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[leadeater]

18 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

I honestly doubt it. Apple saved almost nothing going from A13 on N7P to A14 on N5.

 

The M1 more and more screams to me that it's an A14X chip running macOS at 10W instead of 5W.

No they saved plenty from 7nm to 5nm for A13 vs A14

 

A13:

• Size: 98.5mm²
• Transistor count: 8.5B
• 7nm

A14:

• Size: 88mm²
• Transistor count: 11.8B
• 5nm

M1:

• Size: 119mm²
• Transistor count: 16B
• 5nm

A12X:

• Size: 122mm²
• Transistor count: 10B
• 7nm

 

A14 is both smaller and more transistors, it on 7nm would be a decent amount larger than the A13 was.

 

The M1 TDP/power wise could be used in an iPad, would be pretty sweet too, but performance wise it's very much class above that.

[Dracarris]

7 minutes ago, leadeater said:

A14 is both smaller and more transistors, it on 7nm would be a decent amount larger than the A13 was.

See my post above about how transistor count has its limitations to estimate circuit complexity and area, especially when comparing across different tech nodes.

[leadeater]

6 minutes ago, Dracarris said:

See my post above about how transistor count has its limitations to estimate circuit complexity and area, especially when comparing across different tech nodes.

Yes I know but they are similar architecture and for this purpose will not be significantly off or change how what was said would be the case. We are never going to see any of these on other nodes so this problem is immaterial to show that there are indeed density improvements between the two nodes. It's not like TSMC went through the effort of 5nm for no gain.

 

Edit:

Quote

Due to EUV enabling a smaller node, 5nm offers a massive 45% improvement in density

https://www.eteknix.com/tsmc-improvements-5nm-process/#:~:text=Due to EUV enabling a,improved performance compared to 7nm.

 

To say Apple gained nothing with 5nm is simply not the case.

[AlTech]

Quote

The M1 TDP/power wise could be used in an iPad, would be pretty sweet too, but performance wise it's very much class above that.

I'm not seeing it.

 

It's 4 High Performance cores and 4 Low Power cores and an 8 core GPU, this is more or less what iPad Pros have been using since 2017 with newer SOC designs from the mainline A series chips.

 

For example:

2017 iPad Pro was A10X based on A10 generation, 3 High Perf cores and 3 Low Power cores, pre-Apple design 12 core PowerVR GPU

 

2018 and 2020 iPad Pros using A12X and 12Z respectively based on A12 generation, 4 High Perf cores and 4 Low Power cores, 8 core Apple A12 Gen GPU

 

Clockspeeds on M1 are maybe 200-500MHz higher than an iPad Pro style chip would be at but the main difference would be 5W TDP in iPad Pro vs 10W in Mac.

 

Right now the current A[SOC Generation]X chip (in this case the A12Z which is a binned A12X based on A12 SOC generation) is based on a 2 year old SOC design. If it was based on the A14 SOC design it would likely achieve 80-90% of the performance of M1 chip.

[leadeater]

2 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

It's 4 High Performance cores and 4 Low Power cores and an 8 core GPU, this is more or less what iPad Pros have been using since 2017 with newer SOC designs from the mainline A series chips.

A12 was 2,4 cores and the performance cores are far less performant than what is in the M1. A12X was 4,4, same deal regarding A12 performance cores. A13 and A14 are both 2,4 unless I'm wrong on that. An X or Z of either A13/A14 would be a fair decent amount less performance than the M1, the difference isn't merely in clocks or TDP.

 

But like I mentioned Apple could put it in an iPad, just not sure they would over a smaller and cheaper A series.

[AlTech]

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

A12 was 2,4 cores and the performance cores are far less performant than what is in the M1. A12X was 4,4, same deal regarding A12 performance cores. A13 and A14 are both 2,4 unless I'm wrong on that. An X or Z of either A13/A14 would be a fair decent amount less performance than the M1, the difference isn't merely in clocks or TDP.

the mainline A non X chips are 2 High perf + 4 Low power, but the X chips are far more than the A chips. They're easily double the perf of the mainline A chips.

 

The fundamental CPU design of M1 is still based on A14 but with double the CPU and GPU cores.

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

But like I mentioned Apple could put it in an iPad, just not sure they would over a smaller and cheaper A series.

In what respect?

 

iPad Pros have always used A_X series chips and not the regular the A chips.

 

A series chips are for the budget iPads because it's in those areas that Apple cuts costs and use older chips where possible to not take away from chips that could be used on iPhones.

 

iPad Air 4 is an exception in that it uses the newest A series chip, the A14, but it's not intended to be an iPad Pro replacement. It justifies the new chip by the higher price tag compared to the traditional iPad Air cost of $499.

 

To not have an A_X chip in an iPad Pro would be fundamentally the end of iPad Pro itself. iPad Pro needs more perf than the regular A series can satisfy.

[AlTech]

@leadeater Fwiw, I am expecting the 2021 iPad Pro to be launched with A14X based on M1 chip with a much lower TDP and perhaps 1 GPU core disabled for binning purposes. I'd also expect 8GB RAM as an upgrade from the current 6GB in A12X iPad Pros.

 

Probably could come in February or March 2021. And I expect this if for no other reason than to stop the Late 2020 A14 iPad Air 4 from cannibalising the A12Z Early 2020 iPad Pro.

[leadeater]

8 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

In what respect?

 

iPad Pros have always used A_X series chips and not the regular the A chips.

Apple may not want to use an SoC packaged in the way the M1 is for the iPad, a tablet device also doesn't need as performant memory controller. There are likely other facets of the M1 architecture that aren't needed for a tablet device, mainly around device connectivity with other components in a laptop/SFF and external device connectivity.

 

A14 and M1 share the same high power and low power CPU cores (GPU cores as well? Not checked), but an A14X in a 4,4 configuration that does not contain the things in the M1 that are not needed would be a smaller less complex SoC and Apple certainly sells enough iPads to have both an A14X and M1 SoCs.

 

The M1 is based on the A14, so it won't be a case of the other way around.