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dragodin

An open letter to Linus: We at /r/linux_gaming are happy to help

wkdpaul

There are a few new users in this thread, I would advise EVERYONE to review our Community Standards and to follow the rules it outlines.

 

The main things to remember : be respectful, and no trolling accusations.

 

A discussion can show many points of view while being respectful. There's no need to call each other trolls or to be aggressive if someone doesn't share your opinion.

 

And keep in mind that any CS infraction can be removed without warning.

Message added by wkdpaul

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Posted · Original PosterOP

Hi there Linus,
I'm a sub, a linux gamer and I'm from /r/linux_gaming. I really enjoyed your linux videos with Wendell and your first Proton video. I also noticed that there are always heated discussions in the comment section because of things that people said they could have been researched better. I'm talking about, for example, the fact that you picked an older nVidia driver version, or that the video didn't show some workaround for some proton games, or the fact that you suggested to download some stuff from the web instead of using the repo, etc...
I understand that Linux is a very alien world when you first approach it and that passionate Linux users are quick to criticize things that are not correct. So here's my point: I think I can speak for everyone when I say that for your next Proton video "We are happy to help".

 

Are you unsure about some aspects of Proton? Feel free to ask!
Proton workarounds are a pain in the ass? Ask away!
You don't know what's better between developer drivers and regular drivers? Ask us!
Do you want to know our general experience with Proton? Oh boy, we have a lot to talk about.

WTF even is vulkan_icd_loader? Seriously, we are here.

 

I'm not saying that we should review the script, because I think that it would go too far, but we can certainly have a discussion, and certainly we are happy to help.

 

Feel free to visit at /r/linux_gaming

 

Signed,
The average Linux gamer


Original post: https://old.reddit.com/r/linux_gaming/comments/b0kmpg/an_open_letter_to_linus_tech_tips_we_are_happy_to/

EDIT: spear -> speak

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This is really great to see, thank you!

 

I'll be heading over to your subreddit right now ^^


75% of what I say is sarcastic

 

So is the rest probably

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I'll also back this up. I'm a Linux Systems Admin for my job and play games exclusively on Linux. If you guys are ever having trouble or want a second opinion let me know.

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Modified paste of my comment on Reddit to be more forum friendly:

 

I'm going to be that guy that points out the nonsense before this thread inevitable turns into a giant circlejerk:

Quote

I also noticed that there are always heated discussions in the comment section because of things that people said they could have been researched better.

 

bUt LiNuX juSt WORks.

Seriously, the Linux community has been pushing the narrative that everything "just works" for a long time now. Either it does or it doesn't. Stop lying to draw people into Linux and then when people complain about issues say that they didn't do their research.

There is some middle ground where neither Linux nor the user is as fault(firmware bugs) here but the Linux community knowingly lies about absolute problems that aren't.

 

Seriously, I think Linus even perfectly highlighted this when his computer crashes but you're going to just ignore that fact.

 

 

Quote

the fact that you picked an older nVidia driver version

 

Christ, it makes NO difference for games that actually need the extensions or game/engine specific quirks. I did a comparison between the Vulkan beta drivers and the standard ones and there was literally NO DIFFERENCE in Doom, GTA 5, and Skyrim SE. There was a performance jump between 390-400 that I personally observed but that probably had more to do with the removal of legacy code than anything else.

Quote

the fact that you suggested to download some stuff from the web instead of using the repo

 

IIRC it wasn't even possible to find the Steam package via gnome-software in Ubuntu at the time. Regardless, it doesn't matter. Steam updates itself anyway. You rarely, if ever, get updates for it via the package manager.

Quote

I understand that Linux is a very alien world when you first approach it and that passionate Linux users are quick to criticize things that are not correct.

 

Not correct? Nothing was shown that wasn't par for the course. A normal user just installing Ubuntu would have a very similar experience. You just want Linus to jump through hoops to make Linux look better despite, again, the claim that Linux Just Works(TM).

Quote

The Linux Gamer: "dId YoU rUn OuT oF MeMOry?"

Seriously, stop being dishonest.

 

Linus in his Proton video:

Quote

"So you knew this was going to happen you're just messing with me."

 

ouch.

 

Linus's video on Proton/Linux gaming was fair and representative. I'd even argue he went above and beyond what he should have given the Linux community's lies that Linux Just Works(TM).

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Posted (edited)
On 3/13/2019 at 8:58 AM, BlueGoliath said:

IIRC it wasn't even possible to find the Steam package via gnome-software in Ubuntu at the time.

steam has been in the Ubuntu repo's for YEARS. 

 

On 3/13/2019 at 8:58 AM, BlueGoliath said:

Christ, it makes NO difference for games that actually need the extensions or game/engine specific quirks. I did a comparison between the Vulkan beta drivers and the standard ones and there was literally NO DIFFERENCE in Doom, GTA 5, and Skyrim SE. There was a performance jump between 390-400 that I personally observed but that probably had more to do with the removal of legacy code than anything else.

if it makes no difference why are there updates then?

Edited by wkdpaul
cleaned up

DISCLAIMER: ANYTHING I SAY COULD BE WRONG. DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH! 

Have a look at my set up your linux gaming pc from start to finish topic if you want to get started with linux :) 

My laptop: MacBook Pro 15" Late 2011 (dGPU disabled): I7 2675QM | HD3000 | 500GB SSD | 16GB RAM | macOS

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to answer the OP, i too am very experienced with linux. not with gaming necessarily, because i don't play games anymore, but with general linux stuff i'm very knowledgeable. i would like to help out too if possible :) 


DISCLAIMER: ANYTHING I SAY COULD BE WRONG. DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH! 

Have a look at my set up your linux gaming pc from start to finish topic if you want to get started with linux :) 

My laptop: MacBook Pro 15" Late 2011 (dGPU disabled): I7 2675QM | HD3000 | 500GB SSD | 16GB RAM | macOS

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Posted (edited) · Original PosterOP
On 3/13/2019 at 9:30 AM, BlueGoliath said:

not searchable in gnome-software

I installed it from gnome-software

Edited by wkdpaul
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31 minutes ago, BlueGoliath said:

bUt LiNuX juSt WORks.

Seriously, the Linux community has been pushing the narrative that everything "just works" for a long time now. Either it does or it doesn't. Stop lying to draw people into Linux and then when people complain about issues say that they didn't do their research.

There is some middle ground where neither Linux nor the user is as fault(firmware bugs) here but the Linux community knowingly lies about absolute problems that aren't.

The fact that Linux just works is not an understatement, but it does depends on the point of view:

-if you are targeting a daily-driver to open emails and browse the web and such yes.

-If you are targeting server stuff yes.

-If you are targeting gaming....uh...no...it doesn't...it needs some tricks here and there but it has improved A SHITTON over the last months.

 

Gaming could greatly be a lot better if the choice to install proprietary (and recent drivers) were to some extent slightly easy (like being recommended at startup and you click a button and done), DXKV/Lutris coming included as well as all dependencies and such....

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47 minutes ago, BlueGoliath said:

bUt LiNuX juSt WORks.

Seriously, the Linux community has been pushing the narrative that everything "just works" for a long time now. Either it does or it doesn't. Stop lying to draw people into Linux and then when people complain about issues say that they didn't do their research.

There is some middle ground where neither Linux nor the user is as fault(firmware bugs) here but the Linux community knowingly lies about absolute problems that aren't.

 

Seriously, I think Linus even perfectly highlighted this when his computer crashes but you're going to just ignore that fact.

 

 

Why would someone make a "we can help" post if they are "pushing the narrative" that it just works? Pushing a narrative would be pretending that problems don't exist, not offering to help fix them.

 

And no, "just works" isn't black and white. All operating systems require some amount of configuration, setup, and even troubleshooting. The question is how much; it's a gradient.

 

The point is that Linux is better and more viable as a desktop than ever before, especially as a gaming platform. It's not perfect, it's not polished, but it's doable with a pretty reasonable amount of effort. For many workloads and hardware configurations, it arguably does "just work", and it provides many advantages over closed source, proprietary operating systems.

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Another guy from /r/linux_gaming here, I've got a lot of experience with the AMD side of Linux gaming, and know how to walk you through setup of things on most distros (Debian, Ubuntu,fedora,arch Linux,Solus,manjaro, and some others). 

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Is it just me or does Linus seem more open to Linux in general during the last year.

 

In that time, he's had his collaboration with Wendell and spoke about Linux on multiple occasions.


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3 minutes ago, Terryv said:

Is it just me or does Linus seem more open to Linux in general during the last year.

 

In that time, he's had his collaboration with Wendell and spoke about Linux on multiple occasions.

He has been using Linux for quite a while on some of his servers, he just didn't think his audience would be interested (which makes sense considering much of the hardware he reviews is marketed to "gamers"). Games got better on Linux recently so he's taking a look.


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Sauron'stm Product Scores:

Spoiler

Just a list of my personal scores for some products, in no particular order, with brief comments. I just got the idea to do them so they aren't many for now :)

Don't take these as complete reviews or final truths - they are just my personal impressions on products I may or may not have used, summed up in a couple of sentences and a rough score. All scores take into account the unit's price and time of release, heavily so, therefore don't expect absolute performance to be reflected here.

 

-Lenovo Thinkpad X220 - [8/10]

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A durable and reliable machine that is relatively lightweight, has all the hardware it needs to never feel sluggish and has a great IPS matte screen. Downsides are mostly due to its age, most notably the screen resolution of 1366x768 and usb 2.0 ports.

 

-Apple Macbook (2015) - [Garbage -/10]

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From my perspective, this product has no redeeming factors given its price and the competition. It is underpowered, overpriced, impractical due to its single port and is made redundant even by Apple's own iPad pro line.

 

-OnePlus X - [7/10]

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A good phone for the price. It does everything I (and most people) need without being sluggish and has no particularly bad flaws. The lack of recent software updates and relatively barebones feature kit (most notably the lack of 5GHz wifi, biometric sensors and backlight for the capacitive buttons) prevent it from being exceptional.

 

-Microsoft Surface Book 2 - [Garbage - -/10]

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Overpriced and rushed, offers nothing notable compared to the competition, doesn't come with an adequate charger despite the premium price. Worse than the Macbook for not even offering the small plus sides of having macOS. Buy a Razer Blade if you want high performance in a (relatively) light package.

 

-Intel Core i7 2600/k - [9/10]

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Quite possibly Intel's best product launch ever. It had all the bleeding edge features of the time, it came with a very significant performance improvement over its predecessor and it had a soldered heatspreader, allowing for efficient cooling and great overclocking. Even the "locked" version could be overclocked through the multiplier within (quite reasonable) limits.

 

-Apple iPad Pro - [5/10]

Spoiler

A pretty good product, sunk by its price (plus the extra cost of the physical keyboard and the pencil). Buy it if you don't mind the Apple tax and are looking for a very light office machine with an excellent digitizer. Particularly good for rich students. Bad for cheap tinkerers like myself.

 

 

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1 hour ago, BlueGoliath said:

 

Later versions after 16.04 might. 16.04 doesn't.

16.04 isn't supported for steam.


If you read Steam's Linux requirements :

 

Quote

Important:

Currently, Steam for Linux is only supported on the most recent version of Ubuntu LTS with the Unity, Gnome, or KDE desktops.

The current LTS is 18.04

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34 minutes ago, GodofGrunts said:

16.04 isn't supported for steam.


If you read Steam's Linux requirements :

 

The current LTS is 18.04

 

Actually, 12.04 is the only officially supported version. Not sure where you're getting your information.

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Isn't the reason why they didn't show everything or did things a certain way.... because otherwise the video would be like an hour long? You can only shove so much information in a video before you start losing your audience due to it simply being way too long.

Since I'm pretty sure Wendell would've known most of the "issues" with the video.


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Crossposting /r/linux_gaming

 

I find it amusing that this thread quickly derailed. It's really the mark of the Linux community, because everybody can have their own way.

 

We definitely are doing more Linux content in the future, and I definitely do intend to do more work on it. The way things went down previously, either we didn't have a whole lot of time to delve into things, or we just didn't have the resources - When we shot our Proton video, Proton was literally a couple days old. There wasn't a ProtonDB or any compatibility list to refer to other than Steam's whitelist, or really any troubleshooting. By the time the video dropped, however, that all changed.

 

Now, that's not to defend some of the things that went on in that video, but what I'm actually trying to say is that the next video will be done right, and I'll probably actually take @dragodin up on their offer and post in the linux_gaming subreddit when the time comes. I also probably won't make Linus bumble through it solo next time, either... I rather think the noob/mentor dynamic we have together works pretty well for stuff like this.


I've actually been thinking of moving over to Mint or Manjaro for my home PC, so it'll all be useful for me personally, too.


Anthony @ LINUS MEDIA GROUP             

I'm a handsome man with a charming personality. - Gabe Newell

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1 hour ago, GabenJr said:

I've actually been thinking of moving over to Mint or Manjaro for my home PC, so it'll all be useful for me personally, too.

OpenSuSe for the Win. As it also suports Steam Out of the Box....

But what really annoys me is the Linux Hyping without mentioning any of the Problems...

 

The biggest problems that Linux has is no way to easy install a driver. If you're new ot Linux, you can easily destroy your installation with the try to get the GPU Driver running.

 

The next one is lack of Standardization for executables. Every Linux Distribution does its own stuff.

Installation of Software is apt-get for Debian, Zypper for OpenSuSe, some other Packet Managers are also around....

 

The Desktop that's closest to Windows 10 in Usability is Gnome3 - wich for whatever reason chose to go the Apple UI Way. Yeah as if Apple Users want to switch to Linux...
And the Apple UI makes no sense for at least 5 dozen installed Applications. The good old Windows style UI (wich was a M$ Interpretation of a Unix UI IIRC)...

 

Buttom Line:
Linux is awesome for Servers because the configurability and openness is an advantage, if the right person is responsible for the server. And the disadvantages don't matter that much. THIS is where it shines.

But for a Consumer Desktop OS all the disadvantages Linux has shine through, you see and feel the disadvantages. Windows + Arrowkeys is not supported by many Desktop Enviroments. KDE totally breaks the Windows Shortkeys you know (others do it less).

 

If you use Linux, fine. But pls do not oversell the thing and be honest about it, its Problems and disadvantages, for Consumers, especially the Gamers. IIRC is the support for XBox One Gamepads still not that great (Blinking XBox Button when connected with the Wireless Dongle).

 

It has potential, but the Developers have to work togehter, work hard and do things to benefit the people, to convince them to go over to their side. I don't see that right now, sadly...

 

BUT: Linux (OpenSuSe Tumbleweed) Already is an awesome Gaming OS:
For Emulation of Gamecube, PS2 and PS1 Games (probably others as well), because OpenGL Support is better on Linux, you have less Problems there. The Vulkan and D3D Renderer isn't that good sadly.


"Hell is full of good meanings, but Heaven is full of good works"

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