bootcamp Want Windows 10 on your new M1 Mac? Ask Microsoft, Not Apple

[jasonvp]

4 hours ago, leadeater said:

People say and think they need a bunch of PCIe slots and expandability but really they don't and never use it

All generalizations are false, of course.

 

Good thing, too, because my Mac Pro is basically out of slots.  I might have one left, but the bandwidth for it is reduced.  It's not likely that Apple went all in with that Afterburner card, and the MPX card design, to throw it away on a single generation of device.  The full sized chassis will continue on, even with an SoC in it.  And the newer SoCs will support DIMMs and PCI-E slots.

 

Bet on it.

 

[CTR640]

On 11/21/2020 at 8:13 AM, SansVarnic said:

The best burn for Apple users is to install Windows on a Mac then walk around various coffee shops and use it.

Maybe even make a laptop sticker with the following? WinMac or Macdows... or something else funny to slap on there.

 

 

*edit

Disclaimer: I am not anti-apple but I seldom get to make apple jokes so here is my once-a-year attempt.

Or call it MS MacDOS or MS Macdows to avoid confusions.

[Dracarris]

8 hours ago, gabrielcarvfer said:

If the M1 transistor count is correct, then this thing is basically a 2080 TI (in terms of transistors). Kudos to TSMC.

Be aware that transistor count is sometimes a bad measure when comparing circuit complexity, especially between different tech nodes. The industry has resorted to using Gate-Equivalents (GE). 1 GE is equal to the area it takes to realize a 2-input NAND gate for a given tech node. In this way, you get a measure that acutally relates to circuit functionality (or complexity).

 

This approach is also now used for determining the nanometer-number by which a process is identified, since when going below 20nm or so the classic way, where 'x nm' meant "in this process the minimum gate length is x nm", no longer works. So if a NAND gate takes up a certain area in lets say 20nm, and in another process it uses 25% of that area (50% * 50% for both dimensions), said process is then called a 10nm process.

8 hours ago, gabrielcarvfer said:

The actual die may be a lot smaller than the heat spreader that is shown here.

 

[Dracarris]

12 hours ago, BlueChinchillaEatingDorito said:

To add on to that, build quality was second to none compared to the squeaky plastics of Windows laptops at the time that barely fit together properly. Horrible keyboard flex was common and the trackpads on MacBooks just felt much nicer and tracking was miles ahead. But for me the most important quality of life improvement was that it was the only way to get a nice looking high resolution display in a laptop. Even the late 2012 MacBook Pro Retina came with a 2560x1600 IPS display as standard. Such resolutions are still unheard of in Windows land. We're still dealing with awful TN 1366x768 displays, and 1080P is still considered a luxury, not a standard feature... in 2020. What a joke.

To be honest, not so much has changed until today. Premium Windows laptops are now slowly catching up (e.g., most recent XPS lineup). In some aspects Macbooks are however still unrivaled, trackpad, speakers, case flexing, general precision e.g. come to mind.

 

I am still shocked how many PC laptops with full HD panels are released as of this day and how this is still accepted. Usually you hear excuses like it degrades battery life without adding any benefit (on 15"+ screens - yeah, sure).

[BlueChinchillaEatingDorito]

12 minutes ago, Dracarris said:

I am still shocked how many PC laptops with full HD panels are released as of this day and how this is still accepted. Usually you hear excuses like it degrades battery life without adding any benefit (on 15"+ screens - yeah, sure).

I consider myself lucky that my ASUS Vivobook 15 that came with a 15.6" 1080P display and it too can get 6 maybe 7 hours of battery life. But the keyboard still feels subpar (though MacBooks of the time were plagued with the horrid butterfly switch so ehhh ). But it came with a 1TB SSHD and that for me was unacceptable. Thank God ASUS had a M.2 slot available on the board. 

[leadeater]

4 hours ago, jasonvp said:

All generalizations are false, of course.

 

Good thing, too, because my Mac Pro is basically out of slots.  I might have one left, but the bandwidth for it is reduced.  It's not likely that Apple went all in with that Afterburner card, and the MPX card design, to throw it away on a single generation of device.  The full sized chassis will continue on, even with an SoC in it.  And the newer SoCs will support DIMMs and PCI-E slots.

 

Bet on it.

 

What other PCIe cards do you have?

 

Also Apple has thrown away things after a single generation before. If they do make their own dGPU I don't see why they wouldn't bring the capabilities of the Afterburner card in to the dGPU. So it might go away but the technology and capability they designed not.

 

Also generalizations are not negated by exceptions either, that's why they are exceptions. In general really does mean in general. But what I pointed to is actually a real thing, not talking about Apple users but entire computer market. So many people buy full size motherboards, or go with HEDT, or worry about future expandability and never end up using it. It's not a bad thing, just common. Also not saying the Mac Pro wasn't wanted or needed either, I've wanted a new one to come out for a long time and I think it's pretty damn awesome, still doesn't change that the majority purchased will never get used at full expansion capacity in the same way most servers don't either.

 

P.S. I was one of the first here that said Apple will be making larger SoC for higher tier product lines, but the Mac Pro is still highly unknown for now, for the reasons I gave in one of these topics. I would however change my mind on that if someone had good sales data that shows there is a large enough customer base to warrant an SoC design just for the Mac Pro.

[jasonvp]

16 minutes ago, leadeater said:

What other PCIe cards do you have?

 

I have three NVMe PCI-E cards in the Mac.  Two have four drives a piece on them, and the third has a single drive.  I also had a 4-port USB card in, but found I wasn't using the ports so pulled it.

 

Quote

Also Apple has thrown away things after a single generation before. If they do make their own dGPU I don't see why they wouldn't bring the capabilities of the Afterburner card in to the dGPU. So it might go away but the technology and capability they designed not.

 

It's highly unlikely they worked on that FPGA technology in the Afterburner only to turn around and push the capabilities into a dGPU.  They're not going to load up the dGPU with FPGAs, either.  Further, the dGPU will likely be of AMD design, not Apple.

 

We'll get a hint at this when the more powerful Macbook Pros come out next year.  If the bigger 16" units come with a dGPU, I'm going to make the call it'll be AMD based, not Apple based.

 

[leadeater]

2 minutes ago, jasonvp said:

Further, the dGPU will likely be of AMD design, not Apple.

Hmm good point, maybe. They have pretty good GPU technology of their own but you may be right that for much larger designs utilizing AMD like Matrox does might be what they will do.

[saltycaramel]

29 minutes ago, jasonvp said:

I We'll get a hint at this when the more powerful Macbook Pros come out next year.  If the bigger 16" units come with a dGPU, I'm going to make the call it'll be AMD based, not Apple based.

 

According to China Times the upcoming iMac will have a dGPU by Apple, internal codename “Lifuka”

 

https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/10/27/early-2021-apple-silicon-imac-said-to-have-a14t-processor

 

I wonder if the 16” would have a “Lifuka”-in-different-thermal-envelope or just a bigger iGPU on the “M1X” die..

 

 

[saltycaramel]

Windows-x86 Crysis via Wine

 

 

[Video Beagle]

20 hours ago, like_ooh_ahh said:

it will have dual socket Apple Silicon Pro chips.

You were making a joke, but i've been wondering, could several of these SOC's be stuck together on a motherboard to make some kind of super machine?  (Like, by Apple, not me with superglue)?

[Video Beagle]

20 hours ago, leadeater said:

Hmm Mac Mini Pro, with stacking interface to create single large compute resource pool. Damn that would be awesome. Never going to happen but one can dream haha.

I asked somewhere this...are beowolf clusters still a thing?  I remember it was a big thing for schools to build their own "super computers" by buying a lot of mac minis and just linking them up, no?

[leadeater]

40 minutes ago, Video Beagle said:

You were making a joke, but i've been wondering, could several of these SOC's be stuck together on a motherboard to make some kind of super machine?  (Like, by Apple, not me with superglue)?

The answer to this sort of this is always "Anything is possible"

[Vishera]

Shifting the blame on Microsoft for removing bootcamp from macs is BS,Windows is not the only OS out there.

Linux works on every instruction set out there - whether it's X86-X64,ARM or PowerPC.

You could install Linux on the Power Mac G5,but Apple's closed garden came to the Mac as well...

 

In short: Apple are control freaks.

[Vishera]

2 hours ago, Video Beagle said:

You were making a joke, but i've been wondering, could several of these SOC's be stuck together on a motherboard to make some kind of super machine?  (Like, by Apple, not me with superglue)?

That's how Ryzen works.

[RedRound2]

1 hour ago, Vishera said:

Shifting the blame on Microsoft for removing bootcamp from macs is BS,Windows is not the only OS out there.

Linux works on every instruction set out there - whether it's X86-X64,ARM or PowerPC.

You could install Linux on the Power Mac G5,but Apple's closed garden came to the Mac as well...

 

In short: Apple are control freaks.

Sigh

 

Microsoft doesn't give out ARM version of Windows to third parties. That is why it isn't supported.

Once they do, there will be nothing that stops users from installing windows on M1 Macs. It's as simple as that. But nooo, I like to go with the notion that Apple is evil

[Vishera]

9 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

Microsoft doesn't give out ARM version of Windows to third parties. That is why it isn't supported.

I talked about Linux,Microsoft are not the only ones who has an operating system,Apple could still have bootcamp on M1 macs - You won't be able to run Windows on it but Linux and Android would work.

Apple just chose to cut it for their vision of a walled garden and shifted the blame for the absence of bootcamp on Microsoft.

[SpaceGhostC2C]

On 11/22/2020 at 4:46 AM, leadeater said:

But overall if something had good hardware or the capability to do so why should you care if someone does it or try to stop them.

On 11/22/2020 at 4:46 AM, leadeater said:

suffice to say I fought very hard, and won, that if you buy a Mac you shall run Mac OS.

 

On 11/22/2020 at 4:46 AM, leadeater said:

my life was so much better afterward, dual booting is more than twice the support requirement of the device.

 

 

(sorry for the shitpost)

 

[RedRound2]

14 minutes ago, Vishera said:

I talked about Linux,Microsoft are not the only ones who has an operating system,Apple could still have bootcamp on M1 macs - You won't be able to run Windows on it but Linux and Android would work.

Apple just chose to cut it for their vision of a walled garden and shifted the blame for the absence of bootcamp on Microsoft.

there's nothing stopping anyone from booting Linux. It's just that someone has to work on the drivers for M1 because Apple certainly won't. And someone (I don't remember who) from Apple said that they don't plan to stop from anyone booting another OS on the new M1 Macs

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/jtwgkp/work_is_being_done_to_allow_other_oss_to_work_on/

[leadeater]

15 minutes ago, SpaceGhostC2C said:

(sorry for the shitpost)

Well I'd argue in that referenced situation it wasn't capable, they'd never boot in to Windows enough and the computer account kept getting tombstoned breaking domain trust relationship, which was a damn pain in my ass lol.

 

Basically I only care about me  haha.

[Vishera]

Just now, RedRound2 said:

there's nothing stopping anyone from booting Linux. It's just that someone has to work on the drivers for M1 because Apple certainly won't. And someone (I don't remember who) from Apple said that they don't plan to stop from anyone booting another OS on the new M1 Macs

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/jtwgkp/work_is_being_done_to_allow_other_oss_to_work_on/

How will you boot Linux on it?,It seems like there are other restrictions,

This is what Linus Torvalds said about it:

Quote

I’ve been waiting for an ARM laptop that can run Linux for alongtime. The new Air would be almost perfect, except for the OS. And I don’t have the time to tinker with it, or the inclination to fight companies that don’t want to help.

 

[Sauron]

4 hours ago, Video Beagle said:

I asked somewhere this...are beowolf clusters still a thing?  I remember it was a big thing for schools to build their own "super computers" by buying a lot of mac minis and just linking them up, no?

The hot new thing is doing that with raspberry pis

[Blademaster91]

2 hours ago, Vishera said:

I talked about Linux,Microsoft are not the only ones who has an operating system,Apple could still have bootcamp on M1 macs - You won't be able to run Windows on it but Linux and Android would work.

Apple just chose to cut it for their vision of a walled garden and shifted the blame for the absence of bootcamp on Microsoft.

I doubt theres gonna be any dualbooting on ARM macs, apple wants everyone using macOS. Even if you could run Linux, would there be drivers for the proprietary GPU? You could take an old macbook that apple doesn't want to support with macOS 11, swap in a SSD and boot Linux on it, but no can't do that with the M1 macs because they'd rather force you to upgrade to a new one.

Edited November 23, 2020 by Blademaster91

[leadeater]

55 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

Microsoft doesn't give out ARM version of Windows to third parties. That is why it isn't supported.

Really? They do actually, I'm certainly not Microsoft and I can get Windows ARM edition just fine. What is the case is the avenues to get Windows ARM editions is limited, either from a device that comes with it or with a Microsoft license agreement and you purchase it, there is no retail purchasing of Windows ARM editions (the OS specifically). 

 

 

It isn't supported because there isn't an agreement between both companies to get it working, whether that be because one or the other doesn't want to or hasn't allowed it or both don't. I'd say both do not, neither is going to be all that interested in such a partnership. Unless Apple offers up M1 SoC to other OEMs then at that point Microsoft would be more likely interested, but for those devices rather than Apple/Mac hardware.

 

Supporting it just doesn't really fit with either company, anyone holding their breath for it to be supported might not live very long 

[Dracarris]

Why dual-boot at all, with all its disadvantages? Why not simply use hw-suppported virutalization with hw passthrough? It has been shown how performant it already is, I think even in this thread.

 

Dual boots are prone to update issues where one of the OSs (usually Windows) overwrites the customly placed bootloader. At this point I have two dual-boot installations:

- Win10 + Hackinthosh on a desktop

- Win10 + Ubuntu on a Dell XPS

 

With both there are regular issues with restoring the boot loader after someone in Redmond decides that the most recent, shoved-in-your-face Win10 update must touch and modify the boot loader for whatever reason. Sure, MacOS + Linux would be a much friendlier environment for sure, but again, why go through all the hazzle if native virtualization has come such a long way?