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[descendency]

6 hours ago, mr moose said:

if a car can go 300K on a charge and there are charge stations every on average every 25K,  then range isn't an issue, only time to stop and charge.

Honestly, this is a bigger issue to me than the range. Most people [in the US, can't speak for outside] live close enough (at least on the east coast and California - ie 'most people') to the charger network to use a Tesla. The others own a place they could add a charger at home for very little. And the last <10% are SOL for now. That said, the time to charge is not insignificant compared to gasoline powered cars. Actual charge time is still 10x+ what a gas car is. For those of us (probably the vast majority of people) that don't have access to charging places at work or home, the charge time is a significant 'cost'. 

 

That said, I still want one (a less ugly Tesla truck or a Model X/Y), but not quite right now.  

[Bombastinator]

3 minutes ago, descendency said:

Honestly, this is a bigger issue to me than the range. Most people [in the US, can't speak for outside] live close enough (at least on the east coast and California - ie 'most people') to the charger network to use a Tesla. The others own a place they could add a charger at home for very little. And the last <10% are SOL for now. That said, the time to charge is not insignificant compared to gasoline powered cars. Actual charge time is still 10x+ what a gas car is. For those of us (probably the vast majority of people) that don't have access to charging places at work or home, the charge time is a significant 'cost'. 

 

That said, I still want one (a less ugly Tesla truck or a Model X/Y), but not quite right now.  

That’s fast charging.  You can plug the thing into a 110v outlet and it will charge overnight.  Not fast, but it works.  A lot of apartment living people will have an issue though.

 

i ran a 100amp service to my garage and then found out even the EV people didn’t think fast chargers were worth it.  They told me to just put in a 220v outlet and call it a day.

[Taf the Ghost]

1 minute ago, amdorintel said:

yeah thats why it wont last, until a batteries can last much longer

but by that time something new will come along.

Because people don't know a lot of history, the first Pure EVs have been around since 1900. While Lithium-based batteries are much better than lead-acid for this stuff, any batteries we have or even are on the future are still extremely fragile energy storage approaches.

 

However, that isn't what I mean. "Cost Structures" are what things cost to make, maintain and generally use. In an electrical engineering approach to cars, you end up with a situation where the motor/batteries work right until the moment they don't. They fade a bit, slowly, but it's not like replacing some gaskets or an exhaust manifold. It works until it catastrophically fails. What that means the long-term used market is very different. You can't buy an EV for 3k, put 2k into it and have something that's going to work for 5-6 years with basic maintenance. You're simply gambling that your batteries or one of the computers won't go "pop" early in your purchase life of the car.

 

You won't see "EV Rust Buckets" types of cars, resulting in most EVs being something like 60000USD iPhones. That's the cost structure difference. It's not like IC-powered vehicles aren't 100+ year old tech with trillions in development to squeeze every ounce of utility out of them. EVs aren't structurally different enough from IC cars to catapult the utility aspects.

 

This is pretty much the exact same argument we've had for the last 20 years over Solar. I'm quite happy that we finally have won that one. Solar has specific, very useful, applications, but it's worthless for Base Load power. That was always true. Use it in the combined-load/generation situations here it works well. Pure EVs are the same thing. They most definitely have their place (Forklifts & Golf Carts are still the volume EV sales....), but they're not this massive revolution in technology. They're just modern spins on very old technology that still need a lot of work.

[amdorintel]

i will probably end up buying a few ev battery packs for my own projects

[amdorintel]

2 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

 You can plug the thing into a 110v outlet and it will charge overnight.

no it takes much much much longer then that on 110v

 

the 240v has two charge options, normal charging system and a fast charging system, which costs more money.

 

110v charging is a joke

 

 

[Bombastinator]

1 minute ago, amdorintel said:

no it takes much much much longer then that on 110v

 

the 240v has two charge options, normal charging system and a fast charging system, which costs more money.

 

 

I was told 8hrs.  Were they lying?  They said to not even bother with fast charging. 220v 15 amp was more than enough.

[amdorintel]

2 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

since 1900

yeah nyc had electric cabs back then

gas killed electrics

[amdorintel]

1 minute ago, Bombastinator said:

I was told 8hrs.  Were they lying?

well 8 hours would get you like 10km = 6 miles, you would require a few days, if not 5 of charging to fill up.

[Taf the Ghost]

5 minutes ago, descendency said:

Honestly, this is a bigger issue to me than the range. Most people [in the US, can't speak for outside] live close enough (at least on the east coast and California - ie 'most people') to the charger network to use a Tesla. The others own a place they could add a charger at home for very little. And the last <10% are SOL for now. That said, the time to charge is not insignificant compared to gasoline powered cars. Actual charge time is still 10x+ what a gas car is. For those of us (probably the vast majority of people) that don't have access to charging places at work or home, the charge time is a significant 'cost'. 

 

That said, I still want one (a less ugly Tesla truck or a Model X/Y), but not quite right now.  

You have to manage your car like you manage a cellphone. Pretty much everyone alive that has owned a car has never had to manage their car like that, and you can't just buy a battery bank to take with you.

[descendency]

3 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

A lot of apartment living people will have an issue though.

This is the large group of people I am talking about. A lot of people rent (either apartments or houses) and would have to get the owners to approve the installation. In a lot of those cases, they won't approve it. 

[amdorintel]

1 minute ago, Taf the Ghost said:

you can't just buy a battery bank to take with you.

that is one option, a pipe dream, some had. battery exchange

[Bombastinator]

Just now, amdorintel said:

well 8 hours would get you like 10km, you would require a few days, if not 5 of charging to fill up.

So you say they were totally lying.  I don’t think the math comes close to adding up.  You can get nearly that with your engine off running off your car battery starter in a gas car.  

[Taf the Ghost]

Just now, descendency said:

This is the large group of people I am talking about. A lot of people rent (either apartments or houses) and would have to get the owners to approve the installation. In a lot of those cases, they won't approve it. 

Tesla sells to Suburban dwellers with garages that they can park more than one car in, in warmer climates. That's their market. Why Space Ute will probably convert about 60k of those orders into sales. This is the most epic of Shopping Mall runners for this set. 

[amdorintel]

there is a limit to what 110v can handle in terms of output in terms of amp output to get the wh required to fill the battery.

that is why 240v is better, but even having 350v (industrial power) will help stuffing them wh into the battery.

[Bombastinator]

7 minutes ago, amdorintel said:

well 8 hours would get you like 10km, you would require a few days, if not 5 of charging to fill up.

Sounds like both you and the electrician had it wrong

https://www.pluglesspower.com/learn/can-tesla-charge-regular-110v-wall-outlet-technically-yes/

[amdorintel]

2 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Sounds like both you and the electrician had it wrong

https://www.pluglesspower.com/learn/can-tesla-charge-regular-110v-wall-outlet-technically-yes/

Quote

It’s about as practical as refilling a gas car’s tank with an eye dropper.

yup, slow as fuck charging on 110v

 

also

Quote

It will take up to 4 full days to fully recharge an empty Tesla car battery using a regular wall outlet.

 

[Bombastinator]

This is a more useful page.  These guys are trying to sell level 2 chargers btw

 

https://www.pluglesspower.com/learn/tesla-model-s-charging-home-public-autonomously/

[amdorintel]

yup the higher the voltage the more you can pump into the battery

480V looks interesting for consumer use, as apposed to commercial/industrial

[mr moose]

20 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

Because people don't know a lot of history, the first Pure EVs have been around since 1900. While Lithium-based batteries are much better than lead-acid for this stuff, any batteries we have or even are on the future are still extremely fragile energy storage approaches.

 

However, that isn't what I mean. "Cost Structures" are what things cost to make, maintain and generally use. In an electrical engineering approach to cars, you end up with a situation where the motor/batteries work right until the moment they don't. They fade a bit, slowly, but it's not like replacing some gaskets or an exhaust manifold. It works until it catastrophically fails. What that means the long-term used market is very different. You can't buy an EV for 3k, put 2k into it and have something that's going to work for 5-6 years with basic maintenance. You're simply gambling that your batteries or one of the computers won't go "pop" early in your purchase life of the car.

 

You won't see "EV Rust Buckets" types of cars, resulting in most EVs being something like 60000USD iPhones. That's the cost structure difference. It's not like IC-powered vehicles aren't 100+ year old tech with trillions in development to squeeze every ounce of utility out of them. EVs aren't structurally different enough from IC cars to catapult the utility aspects.

 

This is pretty much the exact same argument we've had for the last 20 years over Solar. I'm quite happy that we finally have won that one. Solar has specific, very useful, applications, but it's worthless for Base Load power. That was always true. Use it in the combined-load/generation situations here it works well. Pure EVs are the same thing. They most definitely have their place (Forklifts & Golf Carts are still the volume EV sales....), but they're not this massive revolution in technology. They're just modern spins on very old technology that still need a lot of work.

 

A lot of that is only a problem if the cost of parts (computers, battery banks, etc) don't fall in price or aren't scaling in cost/longevity as ICE parts do.  

 

EDIT: with regard to solar, it works fine with batteries for small consumption use like homes (my FiL is completely off grid with electric hybrid car and small workshop), it doesn't work for base load because industry is the main consumer of power dwarfing the domestic market dramatically.

 

16 minutes ago, descendency said:

This is the large group of people I am talking about. A lot of people rent (either apartments or houses) and would have to get the owners to approve the installation. In a lot of those cases, they won't approve it. 

Electric cars are here to stay and will replace ICE,  the thing we don't know is will they be charged from the mains at home or will an alternative form of power generation be developed.  Either way, when they become the mainstream, house rentals and apartments will have services in place to support it just like rentals all have dishwashers now, when appliances (car chargers being one of them) become so common they will either already be in the house when landlords buy them or they will be installed to maintain the rentability/asking rent. 

[Bombastinator]

16 minutes ago, descendency said:

This is the large group of people I am talking about. A lot of people rent (either apartments or houses) and would have to get the owners to approve the installation. In a lot of those cases, they won't approve it. 

And then you move.  That’s the thing about apartments.  You can do that.  Which is why the apartment owner will likely poop himself when you do.  And why I, as an apartment owner, put a 100amp service in my garage.

 

the only other apartment owner I know really well also did it.  He’s an electrician though and went more hardcore.  He put in the level 3 stuff.

[atxcyclist]

1 minute ago, amdorintel said:

yup the higher the voltage the more you can pump into the battery

480V looks interesting for consumer use, as apposed to commercial/industrial

It would work a lot better, but very few residential areas have that infrastructure. I work in the architectural design field, it's somewhat rare for commercial buildings to have 480v availible.

[Bombastinator]

Just now, atxcyclist said:

It would work a lot better, but very few residential areas have that infrastructure. I work in the architectural design field, it's somewhat rare for commercial buildings to have 480v availible.

You mean electricity?  There’s 220 going basically everywhere in the US.  There are places that don’t have it of course.  Not many, but they exist.

[amdorintel]

Just now, atxcyclist said:

It would work a lot better, but very few residential areas have that infrastructure. I work in the architectural design field, it's somewhat rare for commercial buildings to have 480v availible.

 

i am not sure what country you are from, but 3 phase power is used.

 

https://www.worldstandards.eu/three-phase-electric-power/

[amdorintel]

1 minute ago, Bombastinator said:

There’s 220 going basically everywhere in the US.

110v is 220, its split off at your own panel.

[Bombastinator]

Just now, amdorintel said:

 

i am not sure what country you are from, but 3 phase power is used.

 

https://www.worldstandards.eu/three-phase-electric-power/

3 phase is used but it’s not available generally except in industrial areas.  I can only get 2 phase to my house.  It’s an old area.  One of the first places to get electricity in my state. The base blocks said “bell Edison” on them when I had them replaced. Building is 1932.  Still got 2 phase though.