First Uncensored Adult Game for Steam gets Banned in 28 Countries

[mr moose]

4 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Ahh no, see edit. Think online payment processors. If you object to this idea stop paying for stuff online.

 

Zero personal information would be given or possible to get. Card number only, nothing else.

So do you have a card that allows for age verification without storing any identity information already?  It sounds to me like any card with a set number on it can be linked to personal information (at either end), where as a card with several single use codes could be (for all intents and purposes) almost perfectly divorced of any information, in fact with single use codes you wouldn't even be able to track which accounts are the same person over different websites becasue each website would receive a different code.

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, Thaldor said:

@leadeater and @mr moose, you are in the very core problem why there really isn't a good age verification on any site or service. Problem really isn't how it's done, there's a lot of ways how it could be done, problem is that every country has it's own laws and demand different level of verification and getting something global would need so much cooperation between coutries and their governments to make laws or make ammentments that it's just impossible.

I had considered that, but for the most part a website can only offer what s legally allowed in that country anyway. So it will never be a global solution.  If for example if steam was to adopt this method of age verification, all it has to do is verifiy one number for each account, after that,  that account can buy all the 18+ content that steam is allowed to sell. Should that country have different laws about why the content isn't available then age verification is the problem is it? And you are not going to be able to use age codes sole in the UK or Australia to buy content in the US so why try to implement it across borders?

 

[leadeater]

14 minutes ago, mr moose said:

So do you have a card that allows for age verification without storing any identity information already?  It sounds to me like any card with a set number on it can be linked to personal information (at either end), where as a card with several single use codes could be (for all intents and purposes) almost perfectly divorced of any information, in fact with single use codes you wouldn't even be able to track which accounts are the same person over different websites becasue each website would receive a different code.

Right up until you use it to buy something, or pay for the card not in cash. It'll be traceable in most cases if it's necessary to do so. Single use or limit multiple use is nothing more than a hassle to me, get something once be it $5, $10, $20 etc then never have to deal with it again, ever.

 

And no it could only ever be linked at one end, the issuer of the card. Payment Express couldn't tell you anything about me or my Visa card other than it's a valid card number and security code.

 

The websites/services using the verification service would not see the number at all, same as websites that use online payment processors. When a site says they do not store your credit card information that's because they never got it in the first place.

 

Literally just replace Online Payment Processor with Online Age Verification and job done, instead of checking credit cards it's age verification cards. You don't even have to have anything on the card other than the code and the issuer not store anything after verification and issuing of card, if allowed under law or w/e.

[mr moose]

3 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Right up until you use it to buy something, or pay for the card not in cash. It'll be traceable in most cases if it's necessary to do so. Single use or limit multiple use is nothing more than a hassle to me, get something once be it $5, $10, $20 etc then never have to deal with it again, ever.

 

And no it could only ever be linked at one end, the issuer of the card. Payment Express couldn't tell you anything about me or my Visa card other than it's a valid card number and security code.

 

The websites/services using the verification service would not see the number at all, same as websites that use online payment processors. When a site says they do not store your credit card information that's because they never got it in the first place.

 

Literally just replace Online Payment Processor with Online Age Verification and job done, instead of checking credit cards it's age verification cards. You don't even have to have anything on the card other than the code and the issue not store anything after verification and issuing of card, if allowed under law or w/e.

so we are talking about the same thing, I'm just referring to a multiple single use buy over the counter type.

[Aetheria]

32 minutes ago, leadeater said:

And neither would an 18+ card, you're giving them a number not the literal card, it's a valid number or it's not. Online verification service would do a validity check on behalf of services that use them but would not store any actual data and it's sole purpose would be their ability to hook in to multiple different identity authenticators like NZ Hospitality 18+ card, like online payment processors.

 

You'd have to have a lot of trust in everyone up and down this process. I wouldn't want a gov't server somewhere with a list of all the online services which pinged my ID. I'm already using a VPN just to fuck with the gov't's current ISP data retention policies.

[leadeater]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

so we are talking about the same thing, I'm just referring to a multiple single use buy over the counter type.

Yep, I just think single use is nothing but a pain. I agree with not using a legal form of identification even if they only ever see the card/drivers license number or the verification services does so an 18+ card however each country want to do it is nicer. Hell have both permanent and single use, I'll be getting the permanent because nothing would annoy me more than needing to use it and not be able to.

 

If it existed I'd see it getting used for age restricted game and movie purchases or watching age restricted content on Netflix, I just foresee it becoming a real problem if it were just single use codes etc.

[Thaldor]

4 minutes ago, mr moose said:

I had considered that, but for the most part a website can only offer what s legally allowed in that country anyway. So it will never be a global solution.  If for example if steam was to adopt this method of age verification, all it has to do is verifiy one number for each account, after that,  that account can buy all the 18+ content that steam is allowed to sell. Should that country have different laws about why the content isn't available then age verification is the problem is it? And you are not going to be able to use age codes sole in the UK or Australia to buy content in the US so why try to implement it across borders?

 

And I left that out because I thought that implementing verification methods of single coutries isn't really a choice. Steam as an example, just think how much Steam would bloat if it started to implement countries internal verifications, first it would be NZ, next UK and Australia, then Japan and South-Korea and so on, at some point there would be tens of different verification methods to support and that just isn't worthwhile on any level. And it just isn't that easy to accept a code and go on, they need to check the code for validity and probably some countries will demand systems to also devalidate accounts and then there's the whole maintenance when "Bogobogo-islands" decide to upgrade their verification system and they decide to change the whole process how to validate the codes. Not to even talk about Finland which decides to use their online identity verification system for age verification and is something that no one else has and reguires a lot more resources. It would be just a huge mess.

[leadeater]

1 minute ago, Aetheria said:

You'd have to have a lot of trust in everyone up and down this process. I wouldn't want a gov't server somewhere with a list of all the online services which pinged my ID. I'm already using a VPN just to fuck with the gov't's current ISP data retention policies.

I've got better things to worry about, VPN honestly doesn't protect people as much as they think it does. Optimally they wouldn't actually see any services you use it for but if you don't trust that is what is happening all good, someone at some point is bound to abuse it.

 

Anything involving money starts to remove anonymity really quickly, even when you try and hide it.

[mr moose]

4 minutes ago, Thaldor said:

And I left that out because I thought that implementing verification methods of single coutries isn't really a choice. Steam as an example, just think how much Steam would bloat if it started to implement countries internal verifications, first it would be NZ, next UK and Australia, then Japan and South-Korea and so on, at some point there would be tens of different verification methods to support and that just isn't worthwhile on any level. And it just isn't that easy to accept a code and go on, they need to check the code for validity and probably some countries will demand systems to also devalidate accounts and then there's the whole maintenance when "Bogobogo-islands" decide to upgrade their verification system and they decide to change the whole process how to validate the codes. Not to even talk about Finland which decides to use their online identity verification system for age verification and is something that no one else has and reguires a lot more resources. It would be just a huge mess.

I don't think it would be all that hard to implement at all, Ebay already automatically implements multiple tax requirements on individual purchases and accounts around the world.  This would be little more than seeing the country the account is held in, checking the IP (to validate the country) and verify the code to the that countries system. It really wouldn't be that hard to implement.

 

[Aetheria]

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

VPN honestly doesn't protect people as much as they think it does

As far as the ISP's record shows, I just spent a lot of time on some server in Romania. That's all I need. I'm probably just browsing youtube while I'm using the VPN, but that's my business, nonetheless. Even if the VPN is logging everything I do, the only info they have on me is my actual IP address half a world away.

 

3 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Anything involving money starts to remove anonymity really quickly, even when you try and hide it.

Anonymous single-use prepaid cards from a supermarket, paid in cash. Unfortunately, you can't get them in the $1000 capacities you used to be able to, but they're still good enough for most purposes.

[leadeater]

1 minute ago, Aetheria said:

Anonymous single-use prepaid cards from a supermarket, paid in cash. Unfortunately, you can't get them in the $1000 capacities you used to be able to, but they're still good enough for most purposes.

Do something dumb enough with that card and I bet they would have a fair decent shot of tracking down who brought it. The number will be traceable to store that got supplied it, they would have a sale history of it down to time, if recent enough video footage of the purchase.

 

Though I trust most people using those cards aren't doing that dumb enough thing to warrant a reverse trace like that. There's some much better less traceable options now days... but I'll just leave that topic alone heh.

[Doobeedoo]

Oh yes, saved. 

[Technous285]

If we got a X18+ rating for erotic games like we do for TV/Movies (limiting physical retail sales to ACT & NT, but no limits of interstate transit and sales), I wouldn't be surprised to see this game being hit with that rating. But as it currently stands, the censors in the ACB are likely to be too squicked to accept such a rating for games even though it'd bring it fully in-line with our TV/Movie rating scheme.

 

Though the Age-gate Steam provides is rather flimsy but I don't see how they could properly implement a solid one without it bloating out to insane proportions to cover all edge-cases.

 

As it is, Aussies gotta use our rights of Parallel Imports to 'import' the game from the US Steam Store (which is what we're forced to use anyway) even if the game's been banned from sales within our borders.

[Ryujin2003]

I'll just assume most of the links and videos attached to this are NSFW, so I'll have to wait until I'm home and not in a public library....

[ItsMitch]

9 minutes ago, Ryujin2003 said:

I'll just assume most of the links and videos attached to this are NSFW, so I'll have to wait until I'm home and not in a public library....

dont check the steam screenshots for god damn it

[Rohith_Kumar_Sp]

surprised India didn't ban it, then again they only seem to get triggered with Hindu gods in them. like how Fallout games are banned in India. 

[Aetheria]

5 hours ago, leadeater said:

Do something dumb enough with that card and I bet they would have a fair decent shot of tracking down who brought it. The number will be traceable to store that got supplied it, they would have a sale history of it down to time, if recent enough video footage of the purchase.

 

Though I trust most people using those cards aren't doing that dumb enough thing to warrant a reverse trace like that. There's some much better less traceable options now days... but I'll just leave that topic alone heh.

Possible, not likely. They'd have to completely compromise the VPN, then pull the payment provider's data, then the supermarket's data, at which point they'd have a low-quality image of someone. At the point of pulling the VPN's logs, it'd be easier to identify me from my ISP and going to the service address.

[leadeater]

4 hours ago, Aetheria said:

Possible, not likely. They'd have to completely compromise the VPN, then pull the payment provider's data, then the supermarket's data, at which point they'd have a low-quality image of someone. At the point of pulling the VPN's logs, it'd be easier to identify me from my ISP and going to the service address.

I was meaning a law enforcement authority, wouldn't need to break the VPN at all or even look at it. Warrant for payment information then follow that.

[mr moose]

9 hours ago, Technous285 said:

If we got a X18+ rating for erotic games like we do for TV/Movies (limiting physical retail sales to ACT & NT, but no limits of interstate transit and sales), I wouldn't be surprised to see this game being hit with that rating. But as it currently stands, the censors in the ACB are likely to be too squicked to accept such a rating for games even though it'd bring it fully in-line with our TV/Movie rating scheme.

 

Though the Age-gate Steam provides is rather flimsy but I don't see how they could properly implement a solid one without it bloating out to insane proportions to cover all edge-cases.

 

As it is, Aussies gotta use our rights of Parallel Imports to 'import' the game from the US Steam Store (which is what we're forced to use anyway) even if the game's been banned from sales within our borders.

As far as I know it's not banned in Australia, they haven't offered it for sale because they can't age verify on steam.  Australia does have RC rating for video games, it's just that selling the game on CD/DVD in a shop is not appealing so its easier too modify the game for Australia or just not sell it here.

[Theminecraftaddict555]

On 9/19/2018 at 8:15 AM, leadeater said:

So when are those 28 countries banning pornography? Inconsistent idiots, oh no not a age restricted game! Think of the children!

 

What exactly do they think this achieves lol.

Pornography = ok

 

adult game = Intense aneurysm intensifies

[Thaldor]

8 hours ago, mr moose said:

I don't think it would be all that hard to implement at all, Ebay already automatically implements multiple tax requirements on individual purchases and accounts around the world.  This would be little more than seeing the country the account is held in, checking the IP (to validate the country) and verify the code to the that countries system. It really wouldn't be that hard to implement.

 

What I bolded is the biggest problem. Knowing how governments (at least Finlands) handle their IT-systems these market and savings crazy times (at least Finland sucks on this department and bad, because someone in their "wiseness" made a law that government acquisitions must be competetively tendered and they must accept the lowest offer), they have problems building only nation wide healthcare database, not even talk about how much money was burned and how badly at the start it was build, electronic medical receipt system, something like age verification system is going to be way too complicated, eats way too much resources and has way too many features to be ever really in working order.

 

Even if we had very good system builders in every country and the systems worked it would be a nightmare and probably impossibility to build global service that could support every and each countrys verification system if they all were to make their own. It's not just that the user adds their code to the service and the service asks from the users countrys verification service if that code is valid. A) There must very good securities in every system because leaking of those codes would make the system basicly useless B) There should not be open for all checking system because then someone would just build a service that would go through each and every of those codes with brute force and even manage to get codes and leak them to the internet or invalidate a hefty amount of those codes. And so we get to the problem of implementation because now we have a lot of probably very different systems with very different security systems and platforms that our global service must support to get people validated for R18 material and probably there are some costs to get access to every countrys databases, it becomes a real question to either leave the R18 material out or build some decentralaized service and operate it from some country that doesn't have laws for R18 material and doesn't care about international laws or lawenforcement and leave the whole mess out or just provide R18 access to few countries.

 

Something like tax system is easy because you don't need to rely on systems that different coutries build by themselves, you just need a database where you collect and maintain what tax percents every country or even state collects and it's all about your systems and their compatibility. Without some kind of global standardization this kind of age verification system is impossible mess and actually only "organization" that has power and possibility to standardize something like this is EU (UN could do as much as always, get so far that one of the forming countries use their veto and end it there) and that would only mean that it would be probably easy to implement age verification system to cover EU-countries (and considering brexit and other international situations I would guess that at least US and Russia would build systems that are completely different than EUs standard, just to make the life of companies in other parts of the world harder). And "just think of the children"-card isn't that powerful in the international politics.

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, Thaldor said:

What I bolded is the biggest problem. Knowing how governments (at least Finlands) handle their IT-systems these market and savings crazy times (at least Finland sucks on this department and bad, because someone in their "wiseness" made a law that government acquisitions must be competetively tendered and they must accept the lowest offer), they have problems building only nation wide healthcare database, not even talk about how much money was burned and how badly at the start it was build, electronic medical receipt system, something like age verification system is going to be way too complicated, eats way too much resources and has way too many features to be ever really in working order.

 

There is nothing overly hard about this, it is purely a random hash generator and the number is given or sold to people who can verify their age, there is no need for records or major infrastructure.

2 minutes ago, Thaldor said:

Even if we had very good system builders in every country and the systems worked it would be a nightmare and probably impossibility to build global service that could support every and each countrys verification system if they all were to make their own.

Why would it be so difficult, Ebay already has a global system that does exactly that.   MS and every major software company has a serial key system that does this.  It really not that hard.  Steam already knows what country you are in, so they already know what the age is supposed to be and they have a number that they can verify.  that's it, there is no complicated system they have to interact with, hell even the hash can be controlled by a signle multinational organist like the EU or similar.

2 minutes ago, Thaldor said:

It's not just that the user adds their code to the service and the service asks from the users countrys verification service if that code is valid. A) There must very good securities in every system because leaking of those codes would make the system basicly useless B) There should not be open for all checking system because then someone would just build a service that would go through each and every of those codes with brute force and even manage to get codes and leak them to the internet or invalidate a hefty amount of those codes.

 If every software company on the planet can make serial keys for heir software and most of them are secure enough then why would it be difficult for this?  Brute force what exactly?  Steam can simply have a limit of 5 attempts and lock the account like they do for passwords. 

2 minutes ago, Thaldor said:

And so we get to the problem of implementation because now we have a lot of probably very different systems with very different security systems and platforms that our global service must support to get people validated for R18 material and probably there are some costs to get access to every countrys databases, it becomes a real question to either leave the R18 material out or build some decentralaized service and operate it from some country that doesn't have laws for R18 material and doesn't care about international laws or lawenforcement and leave the whole mess out or just provide R18 access to few countries.

None of that is a problem,  game devs already know what countries they can sell their game in and the process for getting a rating.  This adds literally nothing to process.  In fact it would be easier to implement than paypal integration or 2FA. because there is no personal information that needs to be managed. The whole service simple verifies that the client has a legitimate age code. that's it.

2 minutes ago, Thaldor said:

 

Something like tax system is easy because you don't need to rely on systems that different coutries build by themselves,

Neither would this rely on varying systems. Tax systems vary widely between nations and even within nations some states have different tax requirements, if Ebay can handle it then this is a walk in the park.

2 minutes ago, Thaldor said:

you just need a database where you collect and maintain what tax percents every country or even state collects and it's all about your systems and their compatibility. Without some kind of global standardization this kind of age verification system is impossible mess and actually only "organization" that has power and possibility to standardize something like this is EU (UN could do as much as always, get so far that one of the forming countries use their veto and end it there) and that would only mean that it would be probably easy to implement age verification system to cover EU-countries (and considering brexit and other international situations I would guess that at least US and Russia would build systems that are completely different than EUs standard, just to make the life of companies in other parts of the world harder). And "just think of the children"-card isn't that powerful in the international politics.

What are you thinking here?  there are already standardised methods for these things.  It's just a hash that gets sold to people who can verify their age in their home country. nothing more nothing less. 

 

 

 

I really fail to see how this is so complicated, If you can use your paypal anywhere in the world you can verify a number is legitimate.   Local governments only have to ensure the numbers are only sold to people who can verify their age (ergo sell them at pubs, bottle-o's, pharmacies and adult stores etc).  In fact the government doesn't even have to implement a the physical system, that can be done by the EU or similar as I said earlier.

[Thaldor]

33 minutes ago, mr moose said:

-snip-

What I'm trying to say is that there's no problems or complexity in one country or state making an age verification system. The problem is the complexity for the one who tries to make a service that requires access to all those age verification systems that the countris/states made. For example the only problem UK, US, EU, Russia, Japan and China to make age verification systems is to choose how to make it, the problem for Valve, Netflix, PornHub and others is to make their system compatible with all of the systems before mentioned countries made.

 

Like I said in the last lootbox thread, Finland has this idetification system called Tunnistus through which people can login to different places with their ID-cards, mobile authetication or online banking accounts, like I login with Tunnistus to reserve a dentist appointment from public healthcare by login through their service to my online banking account through which my bank authenticates me as who I am (sends my name and social security number to the Tunnistus which then logs me into the public healthcares site). Tunnistus uses probably totally different platform with totally different security, authentication and communication systems than New Zealands 18+card system and this creates the problem because Steam would need to be compatible with both of these systems (if Finland was to use Tunnistus as age verification system) to validate users from Finland and NZ to be in legal age to see the content.

[leadeater]

51 minutes ago, Thaldor said:

Even if we had very good system builders in every country and the systems worked it would be a nightmare and probably impossibility to build global service that could support every and each countrys verification system if they all were to make their own.

I do agree however if we can do it for credit cards then it can be done, much bigger incentive to get something like a credit card system working though, money is a great motivator.

[JoostinOnline]

On 9/19/2018 at 6:41 AM, matrix07012 said:

It always shocks me that some western countries think that anime tiddies will be the downfall of their civilization or corrupt the children or something.

I don't see any western countries listed.