roasted MSI Mocks Apple w/ New Prestige 5K Monitor (stand included!)

[saltycaramel]

1 hour ago, Noctus said:

As someone said on reddit. It's not a 200$ vesa mount. It's a 200$ apple tax for not buying into their ecosystem.

It’s a rugged magnetic hefty metal VESA mount meant to be undocked thousands of times (because that’s one the use cases they’re proposing: leave many stands and vesa mounts deployed around and constantly undock the display to carry it to places).

 

Nobody isn’t even considering the added cost (to the VESA mount, to the solid metal 4.8KG stand with that swiss clockwork thingy that makes a 7.5KG 32” display weightless, to the display itself) required to achieve the kind of ruggedness that use case implies..

 

Sure doesn’t sound something to include as a freebie..

 

I think for this kind of specialized gear nobody should pay by default for stuff they don’t need (I’m now imagining a closet full of a stack of unused VESA mounts or stands...it would be ridiculous..). Perfectly fine to let businesses just order what they need. Maybe 10 vesa mounts or 5 stands for each monitor, for the dock/undock scenario apple proposed on stage. 

[Drak3]

@saltycaramelYou are overestimating how much engineering or cost goes into these products.

[Noctus]

5 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

It’s a rugged magnetic hefty metal VESA mount meant to be undocked thousands of times (because that’s one the use cases they’re proposing: leave many stands and vesa mounts deployed around and constantly undock the display to carry it to places).

 

Nobody isn’t even considering the added cost (to the VESA mount, to the solid metal 4.8KG stand with that swiss clockwork thingy that makes a 7.5KG 32” display weightless, to the display itself) required to achieve the kind of ruggedness that use case implies..

 

Sure doesn’t sound something to include as a freebie..

 

I think for this kind of specialized gear nobody should pay by default for stuff they don’t need (I’m now imaging a closet full of a stack of unused VESA mounts or stands...it would be ridiculous..). Perfectly fine to let businesses just order what they need. Maybe 10 vesa mounts or 5 stands for each monitor, for the dock/undock scenario apple proposed on stage. 

Oh puuaaahhhllllleaaaase. They purposely made an obstinate "propriety magnetic vesa mount" and slapped it to a daft stand so they could milk cash instead of using what everyone else is using on "normal" $30k+ reference monitors.

 

The monitor is fine, i applaud what they've done for waaay less. The stand/vesa tax is a joke.

[saltycaramel]

12 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

@saltycaramelYou are overestimating how much engineering or cost goes into these products.

I’m tempted to say at the moment my estimation is as good as anybody else’s..

 

If a were a billionaire, I would pick random internet guys and challenge them with “ok make me one, or ten thousands for scaling, for less if you can”..

 

I like that many times the answer is “ok it may actually be costly but they shouldn’t have done that in the first place” (see above). Spoken by random internet guy vs Apple Inc. + pro industries consultants. Yeah. I mean. 

[leadeater]

8 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

I’m tempted to say at the moment my estimation is as good as anybody else’s..

 

If a were a billionaire, I would pick random internet guys and challenge them with “ok make me one, or ten thousands for scaling, for less if you can”..

 

I like that many times the answer is “ok it may actually be costly but they shouldn’t have done that in the first place” (see above). Spoken by random internet guy vs Apple Inc. + pro industries consultants. Yeah. I mean. 

But this uses the very same gas spring weightless monitor technology, designed to hold monitors of the same weight and size but yet has far better positioning capabilities and costs 1/5th the price.

https://www.vogels.com/en/c/pfd-8543-monitor-mount-dynamic

 

And yes it is the same weightless/zero-g technology, Apple's is not any different. A magnetic aligning clamp does not cost $800 to design nor make. 

 

Edit:

Never mind the fact that you need to pay the very same $200 to Apple to even be able to use the above mount.

[Drak3]

Just now, saltycaramel said:

Apple Inc. + pro industries consultants.

You keep saying this like it means something.

 

1 minute ago, saltycaramel said:

I like that many times the answer is “ok it may actually be costly but they shouldn’t have done that in the first place”

Here's the thing: other companies offer products of this complexity and design for less money. For fuck's sake, Microsoft brought a new variation with the Studio, which also includes more complex machining, and yet they remain price competitive to other offerings given that they're also packing a high quality pen display as well.

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, saltycaramel said:

It’s a rugged magnetic hefty metal VESA mount meant to be undocked thousands of times (because that’s one the use cases they’re proposing: leave many stands and vesa mounts deployed around and constantly undock the display to carry it to places).

That's never going to happen. Nobody is going to be regularly carrying around $6k monitors and to where are they going to be carrying them to or from? The movement risk is too high, it's going to be mounted and stay where it is for it's life unless the entire working space is relocated, everything. This is not a rugged monitor like the ones actually made to be portable like this.

 

Nobody is going to buy 1 $6k monitor and 3-5 stands for it, or VESA mounts, because that doesn't actually increase productivity or utilization of the monitor. You can't share a monitor, only one person one task at a time so any expenditure on more mounts will not increase productivity only cost. I'd like to meet a business that would think that is a good idea so I know who not to work for.

 

This monitor is designed to meet a requirement for a lower cost so you can buy more of them, increasing productivity. You could buy a $15k, $30k or $45k monitor but if this Apple one is suitable for the purpose you could buy 2, 4 or 6 of them with money left over which sadly you'll have to spend on either a $200 VESA bracket for a $200 VESA mount or a $999 stand, for each monitor.

 

Apple, designing a product feature for a use case that does not exist or is not fit for the use case and products already exist to meet it.

[saltycaramel]

Back to the stand, let’s go back to basics and be analytic about it.

Let’s look at this picture and give a reasonable *market* *final user* (and pro market at that) price to each of the 3 parts of the stand

 

 

 

 

1) magnetic disc suitable to willy nilly latch/unlatch a 5k$/6k$ high end display to it; also supports portrait 

2) the clockwork zeroG thingy that looks built like a tank 

3) the no-rivets no-screws single piece of thiccc aluminum carved out of a solid block of metal (we sure any other alternative you mentioned is comparable in terms of cost?)

 

I may be out of my mind but I can’t go below 100$+150$+400$. 

 

The “internets” seem to imply this should come free or like 200$ at most. 

[Ashiella]

On 6/7/2019 at 7:54 PM, DrMacintosh said:

It’s a nice marketing opportunity, but the Apple Pro Display XDR is an entirely different class of monitor. 

Yeah, the very-wealthy, got money for 24-karat gold wrapping paper class.

/s

[leadeater]

15 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

magnetic disc suitable to willy nilly latch/unlatch a 5k$/6k$ high end display to it; also supports portrait 

That'll be used a few times to amaze everyone then the monitor left where it is until it's time to replace it. Once the wow cool factor wears off and it's time to do work, i.e. be a professional, this function will not be used. You're saving 5 minutes time on mounting screws, am I supposed to say good job?

 

15 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

the clockwork zeroG thingy that looks built like a tank 

This is found in ALL weightless monitor mounts like the one I linked.

 

15 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

the no-rivets no-screws single piece of thiccc aluminum carved out of a solid block of metal (we sure any other alternative you mentioned is comparable in terms of cost?)

This is because and also means the stand is incapable of having as much adjustments as other options on the market. It doesn't have rivets or screws or joints because it lacks the capabilities that would necessitate this to be part of the design of the stand. Form over function, you've lost function for it to look nicer not that it actually looks that nice.

 

15 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

The “internets” seem to imply this should come free or like 200$ at most. 

Because there are monitor mounts with the very same 'amazing' zero g thingy from that picture you posted. You will find that same mechanism in all weightless monitor mounts. I'll give you $250-$300 for being aluminium and not steel.

[Ashiella]

13 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

Back to the stand, let’s go back to basics and be analytic about it.

Let’s look at this picture and give a reasonable *market* *final user* (and pro market at that) price to each of the 3 parts of the stand

 

 

 

 

 

1) magnetic disc suitable to willy nilly latch/unlatch a 5k$/6k$ high end display to it; also supports portrait 

2) the clockwork zeroG thingy that looks built like a tank 

3) the no-rivets no-screws single piece of thiccc aluminum carved out of a solid block of metal (we sure any other alternative you mentioned is comparable in terms of cost?)

 

I may be out of my mind but I can’t go below 100$+150$+400$. 

 

The “internets” seem to imply this should come free or like 200$ at most. 

The problem lies with that the monitor is pretty unarguably overpriced, whether apple as the manu is overpricing it, or they're buying pricey materials, they could've included the stand with the monitor. It's simply a cash grab, because they know that anyone looking at buying the new Mac Pro and the monitor to go with it, were going to buy it regardless of the price. (May I say, that its not over-priced if customers still pay for it; it's just simply ridiculous margins)

[saltycaramel]

23 minutes ago, Ashiella said:

The problem lies with that the monitor is pretty unarguably overpriced, whether apple as the manu is overpricing it, or they're buying pricey materials, they could've included the stand with the monitor. It's simply a cash grab, because they know that anyone looking at buying the new Mac Pro and the monitor to go with it, were going to buy it regardless of the price. (May I say, that its not over-priced if customers still pay for it; it's just simply ridiculous margins)

 

Overpriced compared to what comparable product with 6K, 9 reference modes, supreme sunglasses-required HDR (1600nits peak, 1000nits sustained, the whole back is a massive aluminum heatsink to cool it off plus a fan), 576 dimming zones on a 32”, etc. (and I’m not super sure the new MacPro “automatically” “goes with” the new XDR display...that’s a stretch...a painful 6K$ stretch..)

 

Same for the stand, I can see leadeater’s point but I’m not still fully convinced there’s an easy “see?” comparable product...the mechanism doesn’t exactly look the same as other product...the T shaped aluminum foot as mentioned requires machining out of a solid block of aluminum...people can’t summon the “same functionality achieved” argument and call it a day...or certainly not use that particular argument to call something a rip-off...let others with different needs and priorities achieve functionality the way they want...

 

There’s an “everything is the same” culture that in the end, when all the mocking and journalistic sensationalism is over, only ends up screwing the other end of the market, where people tend to believe they can get away with buying crappy stuff..

 

 

[saltycaramel]

Or to put it another way: if you can’t (or you don’t want to be part of that particular race) beat existing products on price, just make up entirely new categories and price tiers where you’re the only player in town.

 

In a sense, it’s apple itself actively preventing us to be in the position of doing apples to apples comparisons.

 

Doesn’t mean those new categories are a rip-off per se.

[mr moose]

58 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

Back to the stand, let’s go back to basics and be analytic about it.

Let’s look at this picture and give a reasonable *market* *final user* (and pro market at that) price to each of the 3 parts of the stand

 

 

 

 

 

Fine, about $50 for that,  but one question,  where does the soap come out and where do you push?

[saltycaramel]

And if you’re in the race to the bottom, feed off the marketing crumbs falling off the table of apple’s news cycle, I guess, as seen in the OP.

[saltycaramel]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

Fine, about $50 for that,  but one question,  where does the soap come out and where do you push?

The slot has to be for disposable towels..

[ravenshrike]

22 hours ago, mr moose said:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/buy/monitor-table-top-stand-mounts/ci/27607/cp/3644+17761+27604+27607

 

It's not like specialty stands don't exist at stupidly high prices.

That's a minimalist stand for an 85 inch plasma monitor that weighs 260 pounds probably machined out of a single chunk of metal and there were maybe a couple thousand produced at absolute most. For a sense of scale the image in this article provides.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, ravenshrike said:

That's a minimalist stand for an 85 inch plasma monitor that weighs 260 pounds probably machined out of a single chunk of metal and there were maybe a couple thousand produced at absolute most. For a sense of scale the image in this article provides.

I get that, my point was you can find expensive products everywhere,  In fact for $3200 (or A$4500) I could get a stand like that custom made, but that is besides my point, that being,  it's hardly a topic worth debating because there really are only two camps you'll be in 1. it's ridiculously overpriced.   Or 2. its just an expensive product that I'll probably buy one later because I'm rich and Lazy. 

 

 

6 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

The slot has to be for disposable towels..

 

Well that makes sense, but for the price I expect it to at least come with a dyson blower.

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, saltycaramel said:

Overpriced compared to what comparable product with 6K, 9 reference modes, supreme sunglasses-required HDR (1600nits peak, 1000nits sustained, the whole back is a massive aluminum heatsink to cool it off plus a fan), 576 dimming zones on a 32”, etc. (and I’m not super sure the new MacPro “automatically” “goes with” the new XDR display...that’s a stretch...a painful 6K$ stretch..)

I'm afraid the monitor mount is not 6k, does not have 9 reference modes, 1000/1600 nits, no dimming zones and is not 32". The monitor has those not the stand.

[leadeater]

2 hours ago, saltycaramel said:

Same for the stand, I can see leadeater’s point but I’m not still fully convinced there’s an easy “see?” comparable product...the mechanism doesn’t exactly look the same as other product...the T shaped aluminum foot as mentioned requires machining out of a solid block of aluminum...people can’t summon the “same functionality achieved” argument and call it a day...or certainly not use that particular argument to call something a rip-off...let others with different needs and priorities achieve functionality the way they want...

Or it's die cast aluminium with a good finish quality. I don't actually know if it's die cast or machined but either way the aluminium cost is not that high and you can recover the aluminium for reuse. We also have engineering department that teaches all these fields through mechatronics, automotive, agritech, civil engineering etc and I have actually done an engineering paper and one of the projects used aluminium and that material cost was not high at all. We are not talking about aerospace grade aluminium being used here.

 

As for the T shape, that's an extremely basic shape so design effort isn't even worth factoring. The tight housing of the gas spring tension mounting and gearing is the only high effort design part, I personally have no experience doing that work but I have enough nous to look at other products with the exact same thing and their cost to know it's not $999 worthy. How can more complex harder to manufacture products that require more design effort cost less if it is to be believed the Apple stand actually merits the $999 price. 

 

2 hours ago, saltycaramel said:

There’s an “everything is the same” culture that in the end, when all the mocking and journalistic sensationalism is over, only ends up screwing the other end of the market, where people tend to believe they can get away with buying crappy stuff..

See here is the thing, where I work we are Apple customers, a large one. We also do medical imaging and use medical grade monitors and make diagnoses with life consequences along with huge liabilities on those. This Apple monitor is never going to be used here, that's not a problem either it's not for that and nobody actually expected that least of all Apple.

 

We have media and creative design departments that teach using labs of Apple computers, 30 Mac Pros per lab. There is well over 1000 Mac devices non inclusive of phones, purely computers (desktops/laptops) and over 10000 Windows computers.

 

I am part of one of the target markets, we are existing customers but do you know what we will not be buying? I have already confirmed with the people making those purchasing decisions, the new Mac Pro and the Pro Display XDR. There is no way we're spending millions of dollars on such screens for teaching purposes, I expect we will buy some though but not for every computer, and any purchases of the new Mac Pro has been ruled out because Apple sells other products that fit the requirements for the same and less.

 

The Apple stand is a $999 art piece.

[Drak3]

6 hours ago, Ashiella said:

The problem lies with that the monitor is pretty unarguably overpriced

Not really, it competes with reference monitors.

 

3 hours ago, leadeater said:

Or it's die cast aluminium with a good finish quality. I don't actually know if it's die cast or machined but either way the aluminium cost is not that high and you can recover the aluminium for reuse

Apple has an animation covering the holes and it implies that it's machined. Not only that, but what they actually show is a rather simple process. Just drill a hemisphere from each side.

[Commodus]

11 hours ago, Noctus said:

As someone said on reddit. It's not a 200$ vesa mount. It's a 200$ apple tax for not buying into their ecosystem.

Er, what?  If you need it, you've already dropped at least $5,000 on their ecosystem.  You need it whether that monitor hooks up to a Mac or a Windows PC.  And no one buying a Mac Pro is obligated to buy that monitor.

[Ashiella]

10 hours ago, saltycaramel said:

 

Overpriced compared to what comparable product with 6K, 9 reference modes, supreme sunglasses-required HDR (1600nits peak, 1000nits sustained, the whole back is a massive aluminum heatsink to cool it off plus a fan), 576 dimming zones on a 32”, etc. (and I’m not super sure the new MacPro “automatically” “goes with” the new XDR display...that’s a stretch...a painful 6K$ stretch..)

 

Same for the stand, I can see leadeater’s point but I’m not still fully convinced there’s an easy “see?” comparable product...the mechanism doesn’t exactly look the same as other product...the T shaped aluminum foot as mentioned requires machining out of a solid block of aluminum...people can’t summon the “same functionality achieved” argument and call it a day...or certainly not use that particular argument to call something a rip-off...let others with different needs and priorities achieve functionality the way they want...

 

There’s an “everything is the same” culture that in the end, when all the mocking and journalistic sensationalism is over, only ends up screwing the other end of the market, where people tend to believe they can get away with buying crappy stuff..

 

 

I was talking about the stand. The display probably costs in the neighborhood of $1000 to make, gotta get that 6x margin. The stand is the issue. But @Commodus makes a valid argument, "Er, what?  If you need it, you've already dropped at least $5,000 on their ecosystem."

[D13H4RD]

Said it before. 

 

The monitor itself is priced fine, about what you'd expect. But the stand? Come on. I'm pretty sure this stand is nowhere near good enough to justify sticking "$999" unless it's entirely motor driven. Even then, it's a toughie. 

 

I bet that if the monitor is shown with a price of $5999 with the stand alongside an option of having no stand with a $1000 rebate, the PR hit would at least be not as much of a mockery. 

[Bouzoo]

6 hours ago, Drak3 said:

Apple has an animation covering the holes and it implies that it's machined. Not only that, but what they actually show is a rather simple process. Just drill a hemisphere from each side.

You know, if it were anything like a Pagani Huarya rim which is made from a single Aluminium piece and needs 24h to be cut I'd say fine, but if it's so simple...