AMD GPUs seems to have an advantage over the equivalent GeForce models in the BF5 alpha

[mr moose]

3 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Not such a bad idea in a 2 horse race though, you have to be better than the rest right? When there is only one other competitor it's not that great of a burden.

 

I know I could win an Olympic medal if there was only one other person competing and all he had to do was "have an accident"  .

This is how Aussies win gold in a competition they are not very good at.

 

[leadeater]

On 7/7/2018 at 1:59 AM, mr moose said:

That's it for me in a nut shell,  No proof, just the same result that can be put down to them working only on their own product.  when was the last time we called ford unethical because their alternator mounting design was not compatible with toyota?

Ford doesn't mount it using 14 welds, 100 bolts and use titanium. For the aforementioned tessellation people have specifically complained about that because there is at least some evidence that what is being done is unnecessary, like at all for anything.

 

Even if it's not done to hurt AMD and it is indeed unnecessary we can still call it bad for being resource wasting and inefficient.

 

On 7/7/2018 at 2:11 AM, mr moose said:

This is how Aussies win gold in a competition they are not very good at.

Love his videos 

[mr moose]

3 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Ford doesn't mount it using 14 welds, 100 bolts and use titanium. For the aforementioned tessellation people have specifically complained about that because there is at least some evidence that what is being done is unnecessary, like at all for anything.

 

Even if it's not done to hurt AMD and it is indeed unnecessary we can still call it bad for being resource wasting and inefficient.

When does a company have to be perfect to be ethical?  I am sure there are plenty of products out there that are grossly inefficient or of poor design quality. some companies even go broke because of said design decisions.

 

Some examples:

 

Apple nearly killed itself with over priced computers that weren't compatible with 99% of the business world.  It wasn't until MS ported office to mac that things changed.

 

Kodak have been working on digital camera's since the seventies.  That's nearly 40 years to get ahead of the market and they lost out due to poor design and product development.

 

I am sure there are others and it's not that hard to find closer examples with AMD spending the better part of the last decade with second place hardware on both the CPU and GPU front.  Sometimes companies just can't improve their shit without taking product ques from the opposition (something nvidia are just not going to do for more than just greed reasons).

[Guest]

DirectX is always going to lose vs a more optimised API. Just AMD doing hard yards for Battlefield fans. IMO both of them should just move on to Vulcan.

[leadeater]

5 minutes ago, mr moose said:

When does a company have to be perfect to be ethical?  I am sure there are plenty of products out there that are grossly inefficient or of poor design quality. some companies even go broke because of said design decisions.

That's not really what I was saying, if Nvidia has done said unnecessary levels of tessellation what ever the reasons then giving them grief about it is warranted. It's only unethical if they did to to hinder performance of AMD hardware but no matter what something that is bad is bad no matter which angle it's looked at.

 

Unlike Ford however, who can mount anything they like with as many welds, bolts and material they like it doesn't make every other car manufacturer also do the same. Well not unless it's a common design used across multiple brands of the general automotive company which is common, but eh besides the point.

 

If Nvidia lays a turd in a sandwich then hands that over to game developers who have to then put glitter on it plus add condiments then sell it to customers we're all still eating a turd sandwich, I'd rather not eat turd sandwiches myself.

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, leadeater said:

That's not really what I was saying, if Nvidia has done said unnecessary levels of tessellation what ever the reasons then giving them grief about it is warranted. It's only unethical if they did to to hinder performance of AMD hardware but no matter what something that is bad is bad no matter which angle it's looked at.

I never said it was good or that people shouldn't be unhappy with the performance (if it is actually bad, I wouldn't know, I run an AMD GPU), I was responding to the  assumption they are doing it intentionally to gimp AMD hardware because they are greedy.

 

2 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Unlike Ford however, who can mount anything they like with as many welds, bolts and material they like it doesn't make every other car manufacturer also do the same. Well not unless it's a common design used across multiple brands of the general automotive company which is common, but eh besides the point.

Which is my point, they make it the way they want that suits their design process and products, all other manufacturers be damned. This is normal business practice.

2 minutes ago, leadeater said:

If Nvidia lays a turd in a sandwich then hands that over to game developers who have to then put glitter on it plus add condiments then sell it to customers we're all still eating a turd sandwich, I'd rather not eat turd sandwiches myself.

Then don't eat them.   People only buy what they want, if they buy it it is because they want it.

[Stefan Payne]

3 hours ago, Jito463 said:

 Nvidia just likes to focus on making things that only play nice with their stuff.  Then they'll make arrangements with developers specifically to have them implement their closed-source libraries, so the game only runs well on Nvidia cards.

And that pisses off many peoples, wich leads them to buy consoles instead.

Because that's the only thing they can do right now.

[leadeater]

30 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Then don't eat them.   People only buy what they want, if they buy it it is because they want it.

So don't buy any games that have any hand in it by Nvidia? Might have to take up making my own at this rate.

 

31 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Which is my point, they make it the way they want that suits their design process and products, all other manufacturers be damned. This is normal business practice.

This does include all game developers and the customers, us the people.

 

Point is if literally everything is a turd sandwich then I have to never play any games anymore? You're being just a little too simplistic here, I wasn't going to point it out before with bringing up Ford but game development is just too reliant on multiple 3rd parties and it only takes one party to ruin it.

 

This is not a matter of not buying Nvidia graphics cards, that does nothing to address some of the complaints people have.

 

37 minutes ago, mr moose said:

I never said it was good or that people shouldn't be unhappy with the performance (if it is actually bad, I wouldn't know, I run an AMD GPU), I was responding to the  assumption they are doing it intentionally to gimp AMD hardware because they are greedy.

I know however some are bandwagoning but others do have reason behind their complaints.

[Stefan Payne]

2 hours ago, leadeater said:

The accusation very often is that Nvidia do look at AMD and ways to make it perform sub optimally on their hardware, not simply make it run well on their own hardware

There are some instances that prove that.

One is the tesselation of the (not visible) Water in Far Cry (or Crysis??), the other is their Hairworks wich is  based heavily on tesselation - wich is just utter bullshit and makes no sense to do it that way.

Some Programmers mentioned this in a German Forum. (and yes, they are pretty trustworthy I think).

[mr moose]

6 minutes ago, leadeater said:

So don't buy any games that have any hand in it by Nvidia? Might have to take up making my own at this rate.

 

This does include all game developers and the customers, us the people.

 

Point is if literally everything is a turd sandwich then I have to never play any games anymore? You're being just a little too simplistic here, I wasn't going to point it out before with bringing up Ford but game development is just too reliant on multiple 3rd parties and it only takes one party to ruin it.

 

This is not a matter of not buying Nvidia graphics cards, that does nothing to address some of the complaints people have.

 

I know however some are bandwagoning but others do have reason behind their complaints.

Yes, if the game is that bad then don't buy it, if someone hands money over for a product they think is shit then they need to see a psychiatrist.  I can't think of a rational reason to buy something if you genuinely think it is rubbish,  especially a luxury item like a game.

[veli2501]

4 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

Some Programmers mentioned this in a German Forum. (and yes, they are pretty trustworthy I think).

This guy told me that some German guy said it so it must be true.

[Humbug]

11 hours ago, Dan Castellaneta said:

Can I ask this to people here:

why is it when a game favors AMD by quite a bit, it's "good optimization" and Nvidia cards are "shit", but when a game favors Nvidia by quite a bit, it's "Gimpworks" and "Nvidia gimped AMD cards reeeeeeee"?

I don't think in this case people are claiming good optimization. It's a work in progress anyway, people are waiting to see the final product.

 

But to answer your question there is a factor where AMD was more selective about what games they were associated with. So being an AMD sponsored game with AMD heavily involved became a badge of honor in terms of graphical optimization. And even when AMD won the benchmarks Nvidia was also performing great. Maybe there were exceptions but in general that was the trend. Whereas Nvidia had no qualms about talking up their heavy involvement and plastering Iheir branding on all kinds of crap including Assasin's Creed Unity,  Arkham Knight etc. So being an Nvidia game became a badge of shame and PC gamers became suspicious.

 

The issue here was absolute performance, not relative performance. I.e. There were too many Nvidia games that performed badly on both Nvidia and AMD GPUs, so People don't care that Nvidia performed a bit better. They see a badly optimized game. And they are suspicious about the inclusion of effects which do not justify the performance hit.

 

So obviously now when people see an Nvidia sponsored game where they win the benchmarks by an abnormal amount they are suspicous and wonder "oh no is it another one of those games". Nvidia can fix this reputation by using their brand better in the next few years.

[Stefan Payne]

On 7/7/2018 at 2:29 AM, mr moose said:

When does a company have to be perfect to be ethical?

And why the hell do people have to defend such companys with such statements?!

 

Especially when we are talking about abuse of power to make their own products look better than they actually are, to make more money and sell a card at higher prices.

On 7/7/2018 at 2:29 AM, mr moose said:

I am sure there are plenty of products out there that are grossly inefficient or of poor design quality. some companies even go broke because of said design decisions.

And how many of those are to damage the competition?
And how many of those are just because of incompetence?

 

Usually its Incompetence, with Hairworks however that is highly unlikely because there was already a somewhat decent implementation of that, its called Tress FX.

Or why do you need Tesselation, that runs worse on the competition, to make a bit of hair?!

 

You don't its the worst way to do that.

 

On 7/7/2018 at 3:59 AM, veli2501 said:

This guy told me that some German guy said it so it must be true.

He worked on Doom, so yeah, I trust him more than people who try to discredit him because they don't want to believe some companys to be evil. Even if they are.

[Humbug]

3 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

 

Or why do you need Tesselation, that runs worse on the competition, to make a bit of hair?!

It was the degree of tessellation that was the problem, hurting performance on both brands of GPUs. They went way past the point of Visual pay off to the naked eye and did not allow an in game setting to make it reasonable.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, Stefan Payne said:

And why the hell do people have to defend such companys with such statements?!

 

Especially when we are talking about abuse of power to make their own products look better than they actually are, to make more money and sell a card at higher prices.

And how many of those are to damage the competition?
And how many of those are just because of incompetence?

 

Usually its Incompetence, with Hairworks however that is highly unlikely because there was already a somewhat decent implementation of that, its called Tress FX.

Or why do you need Tesselation, that runs worse on the competition, to make a bit of hair?!

 

You don't its the worst way to do that.

your whole post relies on your assumption that nvidia are intentionally evil and that other people can;t be rational about things and form different opinions. 

[Stefan Payne]

13 minutes ago, leadeater said:

So don't buy any games that have any hand in it by Nvidia? Might have to take up making my own at this rate.

Like getting the same Game on XBox or Playstation instead?

[leadeater]

Just now, mr moose said:

Yes, if the game is that bad then don't buy it, if someone hands money over for a product they think is shit then they need to see a psychiatrist.  I can't think of a rational reason to buy something if you genuinely think it is rubbish,  especially a luxury item like a game.

And if it's EVERY game? Yea no. How about you stop every single leisure activity and not buy any luxury items then get back to me if you think that is at all an adequate suggestion. You're ignoring the point I just gave to answer with that which ignores what I said.

 

If everything is Nvidia game works then that is a problem, not because that means every game is made with Nvidia game works but because there are know issues with it. People will complain until that is no longer the case and you're just going to have to see that until it is fixed. My suggestion would be strap in for many more years of complaining.

[Stefan Payne]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

your whole post relies on your assumption that nvidia are intentionally evil and that other people can;t be rational about things and form different opinions. 

Then answer the questions.

Why Tesselation for hair, when there is a better implementation that doesn't needs it?

 

And why Gameworks as a closed source?
And why the contracts that forbid the participant to work with "the other side"?

All not evil or anti-competitive, right?

[mr moose]

On 7/7/2018 at 4:05 AM, leadeater said:

And if it's EVERY game? Yea no. How about you stop every single leisure activity and not buy any luxury items then get back to me if you think that is at all an adequate suggestion. You're ignoring the point I just gave to answer with that which ignores what I said.

 

If everything is Nvidia game works then that is a problem, not because that means every game is made with Nvidia game works but because there are know issues with it. People will complain until that is no longer the case and you're just going to have to see that until it is fixed. My suggestion would be strap in for many more years of complaining.

It's not every game though, and even if it was, if it's truly a shit eating experience then why would you spend money on it?  i don't buy food that tastes like shit, I don't buy cars that drive like shit, I don't buy paint that I don't like the color of and I won't buy a game I don't enjoy.

 

If something is as bad a you say then why buy it? 

 

On 7/7/2018 at 4:07 AM, Stefan Payne said:

Then answer the questions.

Why Tesselation for hair, when there is a better implementation that doesn't needs it?

 

And why Gameworks as a closed source?
And why the contracts that forbid the participant to work with "the other side"?

All not evil or anti-competitive, right?

They have been answered.  Read the last couple of pages.

[Stefan Payne]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

They have been answered.  Read the last couple of pages.

I want it from YOU!

Because YOU are the one defending nVidia, not "other People", who might or might not have answered the question.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, Stefan Payne said:

I want it from YOU!

Because YOU are the one defending nVidia, not "other People", who might or might not have answered the question.

If you had bothered to read the thread you would have noticed the I did address them. You would also note that I am not "defending" nvidia, but thanks for trying to insinuate I have an agenda.

[Stefan Payne]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

If you had bothered to read the thread you would have noticed the I did address them. You would also note that I am not "defending" nvidia, but thanks for trying to insinuate I have an agenda.

And why is it you still try to defend nVidia and don't mention their behaviour??

 

Here the Question, answer them:

 

6 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Then answer the questions.

Why Tesselation for hair, when there is a better implementation that doesn't needs it?

 

And why Gameworks a closed source package that nobody can really talk about or only modify after nVidia allows it?
And why the contracts that forbid the participant to work with "the other side"?

All not evil or anti-competitive, right?

 

Why don't you say anything about that, why do you deflect the Question?

[leadeater]

Just now, mr moose said:

If something is as bad a you say then why buy it? 

When it's the only option, you know like I just said. 

 

Or as some people do, complain about it to fill all the google search meta data with it so whenever it comes up it's always associated with issues so Nvidia might start thinking about trying to resolve those complains.

 

There are more options than not buying a game with Nvidia GameWorks, like trying to get the problems sorted so it's no longer an issue. Like with the tessellation, better game developers have addressed that now they are aware of it. Seems to me trying to raise awareness of problems is an effective option, more so than not buying games with GameWorks in them.

 

As I said, strap in for the ride, people will complain about GameWorks until the general perception of it changes. Who knows this could be one of many more games to come that helps change that perception.

[JoostinOnline]

38 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

Some Programmers mentioned this in a German Forum. (and yes, they are pretty trustworthy I think).

Let's be honest, you'd believe it if a stranger told you NVIDIA assassinated Lisa Su and replaced her with a cyborg.

[mr moose]

27 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

Why don't you say anything about that, why do you deflect the Question?

Because I have already answered those questions.  You are intentionally ignoring my other posts.

15 minutes ago, leadeater said:

When it's the only option, you know like I just said. 

 

Only option or not, if its genuinely shit don't buy it.  I don't understand why you would spend money on something you don't like. There is literally more to life than buying games you don't like. It's not compulsory.

Quote

Or as some people do, complain about it to fill all the google search meta data with it so whenever it comes up it's always associated with issues so Nvidia might start thinking about trying to resolve those complains.

 

There are more options than not buying a game with Nvidia GameWorks, like trying to get the problems sorted so it's no longer an issue. Like with the tessellation, better game developers have addressed that now they are aware of it. Seems to me trying to raise awareness of problems is an effective option, more so than not buying games with GameWorks in them.

 

As I said, strap in for the ride, people will complain about GameWorks until the general perception of it changes. Who knows this could be one of many more games to come that helps change that perception.

That's great and all, but i don't see how it relates to what I said.  you are talking about ways to fix an issue, I was merely talking about the motive of said issue and the personality of certain people who weight in on such topics.