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Skanky Sylveon

Crytek reveals real time raytracing that works with both Nvidia and AMD hardware.

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3 hours ago, laminutederire said:

They certainly have not implemented ray marching. First of all because it's still a rather expensive technique in the path tracing world, but mostly and secondly because Ray marching is a technique only made to render volumetric effects. It is called marching, because they sample events on the ray moving through the fog/whatever other volumetric data, so it is like you do marching along said Ray, hence the name.

You can use ray marching as an alternative to ray tracing, especially when computing the intersection of a ray with an object is expensive. That's not usually the case for games, where the shapes are made up of triangles, but when using mathematical models of shapes it can make sense. When optimised with signed distance fields, you also get some other benefits, like cheap ambient occlusion and fuzzy shadows, which would require lots of rays when ray tracing.

I don't think ray marching was used here, but it's not only useful for volumetric effects.


I don't work for Floatplane Media, so any Floatplane comments that I make are my own and may be incorrect or in conflict with the official view.

 

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5 hours ago, laminutederire said:

They certainly have not implemented ray marching. First of all because it's still a rather expensive technique in the path tracing world, but mostly and secondly because Ray marching is a technique only made to render volumetric effects. It is called marching, because they sample events on the ray moving through the fog/whatever other volumetric data, so it is like you do marching along said Ray, hence the name.

For one thing, the demo wasn't trying to do path tracing (path tracing is also its own thing from ray marching).

 

For another, I don't think it's as expensive to do as you think, since it's possible to do it on WebGL with good performance: https://github.com/nopjia/WebGL-RayMarch and https://reindernijhoff.net/2015/03/tokyo-breakdown-of-a-webgl-fragment-shader/. And it was used in Killzone: Shadow Fall for the reflection system.

 

You're free to tell me these aren't ray marching techniques, but you'd have to back it up with something, because everything else I've been scouring the web on says you can do reflections with ray marching.

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Like I've said, I don't care if they fake the shit out of it, if it looks convincing enough in the end that even advanced users can't really differenciate it from "real" thing, then who cares? You don't need dedicated hardware and runs stupid fast apparently. That's enough for me. There will be time for "real" thing in the future. Hell, for most casual players, you'd have to specifically point out the flaws of screen space reflections and how they are off compared to actual objects in the world at certain angles. When you need to do that, you know it's convincing enough as it is.

 

Overwatch for example, despite age and cartoonish graphics, it does shadowing, lighting and even SSAO mindblowingly well. It's almost a shame it's such a fast paced game because you don't have any time to appreciate the visuals enough. But the engine is just amazing visually and on audio front which is again a shame because you don't have time to appreciate amazing environmental audio effects. Everything just looks so amazing, you only spot reflections are off because they are not aligning with actual world perfectly at all angles. Something which isn't the case with CryEngine.

 

Who wouldn't buy a Crysis bundle (Crysis 1, 2 and 3) again if they redesigned them with this new engine utilizing this real time ray tracing technique. I know my curious mind would want that. Not only to re-experience them because they were damn cool games, but also to experience them in different light. Literally. Games often feel entirely differently with all new engines even if they hardly change anything else.

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finally got to looking at the trailer video. I kinda see where crytek is coming from, but it's at most raytraced reflections and... nothing else of envy ._.

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25 minutes ago, VegetableStu said:

finally got to looking at the trailer video. I kinda see where crytek is coming from, but it's at most raytraced reflections and... nothing else of envy ._.

I don't know, shadows look damn convincing as well. Hard to say about global illumination as light isn't mixing enough from both sides of streets to tell if GI is also working properly.

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11 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Hard to say about global illumination as light isn't mixing enough from both sides of streets to tell if GI is also working properly.

the police lights from the drone isn't diffusing on the surface it's projecting on (it's showing on the surface, but not actually "spreading" out locally)

and the entire thing... the caustics looks pretty uncanny somehow (reminds me of a lot of existing games to be honest ._.)

i dunno, maybe the point was to show the reflections and then expect the devs to add some GI shader later

 

could be wrong on my part, but kinda wish they had some A/B instead of all the moving

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13 hours ago, CarlBar said:

 

That dosen't answer my question. Source please.

The specs for GDDR5. It’s the same for RAM. It will read 1066mhz in a CPU-Z but it’s effective speed is 2133mhz


ƆԀ S₱▓Ɇ▓cs: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D🅾🅼🅸🅽🅰🆃🅾r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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10 hours ago, leadeater said:

 

 

 

You would have to use the best GDDR5 possible and the worst GDDR5X to get close, though you kind of have to consider both can be memory over clocked so isn't it basically moot? The GPU only needs as much bandwidth as it needs, more won't do anything so if cheaper high end GDDR5 can do it then why not. You could even go for a wider bus using more memory chips and surpass a narrower GDDR5X implementation even with better clocked chips, it's all about balance.

 

No matter how you cut it it's a losing battle for GDDR5 bandwidth wise, easily:

GDDR5X-clock-rates-and-bandwidth-635x198

https://wccftech.com/jedec-publishes-gddr5x-specification-double-bandwidth/

What is the speed read in overclockijg utilities then. As it reads something like 5600mhz and companies advertise 11.2Gbs versions of GPUs


ƆԀ S₱▓Ɇ▓cs: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D🅾🅼🅸🅽🅰🆃🅾r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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10 hours ago, leadeater said:

You would have to use the best GDDR5 possible and the worst GDDR5X to get close,

Yes, exactly that was what I was thinking about.

Though should have called it "8gbps", wich due to Quad Data Rate equals 2GHz.

(the Radeon 7970Hz Edition for example had 1,5GHz or 6gbps memory).

 

GDDR5X is somewhere closer to GDDR6 and IIRC works with Octa Data Rate, If I'm not mistaken, though not sure as I haven't invested much time about that...


"Hell is full of good meanings, but Heaven is full of good works"

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2 hours ago, BuckGup said:

The specs for GDDR5. It’s the same for RAM. It will read 1066mhz in a CPU-Z but it’s effective speed is 2133mhz

 

The point is GDDR5x is quad data rate, that means you quadruple the speed instead of double it like with GDDR5. GDDR6 is 8x i think.

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17 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

 

The point is GDDR5x is quad data rate, that means you quadruple the speed instead of double it like with GDDR5. GDDR6 is 8x i think.

Okay so GDDR5 is specced at around 8Gb/s and GDDR5X is 11-14Gb/s. But then what's the memory speed have to do with anything? Also what's the memory bus clock have to do with anything? My 980ti had a bus clock speed of around 2100Mhz and my 1080 is 1440Mhz. Because if you multiply 2100 by 4 you get 8.4Ghz and 1440 by 8 you get 11.5Ghz which I guess would be in spec with the memory than.But also the 980ti was 384bit bus and the 1080 is 256bit bus. So it's faster but not by that much.


ƆԀ S₱▓Ɇ▓cs: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D🅾🅼🅸🅽🅰🆃🅾r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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4 hours ago, RejZoR said:

Like I've said, I don't care if they fake the shit out of it, if it looks convincing enough in the end that even advanced users can't really differenciate it from "real" thing, then who cares? You don't need dedicated hardware and runs stupid fast apparently. That's enough for me. There will be time for "real" thing in the future. Hell, for most casual players, you'd have to specifically point out the flaws of screen space reflections and how they are off compared to actual objects in the world at certain angles. When you need to do that, you know it's convincing enough as it is.

 

Overwatch for example, despite age and cartoonish graphics, it does shadowing, lighting and even SSAO mindblowingly well. It's almost a shame it's such a fast paced game because you don't have any time to appreciate the visuals enough. But the engine is just amazing visually and on audio front which is again a shame because you don't have time to appreciate amazing environmental audio effects. Everything just looks so amazing, you only spot reflections are off because they are not aligning with actual world perfectly at all angles. Something which isn't the case with CryEngine.

 

Who wouldn't buy a Crysis bundle (Crysis 1, 2 and 3) again if they redesigned them with this new engine utilizing this real time ray tracing technique. I know my curious mind would want that. Not only to re-experience them because they were damn cool games, but also to experience them in different light. Literally. Games often feel entirely differently with all new engines even if they hardly change anything else.

Yeah, I think RTX is mainly about having a "do it all" button for developers. No coding required, the raycaster does it all, apart from manually tagging textures/materials as "raytrace this" to note it being water or not water, metal or rock etc. Where as the current "faking" that looks 99% the same, needs a lot of special tweaks, noting where/when/how to do each effect. See GamersNexus example. They got 99% of the effects running in Unreal (IIRC) on current tech, but it needed more setting up than just saying "raytrace all the things".

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5 hours ago, RejZoR said:

I don't know, shadows look damn convincing as well. Hard to say about global illumination as light isn't mixing enough from both sides of streets to tell if GI is also working properly.

We've gotten to a point where real-time rendering has achieved damn-near the quality of CGI rendering even from a few years ago as long as you don't scrutinize too hard. And most people won't scrutinize too hard. While I understand your sentiment about being close enough is good enough, there's also the other side of the fence who doesn't want to stop there. Especially when people on the development team don't want to stop at "good enough." That's how Crysis was born. The techniques they used were practically brute force or with the slider all the way to the right because they didn't want to settle for "good enough" and nobody came up with anything better at the time.

 

1 hour ago, TechyBen said:

Yeah, I think RTX is mainly about having a "do it all" button for developers. No coding required, the raycaster does it all, apart from manually tagging textures/materials as "raytrace this" to note it being water or not water, metal or rock etc. Where as the current "faking" that looks 99% the same, needs a lot of special tweaks, noting where/when/how to do each effect. See GamersNexus example. They got 99% of the effects running in Unreal (IIRC) on current tech, but it needed more setting up than just saying "raytrace all the things".

This is one of the major advantages I've heard about ray tracing in general. The code is incredibly simple. It's just the computation (which appears to be more about traversing large datasets) that kills it.

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2 hours ago, BuckGup said:

Okay so GDDR5 is specced at around 8Gb/s and GDDR5X is 11-14Gb/s. But then what's the memory speed have to do with anything? Also what's the memory bus clock have to do with anything? My 980ti had a bus clock speed of around 2100Mhz and my 1080 is 1440Mhz. Because if you multiply 2100 by 4 you get 8.4Ghz and 1440 by 8 you get 11.5Ghz which I guess would be in spec with the memory than.But also the 980ti was 384bit bus and the 1080 is 256bit bus. So it's faster but not by that much.

 

 

What do you mean what does memory speed have to do with anything? I'm kinda confused at this point. Your whole point initially was to claim that you could overclock GDDR5 to match GDDR5x in transfer speeds. I raised concerns over that as i remembered 5x being quite a bit faster, (thanks to our resident mod for the table), the point about memory speed was to demonstrate that. And it does, pre-OC GDDR5 tops out at 8Gbs, 5x starts at 10GBs. When talking about memory speed you don't look at the base frequency, you look at the final effective frequency. Getting GDDR5 upto an effective 10Ghz frequency is a big ask.

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4 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

 

 

What do you mean what does memory speed have to do with anything? I'm kinda confused at this point. Your whole point initially was to claim that you could overclock GDDR5 to match GDDR5x in transfer speeds. I raised concerns over that as i remembered 5x being quite a bit faster, (thanks to our resident mod for the table), the point about memory speed was to demonstrate that. And it does, pre-OC GDDR5 tops out at 8Gbs, 5x starts at 10GBs. When talking about memory speed you don't look at the base frequency, you look at the final effective frequency. Getting GDDR5 upto an effective 10Ghz frequency is a big ask.

Yeah lol I sorta answered my own question in my post


ƆԀ S₱▓Ɇ▓cs: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D🅾🅼🅸🅽🅰🆃🅾r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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2 hours ago, Mira Yurizaki said:

We've gotten to a point where real-time rendering has achieved damn-near the quality of CGI rendering even from a few years ago as long as you don't scrutinize too hard. And most people won't scrutinize too hard. While I understand your sentiment about being close enough is good enough, there's also the other side of the fence who doesn't want to stop there. Especially when people on the development team don't want to stop at "good enough." That's how Crysis was born. The techniques they used were practically brute force or with the slider all the way to the right because they didn't want to settle for "good enough" and nobody came up with anything better at the time.

 

This is one of the major advantages I've heard about ray tracing in general. The code is incredibly simple. It's just the computation (which appears to be more about traversing large datasets) that kills it.

I don't want to stop there, but frankly, we just aren't there yet no matter how hard NVIDIA wants to convince us all. Paying 1000€ to get "just" playable 60fps in 3 games is not something many gamers will jump on and neither will devs because it's too much work for something those few can enjoy in those few games.

 

With mass adoption of "good enough" ray tracing like CryTek is doing would create mass adoption and convince players to strive for more accurate, better version that NVIDIA is selling. Or they'll be fine with "good enough" which would mostly end up on budget cards and systems and for high end it would be the real deal. That's basically how things have progressed for decades in games. Things that get widely adopted also evolve fast. If you never start properly (NVIDIA) you're just stuck with fancy tech no one is really using on either side.

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5 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

I don't want to stop there, but frankly, we just aren't there yet no matter how hard NVIDIA wants to convince us all. Paying 1000€ to get "just" playable 60fps in 3 games is not something many gamers will jump on and neither will devs because it's too much work for something those few can enjoy in those few games.

 

With mass adoption of "good enough" ray tracing like CryTek is doing would create mass adoption and convince players to strive for more accurate, better version that NVIDIA is selling. Or they'll be fine with "good enough" which would mostly end up on budget cards and systems and for high end it would be the real deal. That's basically how things have progressed for decades in games. Things that get widely adopted also evolve fast. If you never start properly (NVIDIA) you're just stuck with fancy tech no one is really using on either side.

Not only that, but we are still waiting for proper use of Raytracing. Some of the demos were actually nice in real time. I forget the name, but a little robot strategy/puzzle game. The DOF and Bokeh and acoustics and reflections were great... but instead we get fire and some puddles in BFV for a 50% FPS hit. XD

 

(Is called SEED, will probably never get released :( )

dxr-seed-800x450.jpg

 

I remember the old claymation/stopmotion FMV RPG/puzzel games. But we could have those in realtime instead of FMV quicktime events. :)

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15 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

I don't want to stop there, but frankly, we just aren't there yet no matter how hard NVIDIA wants to convince us all. Paying 1000€ to get "just" playable 60fps in 3 games is not something many gamers will jump on and neither will devs because it's too much work for something those few can enjoy in those few games.

The same could be said about many other GPUs that had some shiny new feature in a more or less standardized API at a price tag few were willing to swallow, with those same performance issues. Hardware T&L? Programmable Shaders? Unified Shading? Tessellation? The first generation of hardware that supported the DirectX that required those features didn't perform stellar either on games that used those features.

 

And while I don't program with graphics, seeing how easy it is to implement a ray tracer (https://www.scratchapixel.com/lessons/3d-basic-rendering/introduction-to-ray-tracing/ray-tracing-practical-example) over the steps it takes to get a raster renderer to do the same thing, I don't see how it's "too much work."

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1 minute ago, Mira Yurizaki said:

The same could be said about many other GPUs that had some shiny new feature in a more or less standardized API at a price tag few were willing to swallow, with those same performance issues. Hardware T&L? Programmable Shaders? Unified Shading? Tessellation? The first generation of hardware that supported the DirectX that required those features didn't perform stellar either on games that supported them.

 

And while I don't program with graphics, seeing how easy it is to implement a ray tracer (https://www.scratchapixel.com/lessons/3d-basic-rendering/introduction-to-ray-tracing/ray-tracing-practical-example) over the steps it takes to get a raster renderer to do the same thing, I don't see how it's "too much work."

Too much work redesigning the engine. It's easy when you have the thing done, but advanced engines don't just fall from the sky. They are very expensive to buy or they are very expensive to develop. If it was so simple we'd have everything ray traced in 1 month after RTX release. It has been over half a year and we have 3 games that sort of support it, all done by big studios.

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3 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Too much work redesigning the engine. It's easy when you have the thing done, but advanced engines don't just fall from the sky. They are very expensive to buy or they are very expensive to develop. If it was so simple we'd have everything ray traced in 1 month after RTX release. It has been over half a year and we have 3 games that sort of support it, all done by big studios.

The only major hurdle that would have to be overcome is that you need the game engine to have a DX12 render path. And I'll bite that while ray tracing implementation is theoretically more simpler than raster rendering, it's yet another paradigm shift, so sure, it'll take work to get something out the door if all the developers did was raster rendering. It's the same reason why Vulkan and DX12 aren't as widespread as people want them to be.

 

I would also argue that 4A games is not a big studio. Or one that could have a AAA budget.

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50 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Too much work redesigning the engine. It's easy when you have the thing done, but advanced engines don't just fall from the sky. They are very expensive to buy or they are very expensive to develop. If it was so simple we'd have everything ray traced in 1 month after RTX release. It has been over half a year and we have 3 games that sort of support it, all done by big studios.

 

And as i've pointed out allready thats allready better than DX12 could claim after the same timeframe...

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23 hours ago, CarlBar said:

 

An >2Ghz difference in transfer speed translates to over a 1000mhz base clock rise. I'd be amazed if you could do that on ambient cooling, (it's also an >25% clock speed uptick). Certainly i think someone with a full custom cooling solution (likely chilled water or sub zero), but thats a long way from a consumer releasable card example.

Like I said, not exactly an efficient solution for your average joe. With a water cooled card you could probably do it, but doubtful with air cooling (unless you win the silicon lottery to end all silicon lotteries). However, it is possible.


"There is a fine line between not listening, and not caring. I'd like to think I walk that line every day of my life."

 

 

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On 3/17/2019 at 11:53 AM, Stefan Payne said:

 

In other words: RTX is already dead because the lower end cards don't come with it.

 

 

Writing off rtx because it is propriety is invalid because its just a hw acceleration of dxr. Basically most behind the abstraction interfaces is propriety, thankfully, so we have amd and nvidia competing for the faster hw/driver accelerations for years.

 

Rtx and dxr are not the same thing, rtx may be propriety but dxr interfaces could be implemented by anyone (for devs theres even a sw fallback layer), just like a regular line or tri drawing operation.

 

Now that unity and unreal (large chunck of games) follow, and entry level cards will be able to run, it seems a little less "dead already" doesnt it?

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Posted · Original PosterOP
On 3/17/2019 at 9:25 AM, poochyena said:

I'm kinda worried about ray tracing. All the demos I have seen have made everything look like freshly polished chrome. Its over done/exaggerated. I feel like future games are going to look like this to show off their "new ray tracing technology"

Reminds me of when bloom was excessively added.  The term "brown and bloom" was created for a reason.  I remember when Nintendo decided to add bloom to their Wind Waker HD remake, and it kinda ruined the cel shaded look in some parts. 

 

Although I find the raytracing less annoying then excessive bloom in my opinion. 

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