[Update with Pricing] Google forces European Android OEMS to pay Up To $40 licensing fee per device for Google Apps

[VanayadGaming]

So google has to pay a fine. If the manufacturers want to bundle all the google services, they can continue in doing so. If they don't, they have to pay a tax. Seems fair.

[Linus_torvalds]

6 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

My phone is using like 800MB total out of the 1,66 GB. Its not that unreasonable.

 

Which means it is linux, and just like in normal linux you have to install the tools you need(busybox). Time to face reality  .

My nexus 5 uses 260 MB on Sailfish OS... That's real linux. Even windows 7 did not use that much RAM on my PC when i had it. Windows 7 used to use about 600-ish MB out my 2 GB RAM back in 2009-2010.

 

Call it real linux if you want but that does not change reality where you always need some app to do some basic thing which you could do on linux (Sailfish OS) with one command. Root is great example for that.

 

"Real linux" without root. HAHA

[yian88]

On 10/16/2018 at 11:00 PM, asus killer said:

android is crap, what we need is a good alternative. Opportunity for someone to come forward.

Please android is the best  phone OS, iOS doesnt count because its not open source and even if it were it iOS store wouldnt be available so its pointless.

Whats crap here is google's behaviour.

No one will come forward and NO we do not need another open source OS that ends up like linux distros with no common store or services everyone preinstalling whatever software they want and no app/game works on multiple devices because of software mismatch.

 

Even if you try to make another Android OS  without a giant like google behind and usefull stable services its 100% useless, just like Gnome phones or ubuntu phones that no one ever used.

[Commodus]

20 hours ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

Amazon has been doing it for what a decade in the US. Yep just looked it up. Amazon has been doing it for 11 years. Shipping forked android without google services.

 

OP made that explicit suggestion in his original post. That's who.

 

It's a free option. Dont want it? Make something else. It's stupid and ridiculous. This isn't microsoft (or apple) where they prevented people from using third party browsers. This isnt microsoft where they are charging for the product. 

 

Almost every single android product ships with alternative browsers as well. Snapdragon browser, or samsung browser, etc etc. Its a null argument.

 

There is absolutely no legal justification for a free product to be regulated as antitrust in this matter. Nothing but laziness stops these companies from using something else.

 

But hey, congrats EU, now google simply charges for its services and locks things down more instead. Very productive thinking. 

Amazon also tried a phone and it failed spectacularly, in part because it didn't have the Play Store.  Its tablets and media players have worked thanks to their limited purposes -- they're Prime Video and Netflix viewers.  You can succeed with a forked version of Android outside of China, but only if you avoid making a phone.

 

You make it sound as if competing with Android is just a matter of spending a couple of years on an OS and waiting for the money to roll in.  Er, no.  Few companies have the resources to spend the several years it'd take to develop a quality OS that would seriously challenge Android... and of course, unless they could promise all the big apps, the platform still wouldn't go anywhere.  Just ask Microsoft how well Windows Phone/Mobile went when people couldn't get key apps... including YouTube, which Google purposefully blocked (even when Microsoft wrote its own app) to punish its rival for offering a competing search engine.  So if you're going to develop your own OS, you'd better not make the mistake of competing with Google's cash cow.

 

Yes, most Android devices ship with alternative browsers and they're even set up by default, but you still have to include Chrome whether you want to or not.  And that doesn't escape the whole search bar problem -- you must include that search bar, placed on the home screen by default, or you lose all of the software you need to offer a competitive Android phone.

 

Antitrust regulation is not dictated by whether or not a product is free or paid.  In fact, something being free can be more likely to face scrutiny, because that can hint at anti-competitive behaviour like price dumping (where you knowingly take a loss to make it impossible to compete) or, in Google's case, holding companies over a barrel to get what it wants.  You want this OS to be free?  You have to let our features take prominence, or else.

 

Also: 1,000th post

[asus killer]

40 minutes ago, yian88 said:

Please android is the best  phone OS, iOS doesnt count because its not open source and even if it were it iOS store wouldnt be available so its pointless.

Whats crap here is google's behaviour.

No one will come forward and NO we do not need another open source OS that ends up like linux distros with no common store or services everyone preinstalling whatever software they want and no app/game works on multiple devices because of software mismatch.

 

Even if you try to make another Android OS  without a giant like google behind and usefull stable services its 100% useless, just like Gnome phones or ubuntu phones that no one ever used.

the "Alphabet Inc" force strong is in this one

[dalekphalm]

3 hours ago, mate_mate91 said:

My nexus 5 uses 260 MB on Sailfish OS... That's real linux. Even windows 7 did not use that much RAM on my PC when i had it. Windows 7 used to use about 600-ish MB out my 2 GB RAM back in 2009-2010.

 

Call it real linux if you want but that does not change reality where you always need some app to do some basic thing which you could do on linux (Sailfish OS) with one command. Root is great example for that.

 

"Real linux" without root. HAHA

Dude, c'mon. You're using the "No true Scotsman" fallacy.

 

Android runs the Linux Kernel. Therefore it is Linux. It's a very customized Linux, with a lot of features locked or inaccessible, but it's still Linux. You might think it's a shitty distro, or that it's lacking in key features, but that does not take away from the fact that yes, Android is Linux.

2 hours ago, yian88 said:

Please android is the best  phone OS, iOS doesnt count because its not open source and even if it were it iOS store wouldnt be available so its pointless.

Whats crap here is google's behaviour.

No one will come forward and NO we do not need another open source OS that ends up like linux distros with no common store or services everyone preinstalling whatever software they want and no app/game works on multiple devices because of software mismatch.

 

Even if you try to make another Android OS  without a giant like google behind and usefull stable services its 100% useless, just like Gnome phones or ubuntu phones that no one ever used.

You lost me at iOS doesn't count. Dude, an OS does not need to be open source to count.

[yian88]

5 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

Dude, c'mon. You're using the "No true Scotsman" fallacy.

 

Android runs the Linux Kernel. Therefore it is Linux. It's a very customized Linux, with a lot of features locked or inaccessible, but it's still Linux. You might think it's a shitty distro, or that it's lacking in key features, but that does not take away from the fact that yes, Android is Linux.

You lost me at iOS doesn't count. Dude, an OS does not need to be open source to count.

It doesnt count in the context of the previous quoted guy that said we need a new better one, and if its not open source it cant be, iOS is iphone only and apple will never give to anyone else even for money period. Hence only android option remains on the table and its a pretty good damn one, except google fucking things up here and there. If you take android optimize it for your device hardware, remove all google services and default software and use your own, thats as close as you will ever get to the best phone OS, but without the app store, and android updates (security/features/bugfixes) your phone is 0, and phone manufacturers dont have the cash to each maintain their own fork of Android.

[dalekphalm]

7 minutes ago, yian88 said:

It doesnt count in the context of the previous quoted guy that said we need a new better one, and if its not open source it cant be, iOS is iphone only and apple will never give to anyone else even for money period.

I'm entirely confused by this sentence.

 

I just looked through the entire thread. @asus killer didn't mention anything about Open Source that I could see.

 

Yes iOS is Apple only. It's still an alternative to Android.

 

If you're talking about new OEM's using a different OS all together? Well, frankly, I doubt it'll happen, since OEM's forking Android just adds more fragmentation, and an Android fork without the Google App store loses a lot of value.

 

And lack of apps would kill any totally new entrant, as it has every single other time. Basically, you need full Google Services on any new OS for it to have a chance, and Google will refuse to make their apps for new OS's. They did so with Microsoft and fucked over Windows Mobile pretty hard.

7 minutes ago, yian88 said:

Hence only android option remains on the table and its a pretty good damn one, except google fucking things up here and there. If you take android optimize it for your device hardware, remove all google services and default software and use your own, thats as close as you will ever get to the best phone OS, but without the app store, and android updates (security/features/bugfixes) your phone is 0, and phone manufacturers dont have the cash to each maintain their own fork of Android.

You say remove all the Google Services, but frankly that's one of the biggest reasons people choose Android. Android without Google Services isn't worth much.

[asus killer]

6 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

I'm entirely confused by this sentence.

 

I just looked through the entire thread. @asus killer didn't mention anything about Open Source that I could see.

 

Yes iOS is Apple only. It's still an alternative to Android.

 

If you're talking about new OEM's using a different OS all together? Well, frankly, I doubt it'll happen, since OEM's forking Android just adds more fragmentation, and an Android fork without the Google App store loses a lot of value.

 

And lack of apps would kill any totally new entrant, as it has every single other time. Basically, you need full Google Services on any new OS for it to have a chance, and Google will refuse to make their apps for new OS's. They did so with Microsoft and fucked over Windows Mobile pretty hard.

You say remove all the Google Services, but frankly that's one of the biggest reasons people choose Android. Android without Google Services isn't worth much.

didn't wanted to had up to this open source discussion, but android really isn't open source at all, exactly because of the google services and especially app store problem mentioned. It's as open as a jail cell from a maximum security jail. Alphabet has complete control over the phone manufacturers.

 

Still i disagree there could never be an alternative, it would be difficult but not impossible. This could be the way to go, make an alternative open source and without app fees

https://www.techrepublic.com/blog/software-engineer/app-store-fees-percentages-and-payouts-what-developers-need-to-know/ 

[jagdtigger]

2 hours ago, asus killer said:

but android really isn't open source at all

Yes it is! The whole OS is open source except for the google stuff. AOSP is a full fledged OS in itself. And there are trustworthy stores like fdroid, not just google play....

[Mihle]

Btw

Anyone knows of this also count for the Android One program or what it was called?

 

(The one that is stock android)

[asus killer]

51 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Yes it is! The whole OS is open source except for the google stuff. AOSP is a full fledged OS in itself. And there are trustworthy stores like fdroid, not just google play....

technically you're right, still i maintain what i said, it isn't

 

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/07/googles-iron-grip-on-android-controlling-open-source-by-any-means-necessary/

https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/android-really-open-source-matter/

[jagdtigger]

39 minutes ago, asus killer said:

technically you're right, still i maintain what i said, it isn't

So you are trying to dispute hard facts with your beliefs? That aint gonna end well....

[asus killer]

1 hour ago, jagdtigger said:

So you are trying to dispute hard facts with your beliefs? 

i believe you ignored the links i posted.

[Drak3]

2 hours ago, PacketMan said:

obvious Google changed over the years

No, they haven't. They've been like this for nearly their entirety as anything beyond literally just a search engine.

[dalekphalm]

2 hours ago, asus killer said:

i believe you ignored the links i posted.

The links don't disprove Android being open source.

 

However, due to Google Services being proprietary, Google maintains control.

 

That doesn't stop Android itself from being Open Source.

[GilmourD]

On 10/16/2018 at 8:53 PM, AluminiumTech said:

Also, those OEMs had to sign legal paperwork and Google had to approve of the device before they allowed it. But yes.

I would imagine that Google would want to make sure that a device was capable of running Android apps before approving it to get the app store. However, with how many absolute garbage $30 tablets there are floating around with a full Android installation... Do you think Google is actually approving all these devices?

[AlTech]

9 minutes ago, GilmourD said:

I would imagine that Google would want to make sure that a device was capable of running Android apps before approving it to get the app store.

Actually no.

 

The main issue is that Google Play Services - which every first party Google app relies on and uses and many 3rd party apps rely on, is only available to OEMs which sign Google's licensing agreement because it's proprietary.

And slowly over time Google has stopped contributing back to APIs in Android itself and put more and more APIs in the Google Play Services to effectively force people to use Google Android and not AOSP Android.

[asus killer]

1 hour ago, dalekphalm said:

The links don't disprove Android being open source.

 

However, due to Google Services being proprietary, Google maintains control.

 

That doesn't stop Android itself from being Open Source.

I believe we are in a loop because i already agreed texhucallly it is open source. Still that was not my point since the conversation started saying android is open source in oposition to ios.

[AlTech]

Added update with new pricing info from the Verge

[Guest]

On 10/17/2018 at 9:12 AM, AluminiumTech said:

True although I'd argue Google's handling of Android has been quite awful to say the least.

This is actually interesting because it reminds me that Android wasn't originally developed by Google.  I wonder what would have happened if Yahoo or Amazon had bought it up instead or left is as a stand-alone company? Would we have seen BADA take off or still have Windows Mobile and Symbian? 

[dalekphalm]

14 hours ago, RorzNZ said:

This is actually interesting because it reminds me that Android wasn't originally developed by Google.  I wonder what would have happened if Yahoo or Amazon had bought it up instead or left is as a stand-alone company? Would we have seen BADA take off or still have Windows Mobile and Symbian? 

I imagine that if another megacorp had acquired Android, we'd just have different problems. For example, mandatory Alexa app integration, or something to that effect.

 

Had they stayed independent, I think that Google wouldn't be so anal about which platforms get their services (*cough* Windows Mobile *cough*). In this scenario, I think Google would actually be pushing out their services to literally any mobile OS that allowed it, to increase maximum user count.

 

That might have actually helped multiple smaller OS's become bigger players. I imagine that it would have left the mobile OS space in a better situation, with more than 2 major choices (one of which is Hardware locked).

[FPSwithaWacomTablet]

On 10/16/2018 at 4:14 PM, LordOTaco said:

Actually isn't android mostly linux? 

Linux is only an OS kernel, which origins are not from Google. It's job is to schedule tasks and allocate resources. Everything else like fancier file systems, GUI, apps, etc. are made by Google, which comprises the Android experience. Google doesn't need to open-source the Android experience; they created it originally. The only thing not made by Google is the Linux kernel (I say this although Google also submits Linux kernel patches as well.)

 

Google is on its way to replace the Android OS with Fuschia, which doesn't depend on the Linux kernel at all. They can do this after years of R&D and commercial development of the Android/Linux OS, for which they have developed considerable expertise. From there, Google is basically going to be on the same level as Apple when it comes to dictating software policies moving forward.

 

That being said, Google did create the software originally, so they have the rights to charge fees for their software. They were only able to bundle it for free because of the data mining side of things. GDPR wants to eliminate that sort of mentality, so Google is basically forced to deal in the traditional way of doing business: charge for licensing per device, like most Windows laptops.

[Guest]

46 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

I imagine that if another megacorp had acquired Android, we'd just have different problems. For example, mandatory Alexa app integration, or something to that effect.

 

Had they stayed independent, I think that Google wouldn't be so anal about which platforms get their services (*cough* Windows Mobile *cough*). In this scenario, I think Google would actually be pushing out their services to literally any mobile OS that allowed it, to increase maximum user count.

 

That might have actually helped multiple smaller OS's become bigger players. I imagine that it would have left the mobile OS space in a better situation, with more than 2 major choices (one of which is Hardware locked).

However we should consider that google search is available on almost any platform, and google maps is available on both iOS and Android - the main aspect is they worked very collaboratively on that. 

[LinusOnLine]

On 10/16/2018 at 9:39 PM, AluminiumTech said:

Updates:

So, we now know that Google will be charging Up To $40 USD per Android Device depending on the Pixel density of the device.

 

It is like they are trying to get people to buy Iphones instead