China orders crypto mining shut downs in more regions

[Ashleyyyy]

1 hour ago, RollinLower said:

and rightfully so. all their reasons for banning crypto are pretty stupid.

which reason in particular? that it's very damaging for the environment or that it's insanely volatile or that it's uncontrollable by government therefore very easy to do criminal things with?

[RollinLower]

6 minutes ago, Ashley MLP Fangirl said:

which reason in particular? that it's very damaging for the environment or that it's insanely volatile or that it's uncontrollable by government therefore very easy to do criminal things with?

his main reason to ban the coins is because he thinks a crash is inevitable, and he isn't even trying for any kind of regulation, he just wants to ban it because "crypto is scary mmkay?"

imo Pieter Hasekamp is a pannekoek.

[jagdtigger]

4 minutes ago, RollinLower said:

his main reason to ban the coins is because he thinks a crash is inevitable, and he isn't even trying for any kind of regulation,

No amount of regulation can fix the insane power consumption, nor its volatility, and definitely cant prevent the imminent collapse of something that does not have a base.

[RollinLower]

2 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

No amount of regulation can fix the insane power consumption, nor its volatility, and definitely cant prevent the imminent collapse of something that does not have a base.

crypto's power consumption pales in comparison to the global power consumption of datacenters. i recon you don't mind those?

[Vishera]

I am just thinking about those juicy GPUs

[jagdtigger]

5 minutes ago, RollinLower said:

crypto's power consumption pales in comparison to the global power consumption of datacenters. i recon you don't mind those?

Apple vs orange....

Compare the consumption of the current banking system to that of the cryptos, then we can talk.

[RollinLower]

2 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Apple vs orange....

Compare the consumption of the current banking system to that of the cryptos, then we can talk.

but it's the same though. you tolerate DC's to burn through our ozone layer because they give you internet and you personally benefit. you just don't like mining because you don't personally benefit.

[Kisai]

10 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

No amount of regulation can fix the insane power consumption, nor its volatility, and definitely cant prevent the imminent collapse of something that does not have a base.

Regulation can solve the insane power consumption, but it would require world-wide efforts to not just shift the burden to a country that has cheap power but poor infrastructure.

 

This chart is from the bottom half of this page:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/263492/electricity-prices-in-selected-countries/

India and Mexico have the same cost as China for energy.

 

You have to remember that the state, in all countries, subsidize the energy infrastructure in some way, so if you suddenly have shipping containers full of antminers in mexico burning through as much energy as the major city, you're in for a reckoning.

 

The most logical place to "get away with" mining crypto coins is geothermal generation in places that already sit on top of volcanoes, in that respect it's simply harnessing power that is otherwise not being generated from a source that is just going keep going. So if a cryptofarm is actually willing to build a geothermal plant, and sell the excess energy back to the city, fine, do that. But till then, you're going to keep seeing them buy coal plants and burning as much coal as possible without a regulation to push the cost of coal generation far out of reach of clean energy sources.

 

As for the other two points, volatility and actual use by the state, nah. Any state that decides to base their economy on a crypto coin, is going to end up bankrupt because there's no liquidity in things like bitcoin. You can't just sell the coins at the drop of a hat and get the value you think it should be worth. If anything, if you try to offload cryptocoins too fast, you crash the price and since there are no "circuit breakers" to speak of for crypto coins, they can literately go from $30,000 to $3 in a matter of seconds.

[tikker]

21 minutes ago, RollinLower said:

his main reason to ban the coins is because he thinks a crash is inevitable, and he isn't even trying for any kind of regulation, he just wants to ban it because "crypto is scary mmkay?"

imo Pieter Hasekamp is a pannekoek.

Yep. From what I read the main reasons were it's "not as safe and anonymous as thought" (based on the recent seize in the US) and that its volatility will lose people who join late money and make it not a good store of value. Bitcoin being anonymous is just a very widespread misunderstanding and apparently busting drug money means the currency is unsafe? The other argument also makes little sense to me as it's not a store of value and losing money holds for any investment or even gambling.

 

9 minutes ago, RollinLower said:

but it's the same though. you tolerate DC's to burn through our ozone layer because they give you internet and you personally benefit. you just don't like mining because you don't personally benefit.

I mean yes there are many fronts that absolutely need drastic power cust reduction, but the power consumption of mining (from these large scale operations) is getting ridiculous and out of hand relative to what they offer. And I'm saying this as a miner (single GPU) / crypto dabbler myself.

[jagdtigger]

16 minutes ago, RollinLower said:

but it's the same though. you tolerate DC's to burn through our ozone layer because they give you internet and you personally benefit. you just don't like mining because you don't personally benefit.

*sigh* No its not, you are trying to compare a thing that serves vast amount of ppl and companies with something that has no real purpose and serves an extremely small minority. Then you mix in something that has nothing to with DC's, AFAIK none of them run their own power plant.

  

8 minutes ago, Kisai said:

The most logical place to "get away with" mining crypto coins is geothermal generation

Geothermal generation is good in theory, but i would be vary of it for now, no-one has any idea what the long term consequences will be. Id say until we can get fusion running the best bet is nuclear.

Edited June 22, 2021 by jagdtigger

[RollinLower]

1 minute ago, jagdtigger said:

AFAIK none of them run their own power plant

microsoft bought all surrounding wind turbines around their datacenter in NL near the A7, and is currently in the process of building a windpark which is subsidized by the NL government, which will only power this DC. my tax euro's are directly funding this btw.

sure, that's wind energy, but windturbines cannot be recycled. and that's just 1 DC i can think of, i recon in less regulated countries they get away with a lot more.

 

anyway, that's beside the point. i'm talking big picture here. in the end it's making something out of electricity. be it crypto or be it DC services. the one is just as bad for the environment as the other, even surpassing commercial flights. but it's widely tolerated because people widely benefit. people also widely benefit from crypto, but people keep being salty about it. sure it's bad for the environment, and ASICS cannot be used for anything else, but so is the proprietary stuff hyperscalers use (opencompute anyone?)

[12345678]

13 hours ago, BuckGup said:

It's funny the only reason they are doing this is they want to have total control and knowledge of their money so that's a win for Bitcoin. If anything this will move mining into the US, the difficulty will drop, and ASICs will flood the market. So basically it's a win win for everyone except the Chinese. Of course uneducated investors will think the world is ending and sell everything they own so it's a great time to buy

that's not really for it

they are stricting cryptos, because they were used to circumvent the limitations of own exchangers (you can't exchange more than 100 000 rmb yearly into other fiats)

 

 

[BuckGup]

27 minutes ago, 12345678 said:

that's not really for it

they are stricting cryptos, because they were used to circumvent the limitations of own exchangers (you can't exchange more than 100 000 rmb yearly into other fiats)

 

 

Again more control by the CCP

[jagdtigger]

5 hours ago, RollinLower said:

the one is just as bad for the environment as the other, even surpassing commercial flights.

Again, you are comparing something that serves millions of ppl with something that does the same to a few hundred with comparable energy consumption (yes i intentionally edged it out just to show the differences).

[thechinchinsong]

14 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Again, you are comparing something that serves millions of ppl with something that does the same to a few hundred with comparable energy consumption (yes i intentionally edged it out just to show the differences).

Comparing something that the entire world literally depends on in order to keep modern society running, vs a technology that has only benefitted select few. Yeah I think I'll stick with supporting datacenters, just like I support using gasoline in my car and keeping fossil fuel power plants online (at least for the near future) so society doesn't collapse.

[Brooksie359]

15 hours ago, Ravendarat said:

Is it not reasonable to assume these people with the giant mines will just move them to another country and set up shop? I mean these guys have tremendous amounts of money, I cant see them just saying "oh well funs over". Sure there might be a brief drop off but I think this is gonna all pick up again in short order

The problem is what place is going to have cheap electricity and enough electricity to feul that farm. It's not any old house can power the giant farms they were running. 

[Jet_ski]

7 hours ago, BuckGup said:

Again more control by the CCP

That's a politically loaded view though. I would say it's bad for cryptos to present themselves as a threat to any government's authority. Because that'll make them a target. If it ever comes to that, governments control the internet so they'll always have the "kill switch" power over the cryptos and everything else.

[miagisan]

13 hours ago, RollinLower said:

but it's the same though. you tolerate DC's to burn through our ozone layer because they give you internet and you personally benefit. you just don't like mining because you don't personally benefit.

Data centers provide  services (often vital) to billions of people world wide.   Miners benefit only themselves and an extremely small minority of the population.   This argument is probably the worst I have seen in a while.   

[Moonzy]

34 minutes ago, miagisan said:

Data centers provide  services (often vital) to billions of people world wide.

other than medical records, i dont see why watching youtube is vital

there are also data centers that only serve ~100 people, some niche dying mmorpg for example

i can continue cherry picking examples but it's pointless, pot calling a kettle black

 

34 minutes ago, miagisan said:

Miners benefit only themselves and an extremely small minority of the population.

how small is "small"?

how many people is holding crypto? im assuming you know since you came up with this statement, unless it's from your behind

[miagisan]

13 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

other than medical records, i dont see why watching youtube is vital

there are also data centers that only serve ~100 people, some niche dying mmorpg for example

i can continue cherry picking examples but it's pointless, pot calling a kettle black

 

how small is "small"?

how many people is holding crypto? im assuming you know since you came up with this statement, unless it's from your behind

So you are saying emails, financial records, medical records, government and security information, scientific and research information, are non vital? Those are just the first things that come to mind.   Everything is stored on data centers.  

 

And yes miners percentage is tiny, almost non existent percentage to, oh, I don't know, the rest of the world.

[Moonzy]

Just now, miagisan said:

So you are saying financial records, medical records, government and security information, scientific and research information, are non vital? Those are just the first things that come to mind.   Everything is stored on data centers. 

so non-vital stuff can just go?

 

1 minute ago, miagisan said:

And yes miners compared almost the entire digital world is tiny, almost non existent percentage to, oh, I don't know, the rest of the world.

so are people using LTT forum, which is absolutely a minority and non-vital

you still havent produced a number, or even an educated guesstimate, btw

 

it's kinda pointless to tell people what to do with electricity, people do what people want

like gaming, browsing, procrastinating, whatever

when you start riding on your moral high horse, you'd be better be sure that everything you do is accepted by everyone else or you're just another hypocrite

[KnoT]

18 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

there are also data centers that only serve ~100 people, some niche dying mmorpg for example

 

This is easly done by ONE dedicated hardware box with 1 CPU and some ram that scales its power usage according to the demand, not entire DC what are you on ?

[Moonzy]

Just now, KnoT said:

This is easly done by ONE dedicated hardware box with 1 CPU and some ram that scales its power usage according to the demand no entire DC what are you on ?

it's still consuming power to serve a minority of people, that's the point we're discussing on, no?

kinda moot point honestly, refer to my previous post

[KnoT]

Just now, Moonzy said:

it's still consuming power to serve a minority of people, that's the point we're discussing on, no?

kinda moot point honestly, refer to my previous post

Yeah its using hundreds of wats at peak to serve ~100ppl vs many KWs to serve, a dozen all the time. 

[Moonzy]

1 minute ago, KnoT said:

Yeah its using hundreds of wats at peak to serve ~100ppl vs many KWs to serve, a dozen all the time. 

they're doing different things though

it's like saying browsing youtube uses less energy than AAA gaming, so AAA gaming is bad

 

so anyways, using less energy is not bad but using more makes u bad? is that what you're arguing about?