AMD Ryzen 2600 Eng Sample leak

[Inversion]

2 hours ago, JediFragger said:

My only question is, if Ryzen is such a great seller then why are they having to have a 'sale' on them? Pricing has been rather 'flexible' for the last 6 months or so though from what I've seen here in the UK.

Because new stuff is coming and we've also had Black Friday, Boxing Day and January sales which often see big reductions on popular products because it often leads to higher volumes of sales on non discounted products such as MOBOs, RAM, Coolers. For big retailers online or otherwise it's not just about the one product, it's about how much they can sell to a customer to go with a product. Think about going to a shop like PC World for a laptop. While it may be reduced, Office isn't, neither is antivirus, or the cloud storage, the mouse, laptop bag, usb sticks. Everything they sell on top of the laptop is why the laptop is on sale in the first place. Most people will buy all the accessories they need at once and it's the same with people buying CPUs on Black Friday. Amazon is hoping that people will buy the rest too. 

[Jito463]

2 hours ago, JediFragger said:

My only question is, if Ryzen is such a great seller then why are they having to have a 'sale' on them? Pricing has been rather 'flexible' for the last 6 months or so though from what I've seen here in the UK.

1 hour ago, MaktimS said:

Because new CPUs are coming. Current Ryzen has excellent selling numbers. For example in Germany, where AMD is selling more CPUs than Intel

This, and also because many people still have this misguided preconception that Intel = fast and AMD = slow.  And that's not even addressing that the general public hear AMD and go 'Who?'.

[JediFragger]

1 hour ago, Inversion said:

Because new stuff is coming

Yes, but this has been happening for months and months and the new stuff isn't due until at least Q2. Just seems a little strange that rather new cpu's are being discounted heavily, which gives the impression of desperation. We hardly ever see this from In*el. Is it a bit of over-production do you think? A little bit of over-confidence on AMD's part? I understand that traction takes some time, especially after being so out of the game/competitive for a while...

[cj09beira]

13 minutes ago, JediFragger said:

Yes, but this has been happening for months and months and the new stuff isn't due until at least Q2. Just seems a little strange that rather new cpu's are being discounted heavily, which gives the impression of desperation. We hardly ever see this from In*el. Is it a bit of over-production do you think? A little bit of over-confidence on AMD's part? I understand that traction takes some time, especially after being so out of the game/competitive for a while...

amd actually already responded to this, and said that they simply saw that at this prices the added volume of chips more than compensated for the reduced prices, so they decided to keep them there

[GOTSpectrum]

1 hour ago, JediFragger said:

Yes, but this has been happening for months and months and the new stuff isn't due until at least Q2. Just seems a little strange that rather new cpu's are being discounted heavily, which gives the impression of desperation. We hardly ever see this from In*el. Is it a bit of over-production do you think? A little bit of over-confidence on AMD's part? I understand that traction takes some time, especially after being so out of the game/competitive for a while...

 

1 hour ago, cj09beira said:

amd actually already responded to this, and said that they simply saw that at this prices the added volume of chips more than compensated for the reduced prices, so they decided to keep them there

Not only that, but AMD is going for increased mindshare atm. That means, the more hands that have RYZEN the  more mouths they have talking about the product. If your computer savvy friend has a ryzen chip and you have limited idea about PCs but want a high end gaming machine, you'll most likely just copy them. 

[JediFragger]

Ok, thanks for informing me

[Taf the Ghost]

10 hours ago, JediFragger said:

Yes, but this has been happening for months and months and the new stuff isn't due until at least Q2. Just seems a little strange that rather new cpu's are being discounted heavily, which gives the impression of desperation. We hardly ever see this from In*el. Is it a bit of over-production do you think? A little bit of over-confidence on AMD's part? I understand that traction takes some time, especially after being so out of the game/competitive for a while...

 

8 hours ago, Ben Quigley said:

 

Not only that, but AMD is going for increased mindshare atm. That means, the more hands that have RYZEN the  more mouths they have talking about the product. If your computer savvy friend has a ryzen chip and you have limited idea about PCs but want a high end gaming machine, you'll most likely just copy them. 

You're looking at relativistic market positions. Intel is the dominant player, while AMD is the smaller one. Intel loses money by cutting prices, while AMD increases volume when it does. This is different from the GPU market where AMD & Nvidia pricing used to be tied closely to each other. The dynamics of the markets are different.

 

Also, specifically for Ryzen parts, AMD left some massive margins for the retailers. Actual production cost difference between a Ryzen 1200 and a Ryzen 1800X is... $0 USD. Those early days Ryzen 7s were massive profit for both Retailers & AMD, while at the same time Intel couldn't actually cut prices in the Mainstream space. It effected X299 pricing massively, however, and would force an early launch of Coffee Lake.

 

AMD needed both Profit and Market Share, then breaking back into a lot of the OEM space. They priced their products fairly well for it, then when the market started to settle into what was the best buying options, AMD adjusted their pricing. But most of those big sales were with Ryzen 7s by the Retailer, which pointed far more to the margins the retailer could drop off the part and still profit.

[Phate.exe]

4 hours ago, Taf the Ghost said:

Also, specifically for Ryzen parts, AMD left some massive margins for the retailers. Actual production cost difference between a Ryzen 1200 and a Ryzen 1800X is... $0 USD. Those early days Ryzen 7s were massive profit for both Retailers & AMD, while at the same time Intel couldn't actually cut prices in the Mainstream space.

It's like the Phenom II era in that way, although at least this time they locked you out of unlocking the CPU's.  They were making the full chips (quad cores deneb's and late 6 core thuban's) and disabling "nonfunctional" portions of the CPU to sell them as lower end.  I had a 1090T six core, so I didn't get to play around with unlocking cores until last year when I scooped a 960T black for the machine I put together for a friend, and we ended up with a 3GHz 6 core with overclocking headroom for under $50 shipped.  feelsgoodman.jpg

 

Make the "big" 2 CCX die, and really good ones become 1800X's, fully functional cores that don't like high clockspeeds as much become 1700's.  1 or 2 dead cores become 1600's and 1600X's depending on how well they clock.  Etc etc etc.  This is why the odd 8 core Ryzen 5 and 8 core non-SMT Ryzen 3 showing up doesn't surprise me at all.

 

Arguably the lower-end processors actually cost a bit more than the 1700/1800, since they have to disable portions of the chip after testing, rather than just sending them to packaging.  It's not a lot more, but it is extra production time.

 

 

I'm pretty happy with my 1600X right now.  I'm still interested in what changes we'll see in the refreshed CPU's, in particular where the new clockspeed ceiling will be.

[Taf the Ghost]

28 minutes ago, Phate.exe said:

It's like the Phenom II era in that way, although at least this time they locked you out of unlocking the CPU's.  They were making the full chips (quad cores deneb's and late 6 core thuban's) and disabling "nonfunctional" portions of the CPU to sell them as lower end.  I had a 1090T six core, so I didn't get to play around with unlocking cores until last year when I scooped a 960T black for the machine I put together for a friend, and we ended up with a 3GHz 6 core with overclocking headroom for under $50 shipped.  feelsgoodman.jpg

 

Make the "big" 2 CCX die, and really good ones become 1800X's, fully functional cores that don't like high clockspeeds as much become 1700's.  1 or 2 dead cores become 1600's and 1600X's depending on how well they clock.  Etc etc etc.  This is why the odd 8 core Ryzen 5 and 8 core non-SMT Ryzen 3 showing up doesn't surprise me at all.

 

Arguably the lower-end processors actually cost a bit more than the 1700/1800, since they have to disable portions of the chip after testing, rather than just sending them to packaging.  It's not a lot more, but it is extra production time.

 

 

I'm pretty happy with my 1600X right now.  I'm still interested in what changes we'll see in the refreshed CPU's, in particular where the new clockspeed ceiling will be.

Depending on workflow and the post-testing process, there's no easy answer if one is cheaper to produce, on net, than the others. Which is why I didn't get into it.  If there is a difference, it's quite minimal to functionally impossible to calculate. 

 

As for Ryzen 2000 series, we'll know a good chunk more very soon, as those G-series parts have most of the design tweaks. OC overhead should be higher on the 12nm process, though, just by the nature of what they've done different. The G-series parts are on the same process as Ryzen/TR/Epyc, so it should max out at 4.3 Ghz on the absolute best chips.

[cj09beira]

3 hours ago, Taf the Ghost said:

Depending on workflow and the post-testing process, there's no easy answer if one is cheaper to produce, on net, than the others. Which is why I didn't get into it.  If there is a difference, it's quite minimal to functionally impossible to calculate. 

 

As for Ryzen 2000 series, we'll know a good chunk more very soon, as those G-series parts have most of the design tweaks. OC overhead should be higher on the 12nm process, though, just by the nature of what they've done different. The G-series parts are on the same process as Ryzen/TR/Epyc, so it should max out at 4.3 Ghz on the absolute best chips.

acording to this amd now fully supports 2933 as a stock memory clock for the new 2000g series which should mean some good memory overclocking improvements

https://overclock3d.net/news/cpu_mainboard/amd_reveals_the_specifications_of_their_upcoming_ryzen_vega_2000g_series_cpus/1

[qepsilonp]

23 hours ago, Inversion said:

My main issue with what you're saying here is that Ryzen was never gonna be a worthwhile upgrade. If you were coming from an older system (such as myself from an Athlon X4 860K) it was a huge upgrade. And if you were coming from an i3 or i5 system and were wanting to content create on a budget then again Ryzen was a godsend. 6C/12T for about £180 normally or £140 on sale was a bargain and still is. I think you need to get that AMD really hit it out of the park on Ryzen from both a value point of view and when compared to their older hardware. It was a massive leap forwards and let's be real. If Ryzen and Threadripper hadn't been as big a game changer, Intel would most likely only now be releasing X299 about now and Coffee Lake would still be a few months away. It was the kick in the pants the industry needed and I can't wait to see exactly what AMD do next.

Dude I said upgrading from Ryzen to Ryzen 2 was never going to make sense...

[Inversion]

1 hour ago, qepsilonp said:

Dude I said upgrading from Ryzen to Ryzen 2 was never going to make sense...

That wasn't particularly clear. Ryzen ro Ryzen 2 would only be worthwhile if you bought like a 1200 or 1300X this time and stepped up to a new Ryzen 5 or Ryzen 7

[The Benjamins]

2 hours ago, qepsilonp said:

Dude I said upgrading from Ryzen to Ryzen 2 was never going to make sense...

well it depends, if you bought a 1800x then upgrading is going to get you much but if you got a R3 and upgraded to a R5 or better or R5 to a R7 then it could be a good deal. mostly due to not needing to replace anything else. in contrast a 7600k to a 8700k.

[cj09beira]

4 hours ago, cj09beira said:

acording to this amd now fully supports 2933 as a stock memory clock for the new 2000g series which should mean some good memory overclocking improvements

https://overclock3d.net/news/cpu_mainboard/amd_reveals_the_specifications_of_their_upcoming_ryzen_vega_2000g_series_cpus/1

which hopefully will mean my b-die team group kit can spread its legs  

[Taf the Ghost]

3 hours ago, cj09beira said:

acording to this amd now fully supports 2933 as a stock memory clock for the new 2000g series which should mean some good memory overclocking improvements

https://overclock3d.net/news/cpu_mainboard/amd_reveals_the_specifications_of_their_upcoming_ryzen_vega_2000g_series_cpus/1

I think it means they got Hynix chips to play nice, haha. Though it probably points more to fixes with the new chipsets and, probably, shifting the interaction to be a bit more like Intel's. (Which is normally AMD's way of improving, as everyone tweaks towards Intel rather than the standard.)

[Bruno_A]

On 20 January 2018 at 7:32 PM, Crunchy Dragon said:

I would advise you flash the BIOS so it has support for the new CPUs, then you can just upgrade to Ryzen+ whenever you want after they hit the market.

Wouldn't be worth it as they will be likely more expensive than the current gen and on top of that, I'd have to pay for shipping to return my R5 1600, and that's if it was still on the 30-day return policy, if it's not, I'd have to sell mu CPU at a cheaper price. You get the point, wouldn't really be worth it.

[Bruno_A]

On 20 January 2018 at 9:39 PM, qepsilonp said:

Erm I think your talking about Zen 2, Zen 2 will be Ryzen 3 as Zen+ is Ryzen 2 and it will almost certainly come in 2019, although my guess would be at easilest it will come is May 2019, as on AMD charts right now they have Zen 3 coming in 2020, the chart isn't numbered but it ends in 2020 and it has Ryzen 3 on it, also given comments by AMD saying that they will have new CPU's on AM4 until 2020 to 2021 late 2020 for Zen 3 makes sense, this was back when Ryzen had just launched though so there was less certainty than there is now.

 

Although I believe Zen 3 will not be compatible with AM4 because I would think they would want to jump on PCIe 5 and DDR5 and yes I am actually talking about PCIe 5, PCIe 4 was orignally planned for 2013 I think, but they had a load of toubles, but according to PCI SIG, PCIe 5 is going to be finalised in 2019, given usual development times devises and motherboards should be available about a year after that.

 

So if Zen launches during 2020 or after it AMD will want to implement PCIe 5 and will simply skip PCIe 4, also DDR5 is another thing they will want to implement which will by available by then, which would make the new CPU's incompatible with the old boards, unless AMD wanted to waste quite a bit of die space and a lot of development time having the CPU be compatible with PCIe 3, PCIe 5, DDR4 and DDR5, then make a new series of boards that support the PCIe 5 and DDR5 which AMD is already behind Intel on there IMC unnecessarily increasing complexity would be dumb as you would likely also take a performance hit.

But imagine AMD gave you 20 PCIe gen 5 lanes right to the CPU... that would be nuts you could run 10 Titan Xp's off that much bandwidth as 2 PCIe gen 5 lanes would equate to roughly 8x PCIe gen 3 lanes, and there is not a measurable difference for running in 8x vs 16x with the Titan Xp.

Like 10 virtual machines all with there own Titan Xp assuming AMD move to 12 cores you could only have 1 core each, but still, that is a stupid amount of bandwidth, or ThreadRipper with 64 PCIe Gen 5 lanes thats 32 Titan Xp's or 16 Titan V's, Epyc 64 Titan Xp's or 32 Titan V's.

Thats Nuts, I think even data centre / deep learning guys would even be like, "THAT'S TOO MUCH BANDWIDTH, WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO WITH THIS?"

That's right, I totally messed up the model names. As for the next generations, we'll see, even if AMD still supports AM4 at that time, who knows what intel has to offer? I guess we'll have to wait.