New Mirrorless camera

[Precept]

Hi All,

 

I am looking for a new mirrorless camera. I currently  do not have much experience with DSLR or mirrorless except for using those belong to family members.

 

After doing a lot of research and checking out a few options in stores i decided on a mirrorless due to the compact size, if there are DSLRs that also meet the portability (or close to) of a mirrorless i will also strongly consider.

 

I am looking for any suggestions or advice you may be able to give. Budget is <1000 Euros for body and lens, current cameras under consideration include Cannon M50 (M50 link), Sony A6000 (A6000 Link).

 

Thanks, Precept

[Origami Cactus]

I have seen a6000 recommended on this forum a lot, and i have to say, i also have it.

It is a good camera, 24mpx is really cool, but no 4k video, also battery life isnt the greatest.

It is very compact, has a nice viewfinder.

[GDRRiley]

The GH4 may be one to add, if you ever plan to do any videos. 

Body alone are looking like 800 or so that gives you 200 or so for a new lense or maybe 2 used ones.

[cc143]

Saying that the battery life of the a6000 isn't the best is the understatement of the deade, I'd change 3 batteries in 5-6 hours when I had mine. Smart adapters don't really work, sony's aspc lenses are expensive and not many, in short i'd advise against it. Its a great camera on paper, but in my experience, owning it for 3 months, all it did was make me carry around my dslr more rather than less which was the point.

 

If video is not a big concern, even though its ok, I'd recommed fuji. The lens system is great, ergonomics are fine, the battery life isn't amazing, but you can shoot with the eye sensor only because you can see all your settings from before turning it on, and its actually quite fast to turn on too. The evfs are better as well in my opinion vs the sony a6x00 cameras at least.

 

The xt3 will be out in a month, that will drive xt2 prices further down even, and possibly within your price range, you could probably get one in the budget used anyway tbh. I bought mine at £700 a few months ago, and haven't used my 5d3 in a while. (I still prefer using it if I don't have to carry it around etc.). I'd go with that instead, or an xpro2. Even the xt20, xe3 and xpro 1 are very viable options, even if they dont look it on paper.

 

The m50 is a better option if you want video af, but the fuji lenses are much better than eos m, and while the m50 is actually a pretty capable camera, I'm not sure its as good as the fujis.

 

All in all, I'd say look long and hard at fuji, but between the a6000 and m50 I'd go with the m50 any day.

[YellowJersey]

For APS-C mirrorless, I'd agree with cc143 and take a good look at Fuji. Sony hasn't been supporting their APS-C line up with lenses lately as they're focusing primarily on full frame. If it's A6000 vs M50, I'd go with the M50 for the sole reason of better lens support.

[Bustapalapeno]

23 hours ago, YellowJersey said:

For APS-C mirrorless, I'd agree with cc143 and take a good look at Fuji. Sony hasn't been supporting their APS-C line up with lenses lately as they're focusing primarily on full frame. If it's A6000 vs M50, I'd go with the M50 for the sole reason of better lens support.

I'd go with the M50 for the sole reason of better lens support....

What?

 

Go on B&H, go to the mirrorless lens section, and you will find this  when you search for mounts.

 

There are precious few Canon EF-M lenses, and if you are adapting full frame Canon glass, you might as well go with the sony, which also has available adapters.

 

Bottom line, get a Fuji.

[whoisjaya]

To be honest, I'd wait for a bit longer since Canon's new fullframe mirrorless camera is - from what I've heard - going to come out quite soon. Even if you're not going to buy it, some other cameras will likely drop in price, so I guess that might be something to keep on mind.

 

Also, what's your focus, stills or videos? 

[cc143]

9 hours ago, Bustapalapeno said:

I'd go with the M50 for the sole reason of better lens support....

What?

 

Go on B&H, go to the mirrorless lens section, and you will find this  when you search for mounts.

 

There are precious few Canon EF-M lenses, and if you are adapting full frame Canon glass, you might as well go with the sony, which also has available adapters.

 

Bottom line, get a Fuji.

The 234 options you mention include a big number of manual only specialty glass and mostly Full Frame ptions, most of which are not viable anyway. Yes sony's system is now more complete in the sense that they do offer most of the FF lenses one would need, but don't make the mistake of thinking it has matured anywhere near what is the requirement for a professional system. Also, adapting lenses on the sony system, even though it is the only system which is supported by third party smart adapters is a pain and on any camera cheaper than an a7rii simply DOESNT WORK! You end up using the lens as a manual lens and thats it.

 

Go narrow those 234 lenses down to the actual number of aps-c lenses available for the sony system. You will find 15 lenses, take out a couple of superzooms and the kit pancake lens and you are left with 4 primes and a couple of general purpose zooms, which are waaaay mre expensive than they should be. Yes, there are some sigma lenses etc. but that still leaves you at at best 15 useable lenses. Using FF glass on APS-C is fine, so long as it allows you to cover the focal ranges necessary etc. What's the guy gonna do? buy a 24-70, giving him a widest focal of 36mm? or go out and buy a 16-35mm? 

 

At least with the Canon system, it has some pretty ok options which are cheap and perform fairly well. Unlike Sony's apsc lineup and there are some point and uses for which the Canon system may prove better than fuji. And that is coming from a guy who has been using fuji extensively over the past 2 years, and my most recent experience is with the xt2, which I've been hailing as "almost the perfect camera"

 

Bottom line Do NOT get an APS-c Sony.

 

The Canon new FF mirrorless is supposed to be out in 2 days, so you can always wait, but the market segment you are looking at is pretty downstream, so the effect would be minimal at best. Therefore, if you do find a good used deal or something, jump on it.

[YellowJersey]

13 hours ago, cc143 said:

The 234 options you mention include a big number of manual only specialty glass and mostly Full Frame ptions, most of which are not viable anyway. Yes sony's system is now more complete in the sense that they do offer most of the FF lenses one would need, but don't make the mistake of thinking it has matured anywhere near what is the requirement for a professional system. Also, adapting lenses on the sony system, even though it is the only system which is supported by third party smart adapters is a pain and on any camera cheaper than an a7rii simply DOESNT WORK! You end up using the lens as a manual lens and thats it.

 

Go narrow those 234 lenses down to the actual number of aps-c lenses available for the sony system. You will find 15 lenses, take out a couple of superzooms and the kit pancake lens and you are left with 4 primes and a couple of general purpose zooms, which are waaaay mre expensive than they should be. Yes, there are some sigma lenses etc. but that still leaves you at at best 15 useable lenses. Using FF glass on APS-C is fine, so long as it allows you to cover the focal ranges necessary etc. What's the guy gonna do? buy a 24-70, giving him a widest focal of 36mm? or go out and buy a 16-35mm? 

 

At least with the Canon system, it has some pretty ok options which are cheap and perform fairly well. Unlike Sony's apsc lineup and there are some point and uses for which the Canon system may prove better than fuji. And that is coming from a guy who has been using fuji extensively over the past 2 years, and my most recent experience is with the xt2, which I've been hailing as "almost the perfect camera"

 

Bottom line Do NOT get an APS-c Sony.

 

The Canon new FF mirrorless is supposed to be out in 2 days, so you can always wait, but the market segment you are looking at is pretty downstream, so the effect would be minimal at best. Therefore, if you do find a good used deal or something, jump on it.

^ This

 

 Besides, as I said in that same post, if you're looking at APS-C mirrorless, Fuji is probably the best option at this point on pretty much every front. Bodies? Plenty to choose from. Lenses? Lots of lenses. Feature packed and high quality? Absolutely.

[EsaT]

On 9/1/2018 at 7:27 PM, Precept said:

After doing a lot of research and checking out a few options in stores i decided on a mirrorless due to the compact size, if there are DSLRs that also meet the portability (or close to) of a mirrorless i will also strongly consider.

 

I am looking for any suggestions or advice you may be able to give. Budget is <1000 Euros for body and lens, current cameras under consideration include Cannon M50 (M50 link), Sony A6000 (A6000 Link).

If you want to be able to keep package reasonably compact/light when adding lenses then body is only part part of equation.

And while even big sensor can be sticked to unergonomically small body, most lenses won't scale really any smaller.

Needed focal plane image circle size and focal lengths needed for certain field views are primary factors for lens size.

Four Thirds format of Olympus and Panasonic is way best for size scaling in lenses.

And has widest range of lenses of mirrorless systems.

 

That Canon M50 is minimal controls pocket Point&Shoot with lens mount.

So if you actually want to learn photography instead of just pressing button, it's excellent for discouraging it.

[Bustapalapeno]

On 9/3/2018 at 3:58 AM, cc143 said:

The 234 options you mention include a big number of manual only specialty glass and mostly Full Frame ptions, most of which are not viable anyway. Yes sony's system is now more complete in the sense that they do offer most of the FF lenses one would need, but don't make the mistake of thinking it has matured anywhere near what is the requirement for a professional system. Also, adapting lenses on the sony system, even though it is the only system which is supported by third party smart adapters is a pain and on any camera cheaper than an a7rii simply DOESNT WORK! You end up using the lens as a manual lens and thats it.

 

Go narrow those 234 lenses down to the actual number of aps-c lenses available for the sony system. You will find 15 lenses, take out a couple of superzooms and the kit pancake lens and you are left with 4 primes and a couple of general purpose zooms, which are waaaay mre expensive than they should be. Yes, there are some sigma lenses etc. but that still leaves you at at best 15 useable lenses. Using FF glass on APS-C is fine, so long as it allows you to cover the focal ranges necessary etc. What's the guy gonna do? buy a 24-70, giving him a widest focal of 36mm? or go out and buy a 16-35mm? 

 

At least with the Canon system, it has some pretty ok options which are cheap and perform fairly well. Unlike Sony's apsc lineup and there are some point and uses for which the Canon system may prove better than fuji. And that is coming from a guy who has been using fuji extensively over the past 2 years, and my most recent experience is with the xt2, which I've been hailing as "almost the perfect camera"

 

Bottom line Do NOT get an APS-c Sony.

 

The Canon new FF mirrorless is supposed to be out in 2 days, so you can always wait, but the market segment you are looking at is pretty downstream, so the effect would be minimal at best. Therefore, if you do find a good used deal or something, jump on it.

Fine. Narrowed search. On B&H, native EF-M lenses with AF, 14 real lenses. On Sony, native APS-C lenses, 33. Some of those are just color variations from Sigma, but still. To say that Canon's native lens support is better for their mirrorless APS-C system is simply not true. Maybe their glass is a little better, but I am very happy with the sharpness of my APS-C Sony glass. 

 

Look, regardless of APS-C system, you can get the basics. A variable "24-70", a reasonable constant, some primes in 24,35, and 50 mm flavors, all that jazz. I'm not saying that Sony has better lens support than Canon, I was originally trying to say that, this statement...

On 9/1/2018 at 6:19 PM, YellowJersey said:

For APS-C mirrorless, I'd agree with cc143 and take a good look at Fuji. Sony hasn't been supporting their APS-C line up with lenses lately as they're focusing primarily on full frame. If it's A6000 vs M50, I'd go with the M50 for the sole reason of better lens support.

doesn't make much sense, since Canon's lens support for APS-C mirrorless hasn't been great either. The only people making really great APS-C lenses are Fuji, but at least with Sony you can use full frame glass without a silly adapter. For example, I love shooting with my FE 85mm on my A6500. 

 

But back to the focus of the question. If you are looking for a mid-range camera system, where do you go? Answer is still Fuji. Especially now that the XT-2 has be knocked down in price. Fuji has a wide range of interesting and well featured body, last-gen bodies with great features and prices, and the only outstanding support for APS-C lenses. There are situations where the M50 may be better for you, or the a6500. (as a handheld, portrait shooter, the more mature eye-AF and stabilization of the Sony cameras keep me plenty happy). But by and large Fuji is the way to go. 

[cc143]

9 hours ago, Bustapalapeno said:

Fine. Narrowed search. On B&H, native EF-M lenses with AF, 14 real lenses. On Sony, native APS-C lenses, 33. Some of those are just color variations from Sigma, but still. To say that Canon's native lens support is better for their mirrorless APS-C system is simply not true. Maybe their glass is a little better, but I am very happy with the sharpness of my APS-C Sony glass.

Sort of extreme proposition I can substantiate: Sony has left its APS-c camera lineup lagging behind. There is no system support. I won't get into the FF Sony argument, because it is largely moot, but, There's several factors that I have to evaluate to see whether a lens is viable for a system, and in summary of those lenses if the entire system is complete or less complete.

 

Canon's APS-c lineup is small, but they do have everything you will need. They are optically ok and their size and weight reflects the ethos of the system in general. That is not true of Sony. I actually did count from the first time I posted, Sony has less than 20 actual viable lenses. That is not from b&h or or some store, its from sony's website adding the sigma art lenses that were introduced a couple of years ago.

 

Now whether you are happy with the camera or system you are holding apparently (and it should) has no bearing. If that were the case, we'd all be shooting 5d classics. By that metric, the 5d mk4 is an excellent camera, while no Sony prior to the a7iii is, in the sense that there are more "dealbreakers" in earlier Sonys than the 5dmk4 for the marginal user. 

 

Also, the argument that you need an adapter to use it, which only costs £100, is very frequently bundled with the camera and works marvelously is asinine. I was a Sony owner, I got a Sony because I had the capability to adapt. I left, largely because it wasn't working, along with a bunch of other reasons. Also, Sony FF glass is also big and heavy and more importantly expensive. So advocating that using FF glass because it is native rather than has an adapter I'm not sure is the correct way to go about it. (Also, I love the double standard when Sony was brand new that adapters were the best thing ever, but now they are "silly" because others use them, and they actually work).

 

Sony's APS-C lineup is simply not viable compared to the competition, yes even Canon. There are many instances where an apsc Canon mirrorless is most suited to that task. With Sony, I can find a better recommendation each and every time. Again, if you want to talk FF that is a different issue.

 

I also don't get the entire eye AF thing. Yes I guess its easier, but I still use my joystick and find the eye and never use the version of it on the xt2. I prefer doing that even, (although moving between 400+ AF points is a bit of a drag.) I would much rather have a good 85 1.8 equivalent than that, or a good lighting ecosystem. I mean, I use my fuji for almost everything now, but for a portrait shoot, being able to use off camera flash would be a much more important thing, even if I dont use it on that occasion so I'd use the Canon.

 

Final point. I'm not saying that you should not like your camera choice or whatever, if you are happy with it, all power to you. I myself am fine with my 5d3. I still very rarely recommend it, and almost never not as an alternative, because I recognise there are better options out there for people who are not constrained by glass investments and over 10 years of brand loyalty. Say what you will, but I have used Canon's products since the days of film, and even in professional settings, they have never failed me. I love fuji, but I can't really say the same. I mostly recommend used nikon's and fujis these days none the less. Just stop always recommending it when you know there are better options out there.

[YellowJersey]

Well, regardless, the consensus is that Fuji would be a better route anyway.

[Precept]

Hi all

 

Thanks for all the help. I finally went for the fujifilm xt30 when it came out and has been working great so far.