Germany Okay With Huawei Infrastucture

[Tech Enthusiast]

To be quite frank here:

When was the last time the US offered proof for anything they claim? At least Germany tries not not fuck over companies for shady reasons, without any evidence whatsoever.

Honestly the US just dislikes Huawai, because they are not native and surpassed Apple now. It is a strictly economic thing for the US and as per usual they hide that behind defamation without anything to back it up.

[Bouzoo]

13 hours ago, suits said:

With Germany being on the wrong side of history so many times you really think they wouldn't be the ones to do this

To do what exactly? Not ban Huawei? Use US equipment, or from countries allied with US? The same US who started all of this Huawei fiasco even after they (NSA) infiltrated/hacked Huawei and found nothing? Best that everyone drops Cisco and Juniper equipment since NSA hacked those as well. I mean, they would never spy on other people, especially the German Chancellor Angela Merkel, right? Or her ministers? Luckily US was never wrong with Iran, Afghanistan, Vietnam or Iraq. That leaves us with Ericsson right? Yeah I wouldn't count on that one for the most part. Nokia then? So who exactly is the one to decide what is right?

 

Huawei is a rotten company, but for other reasons than this, like for literally copying Cisco designs and pushing ultimatums. I am still waiting for concrete evidence more than this or that found in Huawei equipment. We're talking actual proof. For decades NSA spy modules have been found in Cisco and Juniper but no one cares about that, and no one provided actual proof for Huawei. Proof? Sure.

Quote

Plummer and Huawei have long complained that when the U.S. House Intelligence Committee released a report in October 2012 condemning the use of Huawei gear in telephone and data networks, it failed to provide any evidence that the Chinese government had compromised the company's hardware. Adam Segal, a senior fellow for China Studies at the Center for Foreign Relations, makes the same point. And now we have evidence – Der Spiegel cites leaked NSA documents – that the U.S. government has compromised gear on a massive scale.

Now for sure, this was 6 years ago, but it just shows us what kind of game they are playing here. 

 

12 hours ago, suits said:

If you don't know you should probably go world history 101 at your local school, WW1, WW2.

That doesn't make others the good guys. You should go and check history yourself. 

[GoldenLag]

13 hours ago, suits said:

With Germany being on the wrong side of history so many times you really think they wouldn't be the ones to do this

What country hasnt been on the wrong side of history. And they havent been on the wrong side since 1945 (ish).

 

13 hours ago, suits said:

If you don't know you should probably go world history 101 at your local school, WW1, WW2.

You need to look at a whole lot more than ww1 and ww2 too see the whole picture and context. There has been a whole lot of cucked stuff during "peacetime". Just ask South America. 

[straight_stewie]

9 hours ago, Dogeystyle said:

No such qualms with Huawei, their manufacturing and R&D are all pretty much in China (save for satellite sites near tech hotspots), whether or not they're aiding in spying it's open season against them. The more extreme the rhetoric the better. 

There is a basis for the accusations, albeit the publicly known basis is more "motive, capability, and opportunity".

The founder/exCEO/current board member of Huawei Ren Zhengfei worked as a civilian engineer in the People Liberation Army's "Information technology research unit" (also referred to as "the department of military information"). This unit does everything from normal scientific research to engaging in and funding NSA like activities. Later in his career, and after overcoming much opposition, he was allowed to join the Communist Party of China. (which itself is fishy: He was initially barred from doing so due to having activist parents. This begs the question: What did he do to prove his loyalty to the party?) It has since been proven that Huawei has regularly received non public funding both from the civilian Chinese government and the PLA (which isn't necessarily bad, but taken with other activities they are engaged in, doesn't look good).

Their CFO was arrested in Canada for the US due to her allegedly laundering money through Huawei on behalf of SkyCom relating to activities in which she attempted to hide the illegal sale of telecom products to Iran, an activity that was reported by Reuters in 2013. Even her defense lawyer admitted that the bank she was using was HSBC, a bank highly suspected to willfully engage in highly illegal banking, money laundering, and espionage funding activities (again, not necessarily bad, but doesn't look good).

Additionally, a Chinese research institute which regularly receives funding from Huawei (again, not necessarily bad, they do fund alot of research, but it still doesn't look good), was just implicated in conducting electronic surveillance and espionage against the USN.

At some point, these "not necessarily bad, but doesn't look good" things become a pattern, and start to indicate that Huawei or it's leadership is involved in nefarious activities of some type. And that being the case, I think the safest bet is to assume that it's a worst case scenario and move to curb their capability to compromise our infrastructure. Unfortunately the US tends to do things like that via over regulation, but that's another discussion in and of itself.

[asus killer]

the times of president Trump, present zero proof of any Huawey wrong doing, in the middle of a useless trade war, divide nations, create chaos, create fear, create generalized hate.

The ones not falling for this are the ones getting bashed.

[Selah]

17 hours ago, 1kv said:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2018/12/15/mps-call-parliament-investigate-dangers-huawei-poses-uks-national/ (I don't know how to format it sorry)

Anyway the UK has security fears too so we're not all agreeing that Huawei is safe to use.

I don't completely trust Germany on this one as they're a lone wolf on thinking "Huawei's fine". It's 5 countries against 1. I'd rather take the opinion of multiple countries instead of 1 country unless the 1 country has enough evidence to suggest Huawei is innocent. Sure, the 5 eyes might not have enough evidence but if 5 countries agree then I'm going to trust them. I'm not saying you should trust them, I'm just saying I do.

 

There are quite a few interesting studies involving people following trends and the dangers you can be exposed to by involving yourself in hive-like thinking

 

[Tech Enthusiast]

Why is WW1 and WW2 dragged into this now?

Both did not have anything in common with the topic in question. Not at all.

Also: a "few" years between now and then, so maybe, just maybe.... Hitler (who was not even german to begin with) is not in charge anymore?

 

If we would be going by that strange logic all US reputation would be void and gone for the next hundred years due to Mr. Orange Guy.

[DaRk0]

19 hours ago, RorzNZ said:

Germany's technology watchdog says it cannot find any evidence Huawei is a security risk.

So does other Five Eyes countries. US is just using their sphere of influence to get rid of competition.

[S w a t s o n]

29 minutes ago, DaRk0 said:

So does other Five Eyes countries. US is just using their sphere of influence to get rid of competition.

AFAIK the main competition for Huawei is Siemens Ericsson, a swedish company.

Canada is also looking into a Huawei ban. The truth of the matter is just like the US telcos helped the US government a ton as proven by snowden and other leaks, chinese telecoms help the Chinese government. Except the Chinese government is a dictatorship under the guise of a single communist party.

[dalekphalm]

17 hours ago, suits said:

If you don't know you should probably go world history 101 at your local school, WW1, WW2.

WW1 and WW2? A combined total of about 10 years? Out of approximately 2100 years worth of recorded history?

 

Seriously dude, if you still consider Germany "bad" because of their actions during WW1 and WW2? I have no words. Since 1945, Germany has been a pretty exemplary example of a nation reformed. Since 1945 in particular, Germany has a far better history then, say, the US does.

 

What about France? Are we going to pick on them for the War of 1812? What about England? Are we going to pick on them for the conquest of Scotland? Are we going to pick on the US for rebelling against their legal monarch? Are we going to pick on the UK for unjustly taxing a colony?

 

This German bashing is frankly, pretty messed up. You can certainly critique their history - the world will never forget the Nazi Regime - but they are not the Nazi Regime, and haven't been for 73 years now.

 

In this context, someone basically just took a cheap shot at Germany (since Nazi Germany somehow has anything to do with their refusal to ban Huawei) and then you and others just piled on... for what? For fun?

17 hours ago, Daegun said:

Alright, name your preferred country and we'll pick apart all of its choices and tell you why you can't trust them currently because of the actions of people that aren't even alive anymore. 

Indeed - most countries throughout history have done questionably ethical things. America with the slave trade, invasion of foreign countries over questionable reasons, near total destruction of local first nations populations, etc. Even Canada is guilty of crimes against first nations populations.

 

The UK? Hundreds of years of a foreign policy of colonizing foreign countries by force and then exploiting them for decades/centuries.

 

Etc.

6 hours ago, FloRolf said:

Also, the Germany bashing in the thread is unreal, has anyone ever been here and knows more than Trumps "Refugees are destroying Germany!"? 

It's slightly disturbing to see people jumping on the German Hate train. Certainly they aren't a perfect country, but sure as hell neither is any other country.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, DaRk0 said:

So does other Five Eyes countries. US is just using their sphere of influence to get rid of competition.

Japan and Germany are not in Five Eyes

[CarlBar]

6 hours ago, straight_stewie said:

There is a basis for the accusations, albeit the publicly known basis is more "motive, capability, and opportunity".

The founder/exCEO/current board member of Huawei Ren Zhengfei worked as a civilian engineer in the People Liberation Army's "Information technology research unit" (also referred to as "the department of military information"). This unit does everything from normal scientific research to engaging in and funding NSA like activities. Later in his career, and after overcoming much opposition, he was allowed to join the Communist Party of China. (which itself is fishy: He was initially barred from doing so due to having activist parents. This begs the question: What did he do to prove his loyalty to the party?) It has since been proven that Huawei has regularly received non public funding both from the civilian Chinese government and the PLA (which isn't necessarily bad, but taken with other activities they are engaged in, doesn't look good).

Their CFO was arrested in Canada for the US due to her allegedly laundering money through Huawei on behalf of SkyCom relating to activities in which she attempted to hide the illegal sale of telecom products to Iran, an activity that was reported by Reuters in 2013. Even her defense lawyer admitted that the bank she was using was HSBC, a bank highly suspected to willfully engage in highly illegal banking, money laundering, and espionage funding activities (again, not necessarily bad, but doesn't look good).

Additionally, a Chinese research institute which regularly receives funding from Huawei (again, not necessarily bad, they do fund alot of research, but it still doesn't look good), was just implicated in conducting electronic surveillance and espionage against the USN.

At some point, these "not necessarily bad, but doesn't look good" things become a pattern, and start to indicate that Huawei or it's leadership is involved in nefarious activities of some type. And that being the case, I think the safest bet is to assume that it's a worst case scenario and move to curb their capability to compromise our infrastructure. Unfortunately the US tends to do things like that via over regulation, but that's another discussion in and of itself.

 

All of that sounds great until you remember that Huawei is a chinese company. Just as the US insists that many things sensitive to it's national security in terms of military and governmental stuff is handled solely by US citizens, (and the US is far from unique in this ethier). It's nothing unusual or unexpected that the chinese government would be contracting with them, (or requiring other companies working on their behalf to contract with them), for projects relating to it's national security. From the PoV of any citizen of any country in the world you can find endless examples of exactly the same kind of behaviour from just about every company with products with national security implications and their home nation.

 

As for the Iran thing, guess what, tons have companies have been caught with their hands in that particular cookie jar. It's highly profitable. It doesn't look good of course, but not  just Huawei has been caught doing it.

 

More importantly thats all hearsay. Not evidence. 

[straight_stewie]

1 minute ago, CarlBar said:

More importantly thats all hearsay. Not evidence. 

If it's your position that because I do not have first hand knowledge of whatever our intelligence communities are reporting, I'm not allowed to base an opinion off it, then hardly anyone could ever have an opinion on any foreign issue.

The best we can do is look for news articles and investigative reports and base our opinions on those, which is what I have done. That reply you quoted took me over an hour to write, and I should have, but did not, link the articles and sources which gave me that information.

If what you meant to say was "that's only circumstantial evidence", then yes, it is. But if every time you look at an entity it appears that they are doing something wrong, then they probably are. Think about it this way: If every time a person disappeared in your area, you saw your neighbor burying a black garbage bag in his yard, wearing a shirt stained red, you would (or atleast, should) suspect him, even if you've never seen any of the missing people at his house.

 

4 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

From the PoV of any citizen of any country in the world you can find endless examples of exactly the same kind of behaviour from just about every company with products with national security implications and their home nation. 

That is exactly correct. It's also the reason why it's a bad idea to base critical infrastructure nearly entirely on components made by such contractors with other nations. It wouldn't be any smarter for us to build our telecom networks on the back of a Chinese intelligence contractor than it would be for China to build theirs on General Dynamics products.
 

[Trixanity]

9 minutes ago, straight_stewie said:

If it's your position that because I do not have first hand knowledge of whatever our intelligence communities are reporting, I'm not allowed to base an opinion off it, then hardly anyone could ever have an opinion on any foreign issue.

The best we can do is look for news articles and investigative reports and base our opinions on those, which is what I have done. That reply you quoted took me over an hour to write, and I should have, but did not, link the articles and sources which gave me that information.

If what you meant to say was "that's only circumstantial evidence", then yes, it is. But if every time you look at an entity it appears that they are doing something wrong, then they probably are. Think about it this way: If every time a person disappeared in your area, you saw your neighbor burying a black garbage bag in his yard, wearing a shirt stained red, you would (or atleast, should) suspect him, even if you've never seen any of the missing people at his house.

 

That is exactly correct. It's also the reason why it's a bad idea to base critical infrastructure nearly entirely on components made by such contractors with other nations. It wouldn't be any smarter for us to build our telecom networks on the back of a Chinese intelligence contractor than it would be for China to build theirs on General Dynamics products.
 

Problem is you can't have 192 cutting edge companies that can develop and spearhead connectivity. There isn't room for more than a handful due to fierce competition, patents, R&D requirements and the list goes on. So many countries are forced to buy from that handful of companies that exist.

 

There isn't any good solution. Although I am of the opinion that critical infrastructure should be made domestically.

[GoldenLag]

I think we should ban equipment from Nokia. I feel those finns are up to no good. Speaking in codes and all

[Drak3]

55 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

I think we should ban equipment from Nokia. I feel those finns are up to no good. Speaking in codes and all

The Finns are too straight forward to not be trustworthy. Instead of spying on everyone, they tell others to go fuck themselves then shoot at them with 20mm rifles.

[GoldenLag]

1 hour ago, Drak3 said:

The Finns are too straight forward to not be trustworthy. Instead of spying on everyone, they tell others to go fuck themselves then shoot at them with 20mm rifles.

Im suspecting them of planting 20mm rotary cannons to assasinate my president. No such risk can be taken

[Canada EH]

11 hours ago, Tech Enthusiast said:

US just dislikes Huawai, because they are not native and surpassed Apple now. It is a strictly economic thing for the US and as per usual they hide that behind defamation without anything to back it up.

Ya no one can trust anything the u.s. government says anymore. Ever since they lied about weapons of mass destruction just so they can secure and obtain oil and gas, Cheney sure cashed in didnt he. But its all about Trump now.

[CarlBar]

4 hours ago, straight_stewie said:

If it's your position that because I do not have first hand knowledge of whatever our intelligence communities are reporting, I'm not allowed to base an opinion off it, then hardly anyone could ever have an opinion on any foreign issue.

The best we can do is look for news articles and investigative reports and base our opinions on those, which is what I have done. That reply you quoted took me over an hour to write, and I should have, but did not, link the articles and sources which gave me that information.

If what you meant to say was "that's only circumstantial evidence", then yes, it is. But if every time you look at an entity it appears that they are doing something wrong, then they probably are. Think about it this way: If every time a person disappeared in your area, you saw your neighbor burying a black garbage bag in his yard, wearing a shirt stained red, you would (or atleast, should) suspect him, even if you've never seen any of the missing people at his house.

 

My position is that until we have proof all we've got is various groups with vested interests badmouthing the company. It's not about weather you have first hand evidence. But weather anyone does. Until someone does more than make claims and starts showing demonstrable evidence they could be making it up for their own reasons, (and everyone saying anything negative has reasons to want to say that regardless of its accuracy), rather than because there's any factual basis in the claims.

 

Right now we have say so. But we have zero hard facts.

[straight_stewie]

2 hours ago, CarlBar said:

Right now we have say so. But we have zero hard facts.

I don't know what country you live in, but in the United states "Means, Motive, and Opportunity" is all that's needed to lead to a further investigation, an indictment, pressed charges, or an arrest.

 

2 hours ago, CarlBar said:

various groups with vested interests badmouthing the company.

The initial claims came from our intelligence community. What vested interest are you claiming that our intelligence community has in whether or not Huawei products are used in our telecom network?

[leadeater]

18 minutes ago, straight_stewie said:

I don't know what country you live in, but in the United states "Means, Motive, and Opportunity" is all that's needed to lead to a further investigation, an indictment, pressed charges, or an arrest.

True but you don't jump straight to conviction though do you? "I suspect therefore you are banned" is not the same thing as "I suspect therefore I will investigate".

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, straight_stewie said:

I don't know what country you live in, but in the United states "Means, Motive, and Opportunity" is all that's needed to lead to a further investigation, an indictment, pressed charges, or an arrest.

That gets a lot of people into some trouble doesn't it? Lot of bad cops and racism is America still, nothing to be proud of. Irregardless 

22 minutes ago, straight_stewie said:

The initial claims came from our intelligence community. What vested interest are you claiming that our intelligence community has in whether or not Huawei products are used in our telecom network?

Chinese government has large influence in Chinese companies, such as Huawei, very close ties. The American intelligence agency want their toys to spy on their people, not China's.

[straight_stewie]

22 minutes ago, RorzNZ said:

That gets a lot of people into some trouble doesn't it? Lot of bad cops and racism is America

Yes. It gets a lot of criminals into trouble. How are you equating the ability to show that someone was at a crime scene, had a reason to commit the crime, and had the tools necessary to commit the crime to racism? And just to bring to light how silly it is to bash other countries for things: https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2018/11/06/308935/our-racist-education-system

 

Let me say this simply: Everyone in an advanced country thinks their country is somehow better than all the others. Yet, all advanced countries have the same problems and engage in the same activities. Every advanced nation has problems with racism, sexism, mass surveillance, and quality of life inequities.
 

38 minutes ago, RorzNZ said:

Chinese government has large influence in Chinese companies, such as Huawei, very close ties. The American intelligence agency want their toys to spy on their people, not China's. 

So, given that no matter what we do or want, we will be under surveillance, I would rather be under surveillance by my own government. At least that way we're not increasing the risk of losing state secrets at the same time. Ideally there would be no mass surveillance of any kind, but those days are long gone, so it's time to make lemonade from lemons.

Additionally, as I've spent much time showing in previous replies, Huawei, at the very least, strongly appears to be in bed with Chinese intelligence agencies. These types of issues are not trifle, and erring on the side of caution is always the best choice, whether that means being overly cautious or not.

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, straight_stewie said:

Yes. It gets a lot of criminals into trouble. How are you equating the ability to show that someone was at a crime scene, had a reason to commit the crime, and had the tools necessary to commit the crime to racism? And just to bring to light how silly it is to bash other countries for things: https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2018/11/06/308935/our-racist-education-system

 

Let me say this simply: Everyone in an advanced country thinks their country is somehow better than all the others. Yet, all advanced countries have the same problems and engage in the same activities. Every advanced nation has problems with racism, sexism, mass surveillance, and quality of life inequities.
 

Not going to reply to this as politics is not allowed to be discussed. I will say that you should not point to an opinion piece when trying to prove a fact. The US is one of the few places in the developed world where inexperienced police officers carry arms and as a result minorities are not very appreciative of their actions. Lets leave it at that. 

34 minutes ago, straight_stewie said:

So, given that no matter what we do or want, we will be under surveillance, I would rather be under surveillance by my own government. At least that way we're not increasing the risk of losing state secrets at the same time. Ideally there would be no mass surveillance of any kind, but those days are long gone, so it's time to make lemonade from lemons.

The US is a sieve for state secrets where everyone is out to get each other, the media especially. For the average Joe blog, we're just not interesting enough to actively be under surveillance. I rather doubt they are looking at what we do. 

34 minutes ago, straight_stewie said:

Additionally, as I've spent much time showing in previous replies, Huawei, at the very least, strongly appears to be in bed with Chinese intelligence agencies. These types of issues are not trifle, and erring on the side of caution is always the best choice, whether that means being overly cautious or not.

You've just answered your own question. There we go a vested interest. 

[Drak3]

1 minute ago, RorzNZ said:

The US is one of the few places in the developed world where inexperienced police officers carry arms and as a result minorities are not very appreciative of their actions.

Probably because a few key minorities make up a majority of the crime. Disproportionately so.