Don't build a ryzen system if you don't already have some sort of graphics card

[curiousmind34]

Most of the cpu reviews in the past 2 years recommend ryzen over intel because of better price to performance, so I understand why first time builders would want to build a ryzen system. They realize the graphics card they want is out of stock, so they instead go out and buy a $50 gt 710 and wait for the card they want to come in stock.

Let's compare prices for ryzen 5000, and lets compare prices(with an extra 50 dollars for a gt 710) and intel 10th gen 

Note: I didn't add ryzen 9 because neither of them were in stock

 

i7-10700k - $327

I9 10900K- $467

 

r5-5600x- $350

r7 5800x- $500

As you can see, adding the gt 710 made the ryzens more expensive than intel. Even though the single core performance of ryzen 5000 is 11%, you are paying 11% more and losing two cores. With 11th gen, intel might be more worth it even without going out and buying a gt 710.

You might think that you might bypass this $50 tax by going with an g series chip, but the prices of those have increased sharply.

 

i3 10100 - $124

 

3200g- $165 (originally $99)

 

3400g- $250 (orignially $150)

 

the i3 10100 is 20% faster than the 3200g and 15% faster than the 3400g. Even at original msrp intel was close, but now, the g series chips and worse than going out a gt 710 anyway.
Basically, for first time builders who might not already have any sort of graphics card, whether you get a cheap one for ryzen or you go with a g series chip, you would be better off getting intel, and even more better off waiting for 11th gen.

But some may say that the integrated graphics on the g series chips are better than intel uhd graphics. That is true. However, 11th gen desktop cpus coming later this month will have xe graphics and have even better value.

 

 

Edit: I should clarify that this is only the case as long as graphics card (and to some extent cpu) supplies are non-existant.

Edit 2: With Intel, you are going to have to sacrifice a good bit motherboard quality if you want to get same motherboard prices as AMD

[riklaunim]

Such price comparisons are flawed as pricing is so dynamic it's not only country specific but quite often also region specific and week specific. People may also want features of the "more expensive" product as well. And there can be more price differentiating factors as well - like RAM kits and motherboards.

 

(and it's funny how my PC is gaining value as it ages...)

[IkeaGnome]

So just because the 5600 and the 5800 aren't APU's they're worse per dollar? Keep in mind you're still buying a GPU with the 10700k and the 10900k. It's more a lesson in patience...

 

[dizmo]

You're forgetting motherboard cost. Which is generally quite a bit more expensive with Intel.

[curiousmind34]

True, if people were patient they should just wait and go with ryzen 5000/ nvidia 30 series. I'm talking to the people who need a system now and slot in some cheap graphics card which kills some of the value prop of the cpu.

 

1 minute ago, Voluspa said:

So just because the 5600 and the 5800 aren't APU's they're worse per dollar? Keep in mind you're still buying a GPU with the 10700k and the 10900k. It's more a lesson in patience...

 

 

[IkeaGnome]

Just now, curiousmind34 said:

True, if people were patient they should just wait and go with ryzen 5000/ nvidia 30 series. I'm talking to the people who need a system now and slot in some cheap graphics card which kills some of the value prop of the cpu.

 

 

And then as state above, throw in the motherboard cost and it's pretty much a wash. Keep in mind the 5600 is 6c 12t compared to 8/16 of the 10700k and trades blows with it in gaming and rendering.... 

[The_russian]

This is ignoring the option of buying a used card instead of a new gt 710, then reselling it for the same price (or higher if you initially got a good deal). It's a little riskier with the current market than it was before, but if you have cards being sold locally that don't have an astronomical price, that is a better option than buying a new gt 710 in my opinion. 

Edited March 5, 2021 by The_russian
edited for clarity

[curiousmind34]

Just now, The_russian said:

This is ignoring the option of buying a used card instead of a new gt 710, then reselling it for the same price (or higher if you initially got a good deal). It's a little riskier with the current market, but if you have cards being sold locally that don't have an astronomical price, that is a good option. 

True, I didn't account for them because used parts is its whole own story. I am just comparing two completely brand new system, but getting cards from another seller at a lower price is a way to lower the extra price you pay for a video output for a few months or so

[8-Bit Ninja]

4 minutes ago, curiousmind34 said:

True, I didn't account for them because used parts is its whole own story. I am just comparing two completely brand new system, but getting cards from another seller at a lower price is a way to lower the extra price you pay for a video output for a few months or so

Most people could probably get a crappy old card off a friend for dirt cheap as well, I have a oem gtx 660 and a radeon hd 7870 that i'd just give away if someone need a card to tide them over 

[Levent]

Prices from PCPP

10700K = $323.

Hyper 212 Evo = $30.

Cheapest Z series motherboard (Z490 phantom gaming 4, ATX) = $150.

Platform dependent expenses = $503

 

5600X = $310.

ATX board with Zen3 bios update (B450 Aorus Elite V2, also ATX and can go MUCH cheaper [or newer chipset for around same price] if you want)  = $110

GT710 from amazon = $50 (actually less).

Platform dependent expenses = $470.

 

I dont think you have a valid point here. AMD wins in this argument every time when builds are done with close performing CPUs due to how flexible AMDs socket is.

[Downkey]

30 minutes ago, curiousmind34 said:

Most of the cpu reviews in the past 2 years recommend ryzen over intel because of better price to performance, so I understand why first time builders would want to build a ryzen system. They realize the graphics card they want is out of stock, so they instead go out and buy a $50 gt 710 and wait for the card they want to come in stock.

Let's compare prices for ryzen 5000, and lets compare prices(with an extra 50 dollars for a gt 710) and intel 10th gen 

Note: I didn't add ryzen 9 because neither of them were in stock

 

i7-10700k - $327

I9 10900K- $467

 

r5-5600x- $350

r7 5800x- $500

As you can see, adding the gt 710 made the ryzens more expensive than intel. Even though the single core performance of ryzen 5000 is 11%, you are paying 11% more and losing two cores. With 11th gen, intel might be more worth it even without going out and buying a gt 710.

You might think that you might bypass this $50 tax by going with an g series chip, but the prices of those have increased sharply.

 

i3 10100 - $124

 

3200g- $165 (originally $99)

 

3400g- $250 (orignially $150)

 

the i3 10100 is 20% faster than the 3200g and 15% faster than the 3400g. Even at original msrp intel was close, but now, the g series chips and worse than going out a gt 710 anyway.
Basically, for first time builders who might not already have any sort of graphics card, whether you get a cheap one for ryzen or you go with a g series chip, you would be better off getting intel, and even more better off waiting for 11th gen.

But some may say that the integrated graphics on the g series chips are better than intel uhd graphics. That is true. However, 11th gen desktop cpus coming later this month will have xe graphics and have even better value.

 

 

Edit: I should clarify that this is only the case as long as graphics card (and to some extent cpu) supplies are non-existant.

Edit 2: With Intel, you are going to have to sacrifice a good bit motherboard quality if you want to get same motherboard prices as AMD

Motherboards are much more expensive with intel and in a lot of cases you have to buy a cooler

[TetraSky]

Yeah... The GPU shortage is insane and it makes no sense to build a PC today unless you already have a GPU or plan to use integrated/a lower older tier card for a few months. That said, I still wouldn't go for Intel regardless, due to how much more expensive of a platform it is and how fast it becomes "EOL" before Intel switch to a new platform.

It has reached a point where I just recommend people to buy a pre-built system, even if it's more expensive than building it yourself, at least it's in stock. 
Like this thing

https://www.newegg.ca/skytech-st-shadow-0138-ne/p/N82E16883289078

[whm1974]

1 minute ago, TetraSky said:

Not like you could build a PC anyway...

It has reached a point where I just recommend people to buy a pre-built system, even if it's more expensive than building it yourself, at least it's in stock. 
Like this thing

https://www.newegg.ca/skytech-st-shadow-0138-ne/p/N82E16883289078

Well I'm not a fan of buying Prebuilts, so....

[TetraSky]

1 minute ago, whm1974 said:

Well I'm not a fan of buying Prebuilts, so....

It's pretty much the only way to guarantee getting a 30 series GPU these days, other than paying a scalper.

But I get you. I don't either. But when the alternative is waiting months or paying two to three times the MSRP on a GPU... The choice is easy to make (I'm personally waiting... waiting... forever waiting...).

[Bombastinator]

Saw the headline and I was like “yep..” intel F chips too.  Can’t guarantee a card will be available and the the things won’t run without one.

Edited March 5, 2021 by Bombastinator

[Bombastinator]

7 minutes ago, TetraSky said:

Yeah... The GPU shortage is insane and it makes no sense to build a PC today unless you already have a GPU or plan to use integrated/a lower older tier card for a few months. That said, I still wouldn't go for Intel regardless, due to how much more expensive of a platform it is and how fast it becomes "EOL" before Intel switch to a new platform.

It has reached a point where I just recommend people to buy a pre-built system, even if it's more expensive than building it yourself, at least it's in stock. 
Like this thing

https://www.newegg.ca/skytech-st-shadow-0138-ne/p/N82E16883289078

Lifetime may matter some, but these days price is random.  Retailers are marking up ryzen chips to the point they no longer have a price/performance advantage.  My new move is to wait and see what the Mac mini pro has to offer.  Decent chance they will have good video cards in them in which case win.

[ProjectBox153]

41 minutes ago, curiousmind34 said:

Edit 2: With Intel, you are going to have to sacrifice a good bit motherboard quality if you want to get same motherboard prices as AMD

That can be a major difference. Not in performance, but in features. 

[curiousmind34]

23 minutes ago, 8-Bit Ninja said:

Most people could probably get a crappy old card off a friend for dirt cheap as well, I have a oem gtx 660 and a radeon hd 7870 that i'd just give away if someone need a card to tide them over 

if that is the case for then, then the situation is different.

[curiousmind34]

1 minute ago, ProjectBox153 said:

That can be a major difference. Not in performance, but in features. 

Can you give an example of a $150 motherboard comparison and tell me the differences 

(genuinely asking, I don’t know)

[ProjectBox153]

1 minute ago, curiousmind34 said:

Can you give an example of a $150 motherboard comparison and tell me the differences 

(genuinely asking, I don’t know)

I don't have any exact comparisons, but if you're having to step down the board quality for the Intel system then you might lose an M.2 slot, might have to get a smaller board (limiting expansion), and a lower end board wouldn't be well suited to overclocking in the future. 

[whm1974]

2 minutes ago, ProjectBox153 said:

I don't have any exact comparisons, but if you're having to step down the board quality for the Intel system then you might lose an M.2 slot, might have to get a smaller board (limiting expansion), and a lower end board wouldn't be well suited to overclocking in the future. 

I for one could care less about overclocking.

[ProjectBox153]

Just now, whm1974 said:

I for one could care less about overclocking.

Sure, I haven't even messed with it on my system, but it's a feature you might lose out on entirely. If you did decide you wanted to overclock in the future you'd have to swap the board. 

[Bombastinator]

8 minutes ago, ProjectBox153 said:

I don't have any exact comparisons, but if you're having to step down the board quality for the Intel system then you might lose an M.2 slot, might have to get a smaller board (limiting expansion), and a lower end board wouldn't be well suited to overclocking in the future. 

I’ve heard there are some pretty bad x570 boards in the lower range.  It’s a features thing mostly.  What ports there are, what backup and debugging features are present, how sturdy the VRM is.

[whm1974]

2 minutes ago, ProjectBox153 said:

Sure, I haven't even messed with it on my system, but it's a feature you might lose out on entirely. If you did decide you wanted to overclock in the future you'd have to swap the board. 

My concern is that being Low Income, I'll shorten the lifespan of both the CPU and Motherboard. In other words, I could end up replacing the computer when I don't have the funds to do so.

[Bombastinator]

23 minutes ago, whm1974 said:

My concern is that being Low Income, I'll shorten the lifespan of both the CPU and Motherboard. In other words, I could end up replacing the computer when I don't have the funds to do so.

If a board works it generally works for the duration.  Motherboards don’t go poof very often.  The biggest danger is dinging up a port, and that one is independent of motherboard quality.

Edited March 5, 2021 by Bombastinator