Lenovo Legion 7i: No vapor chamber for 1660ti, 2060 models despite marketing materials claiming otherwise

[codeHusky]

Summary

Lenovo has been selling the Legion 7i to customers under the impression that it includes a vapor chamber cooler. However, the vapor chamber cooler is limited to a small subset of models. They neglect to mention this on their site, and as a result it's being called false advertising by angry customers.

 

Image of heatpipe-cooled Legion 7i below in spoiler. 

Spoiler

 

Quotes

From Reddit...

Quote

UPDATE: Currently it appears that what determines your cooling system is THE GPU YOU GET, not necessarily the CPU. 2060 and below get short changed.

EDIT3: At /u/lijordon's suggestion I checked the parts list for the 7i. I found 4 different parts labelled "FANS":

Thermal C 81YT VC 2070/80MAXQ

Thermal C 81YT VC 2070

Thermal C 81YT HP 2060

Thermal C 81YT HP 1160TI

To me, this seems to confirm the GPU angle. 1660 and 2060 get "HP", or Heat Pipes, while 2070, 2070S, and 2080S get "VC', or Vapor Chamber.

From LQCG...

Quote

Lenovo has been caught doing this before, most notably for the Legion Y740. The Y740 only featured G-SYNC on the RTX models. However, Lenovo advertised it as having G-SYNC on all models, even the 1660ti model. They’ve since corrected this issue.

 

My thoughts

This is some terribly misleading marketing from Lenovo. This is especially frustrating given that they've done thing kind of thing before, notably to the 1660TI version of the Legion Y740. Basically, that was supposed to have G-SYNC according to the product page, but all of Lenovo's manuals said it didn't. The software didn't support it either. They ended up refunding people $100 or taking the laptops back if people were that upset. Hopefully Lenovo will step up to the plate and take responsibility here.

 

I'm hoping LTT will cover this given that they just had the Legion 7i on Short Circuit.

 

Sources

Laptop Quality Certification Group Article: https://lqcg.org/2020/07/21/legion-7i-no-vapor-chamber-for-cheaper-models/ (Written by a Notebookcheck contributor aka me)

Reddit:

 

[5x5]

Does anyone even care about the 7i?

[Enderman]

Why do people care so much?

Heatpipes are vapor chambers...

[codeHusky]

1 minute ago, Enderman said:

Why do people care so much?

Heatpipes are vapor chambers...

Due to the way vapor chambers are designed, they're generally much more efficient at transporting heat than conventional heatpipes. And, in this case, the vapor chamber cooler is what a lot of people bought the Legion 7i for. However, folks are instead receiving a weaker, conventional cooler.

[NeuesTestament]

I guess it is time for Lenovo to simplify the product stack. Seriously though, this kind of stuff should really stop, but considering they bring out thousands of models they also have simple oversight as plausible denialbility.

[genexis_x]

The main issue here is false advertising. The heatpipe solution isn't that bad (10w less thermal capacity according to Lenovo). Power limits are also tuned down as a result.

 

TL;DR: Only i5+1660Ti and 10750H+2060 models are using HP, the rest are using VC. 10875H+2060 is using VC.

 

It happened again unfortunately. GSYNC issue also happens in 7i where only 10875H/10980HK models get it

[genexis_x]

14 minutes ago, LokiRautio said:

weaker

It depends on heatsink lottery also, some 7i with VC achieved below average thermals according to the thermal data I gathered

[Enderman]

25 minutes ago, LokiRautio said:

Due to the way vapor chambers are designed, they're generally much more efficient at transporting heat than conventional heatpipes. And, in this case, the vapor chamber cooler is what a lot of people bought the Legion 7i for. However, folks are instead receiving a weaker, conventional cooler.

Vapor chambers are designed exactly the same as a heatpipe.

The only difference is that sometimes they are made into more odd shapes that look less like a pipe.

[codeHusky]

27 minutes ago, Enderman said:

Vapor chambers are designed exactly the same as a heatpipe.

The only difference is that sometimes they are made into more odd shapes that look less like a pipe.

You realize that's literally what I was talking about, right?

  

49 minutes ago, NeuesTestament said:

I guess it is time for Lenovo to simplify the product stack. Seriously though, this kind of stuff should really stop, but considering they bring out thousands of models they also have simple oversight as plausible denialbility.

Yeah, plausible deniability, but it's certainly pretty reckless if your marketing team can't even keep the specs straight. We saw a similar issue back with the ThinkPad T14 where they said the AMD variant had TB3 but no Ethernet for some reason. Completely false, and they luckily caught it before the product launched, but still.

44 minutes ago, genexis_x said:

It depends on heatsink lottery also, some 7i with VC achieved below average thermals according to the thermal data I gathered

Fair enough, sure. Although 10 watts is quite a fair bit, and people were paying for a product with a vapor chamber after all. Some sort of compensation is in order.

[Enderman]

10 hours ago, LokiRautio said:

You realize that's literally what I was talking about, right?

 

"Due to the way vapor chambers are designed, they're generally much more efficient at transporting heat than conventional heatpipes"

 

They really aren't.

Why do you think CPU coolers use heatpipes instead of vapor chambers?

Using one wide vapor chamber is really the same as using 4 flat heatpipes, there is no benefit.

[genexis_x]

34 minutes ago, LokiRautio said:

Fair enough, sure. Although 10 watts is quite a fair bit, and people were paying for a product with a vapor chamber after all. Some sort of compensation is in order.

Off topic: Are you codeHusky in Youtube?

[D13H4RD]

A lot of laptop makers have been guilty of misleading marketing, unfortunately.

 

My GL502 was advertised as having a 120Hz display. Imagine my dismay when I found out it was 60Hz....

[codeHusky]

31 minutes ago, genexis_x said:

Off topic: Are you codeHusky in Youtube?

I am, yes. Should probably change this account to make that a little more clear.

 

27 minutes ago, D13H4RD said:

A lot of laptop makers have been guilty of misleading marketing, unfortunately.

 

My GL502 was advertised as having a 120Hz display. Imagine my dismay when I found out it was 60Hz....

That sucks. Apparently the same thing happened to early purchasers of the AMD Nitro 5.

35 minutes ago, Enderman said:

"Due to the way vapor chambers are designed, they're generally much more efficient at transporting heat than conventional heatpipes"

 

They really aren't.

Why do you think CPU coolers use heatpipes instead of vapor chambers?

Using one wide vapor chamber is relaly the same as using 4 flat heatpipes, ther eis no benefit.

I'd suggest doing some more research into the benefits of vapor chambers. There's a bit more to it than that.

[Enderman]

10 minutes ago, codeHusky said:

I'd suggest doing some more research into the benefits of vapor chambers. There's a bit more to it than that.

No, there really isn't.

You're buying into all the marketing.

 

The way they function is exactly the same as a heatpipe.

Copper shell, interior wick, fluid, and low internal pressure.

That's all it is, literally the same construction as a heatpipe.

[codeHusky]

8 minutes ago, Enderman said:

No, there really isn't.

You're buying into all the marketing.

 

The way they function is exactly the same as a heatpipe.

Copper shell, interior wick, fluid, and low internal pressure.

That's all it is, literally the same construction as a heatpipe.

Realistically, there's increased surface area between the heat spreader and the vapors inside of the chamber when the chamber itself is the heat spreader. The reduced metal between the liquids and the actual die certainly helps, and the paths vapor can take to get to the radiators are almost infinite compared to bidirectional like heatpipes.

 

Edit: Additionally, the large surface area of the copper vapor chamber can be used to help spread the heat, allowing more liquids to vaporize and cool down the die. Overall, there's just more potential for cooling to occur with a large mass filled with coolant compared to a tube.

 

This isn't just marketing - there's a league of benefits outside of just the materials and basic principals applied here.

[Enderman]

1 hour ago, codeHusky said:

Realistically, there's increased surface area between the heat spreader and the vapors inside of the chamber when the chamber itself is the heat spreader. The reduced metal between the liquids and the actual die certainly helps, and the paths vapor can take to get to the radiators are almost infinite compared to bidirectional like heatpipes.

 

Edit: Additionally, the large surface area of the copper vapor chamber can be used to help spread the heat, allowing more liquids to vaporize and cool down the die. Overall, there's just more potential for cooling to occur with a large mass filled with coolant compared to a tube.

 

This isn't just marketing - there's a league of benefits outside of just the materials and basic principals applied here.

Yeah you sound like you went to a wikipedia page and looked up the benefits of a vapor chamber, good job.

It's funny because you contradict yourself, first you say there is reduced metal, then you say there is more mass, which is it??

And why would you want infinite paths for the vapor when you only want it to go from hot to cold and back again? That is only two directions.

 

Also clearly none of that applies "realistically" because all the vapor chamber CPU coolers that exist don't perform any better than heatpipe coolers.

Even the top CPU cooler manufacturers like noctua don't bother with the vapor chambers.

Look at the XPS17, the magical "high performance vapor chamber cooler" barely does any better than heatpipes on the xps15, and the majority of that difference is because it is a physically larger vapor chamber that makes the laptop much thicker and heavier.

 

As I said before, it's just marketing.

Vapor chambers are just heatpipes in a different shape.

Instead of using multiple flat heatpipes side by side you just use a wide rectangle heatpipe, wow, such inoovation.

[codeHusky]

7 minutes ago, Enderman said:

Yeah you sound like you went to a wikipedia page and looked up the benefits of a vapor chamber, good job.

It's funny because you contradict yourself, first you say there is reduced metal, then you say there is more mass, which is it??

And why would you want infinite paths for the vapor when you only want it to go from hot to cold and back again? That is only two directions.

 

Also clearly none of that applies "realistically" because all the vapor chamber CPU coolers that exist don't perform any better than heatpipe coolers.

Even the top CPU cooler manufacturers like noctua don't bother with the vapor chambers.

Look at the XPS17, the magical "high performance vapor chamber cooler" barely does any better than heatpipes on the xps15, and the majority of that difference is because of the larger vapor chamber that makes the laptop thicker and heavier.

 

As I said before, it's just marketing.

Vapor chambers are just heatpipes in a different shape.

Instead of using multiple flat heatpipes side by side you just use a wide rectangle heatpipe, wow, such inoovation.

There's no point in disputing your claims if your only argument against mine is "well the internet is wrong and I'm right." I didn't look at Wikipedia either, this is just something I've gathered from experience.

 

Also, if you're saying the XPS 17's cooler is basically the same as the XPS 15's cooler, I'd like you try to run full XPS 17 wattages through the XPS 15's heatpipes and let me know how that goes.

(Edit: also yes, Heatpipes and Vapor Chambers are effectively the same thing but in different forms. However, they wouldn't make different forms if there wasn't a benefit to them, and we've seen this benefit in many places. Say what you like, but heatpipes aren't somehow the better solution by default because we're familiar with them.)

Edited July 21, 2020 by codeHusky

[Enderman]

1 minute ago, codeHusky said:

There's no point in disputing your claims if your only argument against mine is "well the internet is wrong and I'm right." I didn't look at Wikipedia either, this is just something I've gathered from experience.

Go look at benchmarks of vapor chamber CPU coolers, lol, it's not hard to see why 99% of manufacturers don't use them.

 

1 minute ago, codeHusky said:

Also, if you're saying the XPS 17's cooler is basically the same as the XPS 15's cooler, I'd like you try to run full XPS 17 wattages through the XPS 15's heatpipes and let me know how that goes.

Considering the fact that you can get them with identical specs, I don't think the larger screen is going to magically make the temps hotter.

[codeHusky]

Just now, Enderman said:

Considering the fact that you can get them with identical specs, I don't think the larger screen is going to magically make the temps hotter.

Have you ever heard of power limits?

[schwellmo92]

2 hours ago, Enderman said:

Go look at benchmarks of vapor chamber CPU coolers, lol, it's not hard to see why 99% of manufacturers don't use them.

 

Considering the fact that you can get them with identical specs, I don't think the larger screen is going to magically make the temps hotter.

https://celsiainc.com/heat-sink-blog/heat-pipes-vapor-chambers-difference/

[RejZoR]

6 hours ago, 5x5 said:

Does anyone even care about the 7i?

Does anyone even cares about Lenovo? Had one laptop from them and had so many problems I've never had with ALL laptops I've owned combined. Almost everything that could fail on it has failed or was crappy. WLAN reception and endless disconnecting, display dying while it was in service for the WLAN and later HDD dying on me as well.

 

Since then I'm sticking with HP and ASUS and the experience has been much much better.

[StDragon]

I don't understand what all the hubbub about vapor chambers are. It's just another tool to move heat. That's it. You use heat-pipes to provide a source to destination movement of heat. Vapor chambers essentially do the same, but it's more about removing hot-spots via horizontal heat sinking throughout the chamber pad. Depending on how the motherboard is laid out, a single vapor chamber could be cheaper vs having a bunch of different heat-pipe units. 

 

In the end, it's all about how the technology is applied to achieve the goals of thermal management. I've seen expensive HSF concepts provide crappy thermals and cheap Chinese no-name knock-offs provide exceptional results for the price.

[spartaman64]

2 hours ago, Enderman said:

 

 

12 minutes ago, StDragon said:

 

idk about heatpipes or vapor chambers but i remember the old saphire vapor x cards and they were much cooler and quieter than other aftermarket gpus 

 

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[5x5]

35 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Does anyone even cares about Lenovo? Had one laptop from them and had so many problems I've never had with ALL laptops I've owned combined. Almost everything that could fail on it has failed or was crappy. WLAN reception and endless disconnecting, display dying while it was in service for the WLAN and later HDD dying on me as well.

 

Since then I'm sticking with HP and ASUS and the experience has been much much better.

Brand loyalty is a flawed mentality. Lenovo make good and bad products, just like any other OEM.

[RejZoR]

15 minutes ago, 5x5 said:

Brand loyalty is a flawed mentality. Lenovo make good and bad products, just like any other OEM.

When you consistently have good experience with one brand and sometimes maybe get a problem, that's not brand loyalty. That's sticking with statistics. When laptop literally disintegrates while in service for another problem, that's just shit vendor I'm gonna avoid in a huge arch and not gonna try my chances with it most likely ever again.