The discussion I feel we need to have

[spartaman64]

knowledge is power. i see a lot of kids saying i dont use blank in my job so its useless to me but i disagree with that mind set. there are lots of ways people can take advantage of someone's ignorance and you dont want to be one of those people they can prey on. 

https://nrich.maths.org/1441

https://ignoranceanduncertainty.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/what-are-the-functions-of-innumeracy/

[Fredrik Svantesson]

1 hour ago, Cora_Lie said:

Tell that to all the PhDs who can't find any job and are finally "flipping burgers" at the end of the day... And there are a LOT like that...

Obviously you have to make good choices too.

[Tog Driver]

On 8/26/2019 at 8:14 PM, flibberdipper said:

If you want to be an unintelligent and useless bag of meat for your entire life, then sure.

You do know intelligence and knowledge/education are different things right?

 

School gives knowledge/education, the things people learn in school can be useful, but just because you don't go to school does not mean you will be a "useless bag of meat".

 

9 hours ago, cluelessgenius said:

bad choice in words there buddy.

Pumped up kicks starts playing in the background.

[flibberdipper]

5 minutes ago, Tog Driver said:

You do know intelligence and knowledge/education are different things right?

 

School gives knowledge/education, the things people learn in school can be useful, but just because you don't go to school does not mean you will be a "useless bag of meat".

Unfortunately this isn't the 1800s, the world we live in damn near requires a halfway decent education if you want to have a good quality of life and would like to avoid being Amish.

[TheSLSAMG]

5 minutes ago, flibberdipper said:

Unfortunately this isn't the 1800s, the world we live in damn near requires a halfway decent education if you want to have a good quality of life and would like to avoid being Amish.

 

I'm sorry, it's a force of habit anytime someone mentions the amish.

[Anden]

18 hours ago, DarkDragon2K04 said:

Who else thinks that school is just a problem that needs to be killed and why? I feel like discussing this with someone right now. I don't care if you agree with me or not let's just talk about this. And be open minded.

I agree that school isn't fun but it's necessesary. Like you wouldn't go to school for no reason at all would you?

[bimmerman]

Middle/High School seems like a waste while you're in it.

 

Now, it seems like much ado about nothing.

 

K-12 schooling prepares you with foundational knowledge to be a functional citizen in society, regardless of what post-school trajectory you take. For example, those trivial math memorization exercises you whine about are really excellent preparation for you to split the dinner / bar tab without relying on a technological crutch.

 

It's not supposed to be fun, but it also doesn't last forever.

[MrFixitBlankFace]

21 hours ago, DarkDragon2K04 said:

Honestly, this is the kind of approach I felt will happen and why I want to talk about it. You guys seem to just rush out I feel we should discuss this like civilized people.

Seems intelligent to me. 

Spoiler

/s

By the way, I’m in school and it’s fine. I think if we want to be someone in life we gotta hit the books.  Besides, it could be fun sometimes.  Now, math...that is a problem that we should discuss.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, comander said:

School serves several purposes:
1. Daycare
2. Education

I'm not going to address this part as I don't want to start a very long and endless discussion ^o^

I'd just say that I'm not sure it's all that simple...

 

1 hour ago, comander said:

1. People should NOT be going to mediocre PhD programs.

How do you define a "mediocre" PhD?

Usually I prefer with this kind of subject I prefer to talk of things I personnally know and/or experienced, so:

Would you say that a PhD in Mathematics, with a thesis in Knot Theory from an internationally renownd french universtiy is "mediocre"?

Or that a PhD (with honors) in Plant Genetics from a well-known university in Tel-Aviv is "mediocre"?

Or that a PhD in Computer Science with a thesis on Network Analysis is "mediocre"?

 

This 3 examples are real live experiences for friends of mine some years ago. All three of them at one moment in their life more or less quickly after finishing their thesis ended "flipping burgers" as they couldn't find a job in their area. All three of them were quite successful and good in their studies, excellent grades...

The reality of the after "student" status is not that simply, even more so when you are studiying in some very specialized areas and that there are not that many chairs available, whether in research or companies.

 I remember having read a few years ago that for every 20 PhDs finishing their thesis there was... 1 job available in their area of research... What do you think happens for the 19 others?

The friend with a PhD in Mathematics who did an outdstanding thesis on Knot Theory, went to the army, in wanted to spend the year teaching, he's been sent to be a commando (like your SEALS), and after that he became a professor in Senior High-School.

The one with a PhD in Plant Biogenetics did participate in a few research project, but never managed to get a definitive stable job, even now is traveling from city to city getting short-time contracts in projects, as he says "jokingly" that he is a "deluxe temporary employee". The longest project he worked for was 2 years.

The one with a PhD in Computer Science? She never managed to find a job for her level of Education, she was a woman, she got married, found a job and as we live in a small country, she was contacted several times to pass interviews, but in fact they wanted to hire her husband! Yes... Hes husband! Because they had the same PhD, both of them, she had better grades, she was more proactive, great personality, but she was a woman... And she's been told by HR that women have this little problem that is "potential pregnancy"...

And I can go on like that as I have lots of similar examples. And the problem, is the same being in Europe, in the US or in Shanghai.

 

So... The problem is not always the mediocrity of the university, or the curriculum of choice. It's also structural.

1 hour ago, comander said:

2. People should NOT be doing a PhD unless they have a plan to get something out of it. Everyone who makes a major life decision should be writing an essay saying:
I'm doing this for X reasons, I hope to gain Y skills, Z opportunities are available to me and I'll take advantage of them by doing W and leveraging _______ resources.

That's all well and nice if the market wasn't changing so quickly all the time.

A PhD is 7 to 8 years from starting university to the end of the thesis and depending on many factors (number of positions available). Meaning that in let's say 5-6 years you can have a very quick mutation of the job environment and jobs that used to be in demand, after that are way less.

You study what you like but can't find a job. So you have to make another career choice.

 

We also had lots of documentaries and reports about young students who started their studies in a certain area (Master in Economics, Engineering, Law school) and finally stopped and became carpenters, Chefs, builders, etc. Because they were realising their parents' dream of studying but weren't happy.

And in that very specific scenario, I don't think that all these years spent studying are a waste of time and money because they learned a lot of useful things, things that taught them to think and to learn, sometimes things that were useful in their future career.

And some studies also showed that these students who changed their career at a late age where learning quicker, more efficiently and more successfully than the younger ones. Because they had more motivation and more maturity.

 

Some other cases? Society!

If you don't have university diplomas you're nothing. Literally... And now companies are demanding more in terms of diplomas for smaller jobs. Or people who apply with lots of diplomas are not considered for a job because they are overqualified.

And here I'm talking about myself. I had to "lie" on my CVs at a certain point of my career to get a job. Not lie in term of saying I had qualifications I didn't have but in terms of not writing down all my qualifications.

Because I have 3 unforgivable "stains":

• Overqualified
• Woman
• Not Pure bred French

THe number of times I've been outright told in the face "I don't someone in my team who knows more than I do"... That's also the reality work-life!

But it's the past as far as I'm concerned now.

1 hour ago, comander said:

It's fine if things change along the way but at least knowing what you're getting into goes A LONG WAY.

Not everyone has that luxury ^o^

1 hour ago, comander said:

While I'll admit I didn't do this for my undergrad or grad school experiences I DID do this when I was applying to MBA programs (got the job I wanted without the Harvard/Stanford/Wharton MBA, skipped the process). It's a very useful way of thinking and planning. 

It depends at what age it is asked for. I live in a country (not France) where this is asked from kids aged 11...

At 11 it is decided for them (by the school and the teacher) in which branch they are going to be sent: Classical, General (aka Technical) or Technological (the really not successful at school).

Don't tell me that at 11 years you "know" what you want to be in 7 years.

My daughter wanted to enter a very specific school in the country... At 11yo she had to write a letter explaining what she wanted her "path of life" to be... Some kids know more or less eventually what they want to do, some have absolutely no idea.

At her age I had absolutely no idea. Because I never even heard of the kind of job I'm doing know.

 

So... Well, I thinks things are not so simple after all...

[TetraSky]

As someone who dropped out of high school because I had terrible scores, no friends, parents that didn't encourage me to stay, bullying issues and what not...(I'm also autistic but didn't know that at the time... schools really weren't adapted for us when I was a kid... heck autism as we know it didn't even fucking exist.)

Let me tell you, I regretted it every single day once it finally hit me that(a few years later... I lived in denial for a while)... You really can't do shit other than either being self employed and hoping to be successful or working shitty minimum wage jobs for the rest of your life... (Or have good connections to get hired somewhere worthwhile... I didn't)

Going back to school 10 years later was the single best decision of my life. Not only was I more mature, more understanding of my "condition" and all...

But turn out I'm actually more than capable(averaging 90% in all subjects), when I'm able to study at my pace however I wanted and not be constricted to the lowest common denominator of the class. It took a while, 2 years to be exact, but now I have a diploma on my wall and couldn't be prouder. (2 years to complete what was essentially 5 years of schooling)

I'm actually going to college in a few months too to do a 3 year technique in IT... Either that or something like industrial electronics.

 

So what I want to say.... Stay in school, you'll live to regret it otherwise, even if it's not immediately. 

[Tog Driver]

7 hours ago, flibberdipper said:

Unfortunately this isn't the 1800s

I knew something felt off. . .

 

7 hours ago, flibberdipper said:

the world we live in damn near requires a halfway decent education if you want to have a good quality of life

I guess this depends on your definition of "good quality", the point I'm trying to make is knowledge is important, but school is not the only place to get it, go work for a carpenter for a while and you can learn a lot, (adding, subtracting, division) with no schools in sight.

 

7 hours ago, flibberdipper said:

would like to avoid being Amish.

 

Spoiler

 

[Tog Driver]

3 hours ago, Cora_Lie said:

 

• Not Pure bred French

. . . I read that as "Not pure French Bread". . .

[LAwLz]

16 hours ago, RuffRuffmcgruff said:

Thanos system, wipe out 50% of the worlds population and everyone revert back to the stone age lol

People defintely didn't live as long as we do now but they probably had a happier life. Not counting being hunted by big cats etc lol

Homo Sapiens didn't evolve to live this life

I can't tell if you're serious or not. If you don't enjoy this type of life then you could always move out to some jungle and live it like that if you want. I doubt they had happier lives though, constantly having to worry about starving to death, constantly getting ill and as much as a common cold could be fatal, etc.

 

16 hours ago, Cora_Lie said:

There are other kinds of schools which lean to teach kids, their value, make them discov er their own creativity and develop confidence in themselves to stand on their own. And not all schools like the one I described are private schools.

What does that even mean? Find me a school that doesn't teach kids to read, write, basic math operations, etc, and instead just teach them "to discover their own creativity". To me that sounds like a daycare rather than a school.

 

16 hours ago, Cora_Lie said:

It's true that most educational systems are not like that, Most of the time Education is just an extent of the "training" system from the government. And please don't just jump on what I'm saying, but it's true.

I won't jump on what you're saying because I can barely understand what you are saying.

What do you mean "education is a training system for the government"?

Judging by the way you write, English is not your first language. What country are you from? I am asking because that might put things into perspective for me.

 

16 hours ago, Cora_Lie said:

School is a place where kids are going to learn academics, but most of all, "schools" are the place they are going to learn social behaviour. You learn, you are taught to "fit in"!

I'd say it's 50/50 between social behavior and academics. At least in the lower levels of education. Like primary school. At places like universities then I would say that statement is far from the truth.

But what's wrong with learning how to "fit in"? That is a very important skill if you even want to work with other people. Unless you learn basic human interaction and etiquete, you will be that annoying person nobody likes, and that's terrible for work that requires interacting with other people (which is most decent jobs).

 

16 hours ago, Cora_Lie said:

But that is mainly the problem of schools where you have hundreds and thousands of students. And it's just as desctructive for the teachers as for the students. But it's "good" for the kind of society we are in now.

Can you please elaborate? Again, I genuinely do not understand what you are talking about.

What grades are we talking about?

Which countries are we talking about?

How is it "good" for "the kind of society we are in now"?

 

 

16 hours ago, Cora_Lie said:

There are other kinds of schools, different kinds of schools, different ways of teaching. They exist, they work and they are more than fine and successful. My daughter goes in a school like that, BUT... Is it "convenient" to have them generalized? That's another story.

Again, I don't understand what you mean.

What kind of school does your daughter go to? The structure of your sentence mean that your daughter goes to one of the "other kinds of schools", but then you talk about how your daughter is being "generalized". I am not sure what you mean by your daughter being "generalized" but I assume you mean she is "programmed" by the school to "fit in"? If that's the case, why is that bad? The tone of your post almost makes it sound like you want your child to be anti-social.

[LAwLz]

14 hours ago, Cora_Lie said:

Tell that to all the PhDs who can't find any job and are finally "flipping burgers" at the end of the day... And there are a LOT like that...

1) That is not true if you look at studies and statistics. The unemployment rate of people with PhDs is far lower than the national average (at least in the US). Here is an article from AAAS about it.

 

2) You can't generalize everyone who gets a PhD as being in the same category. Someone with a PhD in gender studies or liberal arts is not exactly the same type of person as someone with a PhD in computer science, engineering or some other STEM field.

 

 

14 hours ago, spartaman64 said:

knowledge is power. i see a lot of kids saying i dont use blank in my job so its useless to me but i disagree with that mind set. there are lots of ways people can take advantage of someone's ignorance and you dont want to be one of those people they can prey on. 

https://nrich.maths.org/1441

https://ignoranceanduncertainty.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/what-are-the-functions-of-innumeracy/

And the people who say things like "I don't use X which I learned in primary school so therefore the education system is flawed" lack a fundamental understanding of how the system works.

In the lower grades you get a decent understanding of a wide variety of concepts. This is because everyone should have at least a vague understanding of how things work and relate to each other. It also gives all the students a taste of what the different subjects are about. You think it's hard to pick what you want to work with now? Imagine how hard it would be if you had never been exposed to the subjects you thought were "useless". You only know that they are useless because you were exposed to them and could think "that's not something that interests me".

 

Then as you progress and get older, your education becomes more and more narrow and specialized.

 

Everyone get the same solid base of knowledge and gets to try a wide variety of things so that they can learn what interests them.

Then you get to pick the subjects that interested you and study those more, but still get to learn about slightly more advanced aspects of a wide variety of subjects.

Then when you get to college or university you spend all your time specializing in some particular subject.

 

At least that's how it is for jobs I'd consider good. The type of jobs I have, and want my children to have. Not flipping burgers at McDonald's.

[Guest]

16 hours ago, RuffRuffmcgruff said:

Thanos system, wipe out 50% of the worlds population and everyone revert back to the stone age lol

People defintely didn't live as long as we do now but they probably had a happier life. Not counting being hunted by big cats etc lol

 

How long ago are you talking?

 

~1500 

- Could be eaten alive by Aztecs, Tortured by the Spanish Inquisition, Shot by the British, Killed by the Mongols.

 

~1000

- Killed by the Vikings, Bombarded by Byzantines,  F*cked by the Franks, Genocided by Genoans

 

~500

- I've seen what Romans used to wipe their butts. They were not happier. 

 

~0

- Don't ask. Probably died of a common cold when you're 25. 

 

~ 500 BC

- If you're not rich now, you're a slave. Game over, you lose. 

 

~  1000 BC

- If you're not a king or in the military, you're a slave. Game over, you lose. 

 

~ 150,000 MYA

- You live in a cave and die of absolutely everything. You'd be eligible for superannuation at 30

 

People back then simply didn't have time to be happy. Not that they would be. 

16 hours ago, RuffRuffmcgruff said:

Homo Sapiens didn't evolve to live this life

Yes we did. 

1) Our bodies are designed to eat cooked food

2) Our bodies are designed for clothes

3) Our bodies are designed for modern communication

 

However

1) Our bodies are not designed for modern jobs, such as office work. 

2) Our bodies are not designed for modern hygiene. We even have a lack of parasites.

3) Our bodies are not designed to look at a computer screen.

 

Communication however, is the cornerstone of human cultural evolution, and passing down knowledge, such as in schools, is essential to live. 

 

[Joluch]

On 8/26/2019 at 6:13 PM, DarkDragon2K04 said:

Who else thinks that school is just a problem that needs to be killed and why?

It seems that almost everyone feels that there are issues with the current schooling system and everyone has their ideas for improvement. What you described might not be the idea most people have in mind for a change though.

On 8/26/2019 at 6:17 PM, DarkDragon2K04 said:

You guys seem to just rush out I feel we should discuss this like civilized people.

So, @DarkDragon2K04, what would your ideas be then? I can't agree or disagree with your ideas until I know more. Would there be no kindergarden, elementary, high school, colleges? Or did you just mean at a certain point people should just enter the job market? Can you give me your reasoning?

[RuffRuffmcgruff]

1 hour ago, floofer said:

How long ago are you talking?

 

~1500 

- Could be eaten alive by Aztecs, Tortured by the Spanish Inquisition, Shot by the British, Killed by the Mongols.

 

~1000

- Killed by the Vikings, Bombarded by Byzantines,  F*cked by the Franks, Genocided by Genoans

 

~500

- I've seen what Romans used to wipe their butts. They were not happier. 

 

~0

- Don't ask. Probably died of a common cold when you're 25. 

 

~ 500 BC

- If you're not rich now, you're a slave. Game over, you lose. 

 

~  1000 BC

- If you're not a king or in the military, you're a slave. Game over, you lose. 

 

~ 150,000 MYA

- You live in a cave and die of absolutely everything. You'd be eligible for superannuation at 30

 

People back then simply didn't have time to be happy. Not that they would be. 

Yes we did. 

1) Our bodies are designed to eat cooked food

2) Our bodies are designed for clothes

3) Our bodies are designed for modern communication

 

However

1) Our bodies are not designed for modern jobs, such as office work. 

2) Our bodies are not designed for modern hygiene. We even have a lack of parasites.

3) Our bodies are not designed to look at a computer screen.

 

Communication however, is the cornerstone of human cultural evolution, and passing down knowledge, such as in schools, is essential to live. 

 

K

[WkdPaul]

* Thread locked *

 

 

As per the CS, trolling isn't allowed : creating a thread about a "discussion" we need to have 2 days ago, then not coming back to have said discussion.

 

While the discussion didn't turn sour, I feel it's better to lock this before it does.

 

Also, as per the consensus, there's no discussion to have ; school isn't perfect and sometimes (or even often) sucks, but it's necessary. As a note, "school" could be swapped for "work" or anything else really, that's life