of Java stuff in the distribution, entirely to deal with the Android UI nonsense.

 

They won the case because the API's they used were not sufficiently unique to be clearly covered by copyright law,  hence a judges desire to call it fair use instead of a violation or try to and disseminate whether an API (which is essentially just a quick way to invoke many other processes and not a creative work in it's own right) is copyrightable.  Many experts in the industry chimed in pointing out that if google loses this one then essentially all software that relies on an API will need to pay oracle or Unix (or who ever owns the first few API's with even a semblance of ability to run a different language) a license fee because there isn't a great deal of difference in how they are written, just what they point to.   

 

 

Google used java as it's code of choice for developers to create apps with.  Android itself does not run java.

 

https://theiconic.tech/android-java-fdbd55aadc51

 

Quote

 

Android relies quite heavily on Java for building apps. If memory serves, this was actually done deliberately. I recall reading somewhere that Java was chosen to take advantage of the existing tooling/ developer base which makes sense strategically speaking.

Where it starts to diverge is in the toolchain when bytecode is transcoded to Android specific flavours, while Java-esque, is still different. There is currently more than one toolchain for doing this, however the end result is more or less the same with respect to the Java source/ bytecode. It is replaced with dex bytecode and that is what ends up being deployed to the device. The runtime then determines when and how that dex becomes machine code.

 

 

So basically java is there for app developers, not for the OS.   There is a whole layer of shit happening between Java and android itself.

 

 

[Kilrah]

53 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Storing the key in the cloud defeats the entire purpose of having this TPM and encryption nonsense in the first place. It's just like the "software SIM card" for cell phones, and "software smartcard" for payment cards. Quit defeating the purpose of the security device.

No. If you have access to the credentials to log in to the cloud then you can already log in to the machine itself. 

Bitlocker won't do anything when you can log in to the machine in the first place, its only purpose is when you don't, and try to take the drive out to access the data on it using another machine.

[Kisai]

3 hours ago, mr moose said:

 

Google used java as it's code of choice for developers to create apps with.  Android itself does not run java.

 

https://theiconic.tech/android-java-fdbd55aadc51

 

 

So basically java is there for app developers, not for the OS.   There is a whole layer of shit happening between Java and android itself.

 

 

You're cherry picking details. Yes, the Android devices are not "running on Java", but they are still Java code, and require Sun's Java tools to do any development. Google expressly wanted people to only develop Java apps for Android and had to be dragged kicking and screaming into releasing the NDK at all. It was only when nobody would play ball and wanted to port their software from iOS to Android did Google release the NDK, and the NDK still relies on the Oracle Java in the development.

 

It does not matter that the Java is compiled into something different than Java Bytecode. That's splitting the same hairs as Unity compiling C# into IL2CPP code. You're not developing games in C++ on Unity natively, only C# is supported.

 

I distinctly remember it being a supreme pain in the ass to setup the Android development environment and and basically abandoned any attempt to develop software on it because the Java portion is hell to make work.

 

[mr moose]

9 hours ago, Kisai said:

You're cherry picking details. Yes, the Android devices are not "running on Java", but they are still Java code, and require Sun's Java tools to do any development. Google expressly wanted people to only develop Java apps for Android and had to be dragged kicking and screaming into releasing the NDK at all. It was only when nobody would play ball and wanted to port their software from iOS to Android did Google release the NDK, and the NDK still relies on the Oracle Java in the development.

 

It does not matter that the Java is compiled into something different than Java Bytecode. That's splitting the same hairs as Unity compiling C# into IL2CPP code. You're not developing games in C++ on Unity natively, only C# is supported.

 

I distinctly remember it being a supreme pain in the ass to setup the Android development environment and and basically abandoned any attempt to develop software on it because the Java portion is hell to make work.

 

 

Developing apps for android in java is not the same as developing android from java.

[steelo]

On 12/3/2021 at 10:24 AM, BuckGup said:

Windows 10 forever shoved down their throats and then out of no where windows 11 with no media coverage or mass ads. Of course no one uses it

They were advertising the hell out of Windows 11 a month or so ago...then, all of a sudden the commercials disappeared.

[Donut417]

Just now, steelo said:

They were advertising the hell out of Windows 11 a month or so ago...then, all of a sudden the commercials disappeared.

I haven't really noticed too many ads. But I do see computers with its pre loaded or stating that a free upgrade will be available soon. 

[steelo]

1 minute ago, Donut417 said:

I haven't really noticed too many ads. But I do see computers with its pre loaded or stating that a free upgrade will be available soon. 

Back in October-November it was every other commercial here, they seemed to be heavily advertising during NFL games.

[Donut417]

5 minutes ago, steelo said:

Back in October-November it was every other commercial here, they seemed to be heavily advertising during NFL games.

Oh. Yeah I dont watch sports. I dont watch Live TV, what Live TV I record I skip commercials. I use Ad Blockers. The only ads I see are Youtube ads when I use Youtube on my Fire Stick, or when I play mobile games and those ads are related to more games.