US Government will be intermittently jamming GPS near New Mexico until Feburary 24

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, mynameisjuan said:

Next test is cellular blackout then, which would kick off the apocalypse the moment the towers are knocked off. 

 Legit google Telstra Outage on google.com.au - it's a recurring issue in like 2015 / 2016 for Australia

[Ryujin2003]

What everyone is expecting:

 

What is really happening:

 

Believe it or not, but the military does do training excercises, and often, the tow no s and such they train around are more than happy for the "inconvenience".

 

But.. scientifically speaking, how much power would be needed to jam  that much GPS? That would be insane. I would guess they are limiting certain types of GPS location frequencies over that region manually from the satellites, not doing it via jamming or other on the ground technologies.

 

[AshleyAshes]

10 minutes ago, Ryujin2003 said:

But.. scientifically speaking, how much power would be needed to jam  that much GPS? That would be insane. I would guess they are limiting certain types of GPS location frequencies over that region manually from the satellites, not doing it via jamming or other on the ground technologies.

Something like this would get the job done.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASM-135_ASAT

 

[Ryujin2003]

3 minutes ago, AshleyAshes said:

Something like this would get the job done.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASM-135_ASAT

 

 

To be fair, I said ground based. However... Yes, shooting it down would work too. But somehow don't think that's the point of the exercise. Besides, that would leave lasting effects elsewhere on the planet.

[AshleyAshes]

2 minutes ago, Ryujin2003 said:

To be fair, I said ground based. However... Yes, shooting it down would work too. But somehow don't think that's the point of the exercise. Besides, that would leave lasting effects elsewhere on the planet.

Yeah... They're called 'wars', lasting global effects tend to their thing.

 

 

 

[Ryujin2003]

2 minutes ago, AshleyAshes said:

Yeah... They're called 'wars', lasting global effects tend to their thing.

 

 

 

Well, I was talking about global GPS issues as the gaps created from a couple missing satellites would probably be an issue.

[Beowulff83]

24 minutes ago, Ryujin2003 said:

But.. scientifically speaking, how much power would be needed to jam  that much GPS? That would be insane. I would guess they are limiting certain types of GPS location frequencies over that region manually from the satellites, not doing it via jamming or other on the ground technologies

I wouldn't be so sure.  This exercise is probably to test both our capabilities without the aid of gps and also to test our gps jamming ability.

[AshleyAshes]

Just now, Ryujin2003 said:

Well, I was talking about global GPS issues as the gaps created from a couple missing satellites would probably be an issue.

I'm sorry, can you just not grasp how scary and destructive nation's can be during times of war?

[ARikozuM]

Here's a question: Is this going to affect cellular GPS over antennas as this is a satellite outage or will cellular GPS still work?

[Ryujin2003]

2 minutes ago, Beowulff83 said:

I wouldn't be so sure.  This exercise is probably to test both our capabilities without the aid of gps and also to test our gps jamming ability.

How exactly would you had GPS? The GPS has hardcoded timing instants, it broadcasts time. The devices can be jammed by overpowering their ability to receive a clean signal, but for that amount of geographical realestate, it would produce a lot of heat and take a lot of power. I could very well be missing something. So how would you jam that much space?

2 minutes ago, AshleyAshes said:

I'm sorry, can you just not grasp how scary and destructive nation's can be during times of war?

I totally can. I generally believe the big Nations bashibg another is for show. But I don't think anything will happen. We're too content with our small proxy wars to risk anything larger. Russia doesn't have an economy to sustain anything. China couldn't feed itself, North Korea doesn't have an electrical device aside from Kim's iPhone. Iran isn't there yet. The countries in the middle East and eaten Asia would rather nukes Israel. And I don't worry about the US and the European having any issues in the mean time.

 

Proxy wars. Drugs, weapons snuggling, insurgencies, Revolutions... That's how we fight reacted.

 

It is horrible. It is violent. And destructive. But I sorry don't think that everything the government states is a lie. Sometimes you gotta train.

 

2 minutes ago, ARikozuM said:

Here's a question: Is this going to affect cellular GPS over antennas as this is a satellite outage or will cellular GPS still work?

I imagine cellular would work. They get their location from triangulation from towers and wifi for better accuracy. I think it would be more basic tech, like Garmin and military GPS devices that are not on the cellular network.

 

I feel like it would be easier to turn off the GPS than to modify every vehicle for an exercise. Plus readier to turn back on if something happens.. like a plane crashes due to pilot error it something.

[Beowulff83]

6 minutes ago, Ryujin2003 said:

How exactly would you had GPS? The GPS has hardcoded timing instants, it broadcasts time. The devices can be jammed by overpowering their ability to receive a clean signal, but for that amount of geographical realestate, it would produce a lot of heat and take a lot of power. I could very well be missing something. So how would you jam that much space?

This doesn't seem to be a new thing.

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/06/07/us_military_testing_gps_jamming/

[AshleyAshes]

Furthermore for those of you worried that an absence of GPS poses a thread to civil aviation, you're being silly.  GPS being accessible for civilian use didn't even happen until the aftermath of the Soviet Union shooting down the passenger airliner Korean Air Flight 007 in 1983.

equipment.

 

In short, airliners have been traversing the planet long before GPS was available.  There are many, many, many ways an aircraft can navigate safely, GPS is just an extra.  Automatic direction finders, inertial navigation, compasses, RADAR navigation, and VHF omnidirectional range are all systems that can be used.  Not to mention that since this is all over the United States, there's ground based RADAR that is tracking that's watching all aircraft.

[Sniperfox47]

1 minute ago, AshleyAshes said:

Furthermore for those of you worried that an absence of GPS poses a thread to civil aviation, you're being silly.  GPS being accessible for civilian use didn't even happen until the aftermath of the Soviet Union shooting down the passenger airliner Korean Air Flight 007 in 1983.

equipment.

 

In short, airliners have been traversing the planet long before GPS was available.  There are many, many, many ways an aircraft can navigate safely, GPS is just an extra.  Automatic direction finders, inertial navigation, compasses, RADAR navigation, and VHF omnidirectional range are all systems that can be used.  Not to mention that since this is all over the United States, there's ground based RADAR that is tracking that's watching all aircraft.

Emergency services have been getting more and more reliant on GPS though. Think ambulances fed live feeds from the GPS in your phone (which in many places is available as true GPS and not just "coarse location data").

 

There's also the fact that if people have noticed this affecting modern cell phones and GPS navigators, that means it's affecting more than just GPS. Since pretty much every higher end device made in the past 4 years has had GLONASS at the very least, many of which also have Galileo, that might be indicative of them jamming those signals as well.

 

We'll have to wait and see how this pans out. I'm not going to go all doom and gloom on it just yet, people can get by, but they are legitimate concerns to think about.

[GDRRiley]

7 minutes ago, AshleyAshes said:

Furthermore for those of you worried that an absence of GPS poses a thread to civil aviation, you're being silly.  GPS being accessible for civilian use didn't even happen until the aftermath of the Soviet Union shooting down the passenger airliner Korean Air Flight 007 in 1983.

equipment.

 

In short, airliners have been traversing the planet long before GPS was available.  There are many, many, many ways an aircraft can navigate safely, GPS is just an extra.  Automatic direction finders, inertial navigation, compasses, RADAR navigation, and VHF omnidirectional range are all systems that can be used.  Not to mention that since this is all over the United States, there's ground based RADAR that is tracking that's watching all aircraft.

GPS wasn't created that long before that flight happened. but yeah civil aircraft air fine

[2FA]

25 minutes ago, Ryujin2003 said:

How exactly would you had GPS? The GPS has hardcoded timing instants, it broadcasts time. The devices can be jammed by overpowering their ability to receive a clean signal, but for that amount of geographical realestate, it would produce a lot of heat and take a lot of power. I could very well be missing something. So how would you jam that much space?

The same way you jam any microwave signal, and it doesn't have to be white noise. It can be anything as long as it either reduces SNR or forces the receivers to lock onto a transmitter with an unmodulated signal. If the signal does a handshake at first connection (GPS does not as you don't need to transmit anything to the network), you can even force an infinite handshake loop.

[Tech_Dreamer]

well, prepping is good.

[Taf the Ghost]

6 hours ago, Beowulff83 said:

I wouldn't be so sure.  This exercise is probably to test both our capabilities without the aid of gps and also to test our gps jamming ability.

It's going to be a combination of a lot of things. The expanding range as you go up in FL points to some ground-based jamming equipment will be part of the testing. It should be noted that they've been able to jam GPS for a while, so this isn't new. But it's a combination of testing in a "real" environment. As someone pointed to up-thread, cars that lose GPS will try to recalculate what they're doing. Funny thing is the Military Tech will probably try to as well, and I don't believe that's ever been tested under realistic conditions before. NM must be flooded with MilTech companies trying to run as many tests as they can get done in the time period.

[vanished]

Wow, that's not incredibly suspicious and overkill for the official reason they gave or anything /s

[keskparane]

15 hours ago, Ryujin2003 said:

How exactly would you had GPS? The GPS has hardcoded timing instants, it broadcasts time. The devices can be jammed by overpowering their ability to receive a clean signal, but for that amount of geographical realestate, it would produce a lot of heat and take a lot of power. I could very well be missing something. So how would you jam that much space?

........

I feel like it would be easier to turn off the GPS than to modify every vehicle for an exercise. Plus readier to turn back on if something happens.. like a plane crashes due to pilot error it something.

I would imagine you wouldn't need to jam it as such. All you need to do is add in a whole lot of extra conflicting transmissions to confuse it. AFAIK a GPS transmission is just a location and a time. When the receiver gets the message it calculates the distance from the location. Then by triangulation with other transmissions you can calculate your location. By adding in extra messages with different times you confuse the GPS.

 

Turning off the GPS wouldn't simulate the confusion and conflicts. It would either be on or off which is easy to tell. When you add just a little confusion you could reduce automated accuracy beyond that of human error. So then a decision needs to be made at some point when to stop using the automated system because it is too unreliable. Who knows? I'm just coming up with hypothetical scenarios.

[Stefan1024]

15 hours ago, Ryujin2003 said:

How exactly would you had GPS? The GPS has hardcoded timing instants, it broadcasts time. The devices can be jammed by overpowering their ability to receive a clean signal, but for that amount of geographical realestate, it would produce a lot of heat and take a lot of power. I could very well be missing something. So how would you jam that much space?

I totally can. I generally believe the big Nations bashibg another is for show. But I don't think anything will happen. We're too content with our small proxy wars to risk anything larger. Russia doesn't have an economy to sustain anything. China couldn't feed itself, North Korea doesn't have an electrical device aside from Kim's iPhone. Iran isn't there yet. The countries in the middle East and eaten Asia would rather nukes Israel. And I don't worry about the US and the European having any issues in the mean time.

 

Proxy wars. Drugs, weapons snuggling, insurgencies, Revolutions... That's how we fight reacted.

 

It is horrible. It is violent. And destructive. But I sorry don't think that everything the government states is a lie. Sometimes you gotta train.

 

I imagine cellular would work. They get their location from triangulation from towers and wifi for better accuracy. I think it would be more basic tech, like Garmin and military GPS devices that are not on the cellular network.

 

I feel like it would be easier to turn off the GPS than to modify every vehicle for an exercise. Plus readier to turn back on if something happens.. like a plane crashes due to pilot error it something.

Actually, GPS is a very weak signal by the time it reaches the earth. In fact, the spectrum desity is even lower than the thermal noise floor. Without the compuational signal gain given by the spread spetrum signal, it's impossible to decode.

 

With a very basic jamer of 1 watt you can easely build at home can wipe out any GPS signal within 1 kilometer. A few kilowatt on a strategic location should be enougth to do the job.

 

On topic: It's insane they are allowed to disturb so many people, especially abroad. Just imagine the outcry when Mexico would do a similar thing close to the US border....

[Ryujin2003]

36 minutes ago, keskparane said:

I would imagine you wouldn't need to jam it as such. All you need to do is add in a whole lot of extra conflicting transmissions to confuse it. AFAIK a GPS transmission is just a location and a time. When the receiver gets the message it calculates the distance from the location. Then by triangulation with other transmissions you can calculate your location. By adding in extra messages with different times you confuse the GPS.

In this case, your essentially jamming the receiving devices with the noise, not the GPS itself. Sending this stuff to the GPS won't effect it's ability to transmit.

[keskparane]

13 minutes ago, Ryujin2003 said:

In this case, your essentially jamming the receiving devices with the noise, not the GPS itself. Sending this stuff to the GPS won't effect it's ability to transmit.

Exactly. Why would you jam the GPS transmitter?

[Ryujin2003]

16 minutes ago, keskparane said:

Exactly. Why would you jam the GPS transmitter?

Just clarifying before I agree with your statement. Technicalities I guess. Sometimes I get in trouble by not clarifying assumptions, like assuming you meant the GPS device not the satellite itself. That'd be absurd.

[keskparane]

15 minutes ago, Ryujin2003 said:

Just clarifying before I agree with your statement. Technicalities I guess. Sometimes I get in trouble by not clarifying assumptions, like assuming you meant the GPS device not the satellite itself. That'd be absurd.

I mean creating and transmitting extra signals, that emulate the ones sent by the satellites, but with different data, so that the receivers the military are using get conflicting data, which in turn makes it impossible to triangulate a position.

 

Or you could possibly send loud signals that drown out the other thereby hijacking the signal. Then you could create false positioning.

[asus killer]

This makes no sense at all, considering that anyone can disable a gps by turning it off why go to all the trouble of blocking the signal over such a large area that also includes a foreign country, disables emergency services use of a fundamental tool, etc...