Vice President and General Manager of AMD Radeon Gaming accuses NVIDIA GPP of monopolistic and anti competitive practices

[Master Disaster]

Welp, this is the fire that just keeps burning.

 

Scott Herkelman, the VP & GM of Radeon Gaming has spoken out on Twitter about how AMDs partners are reporting potentially illegal and almost certainly anti competitive practices being forced onto anybody who signs up for the GPP.

 

So first it's important to distinguish the difference between a strong marketing program and being anti competitive

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NVIDIA GPP is a marketing program that the company published on their website for quite some time now. While discussions on whether or not what they are doing is ethical and whether we should let the market decide for itself will go on, it is important to parititon the allegations into two distinct categories. 1) the unethical and unsavory practices and 2) the downright illegal ones.

 

So far, we have heard and tell of the first portion. The first portion operates under the idea that the company is managing its own marketing channels and within it, can enforce its own regulations as long as the discrimination against Radeon products is done, well, without discrimination. The second portion contains things like MDF and allocations – which are illegal. To put it in simple terms, they can enforce ‘Dont sell Radeon products in the same marketing brand as ours’ but they cannot legally enforce ‘Dont sell Radeon products and we will give you $$$ as an MDF in return for it, and if you decide to do so anyways, we will withold chip allocation.’ This is what makes these tweet of Mr. Scott so potent.

So the tweets then...

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These words contain the very serious and consequential allegation of MDFs (marketing development funds) and allocation – which is allegedly part of the wider NVIDIA GPP program and is almost certainly illegal. It is clear that AMD is mounting pressure on its competitor and hoping to find a smoking gun but proceedings and cases like these can take well into the better part of a decade to resolve.

So again, this is all being reported to AMD by partners, presumably who are members of the program and have first hand experience of what's going on.

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Scott apparently talked to various resellers at AMD Sales event this past week and and alot of them expressed concerns about NVIDIA crippling their ability to market and/or sell RADEON branded products. We have already seen major bands like MSI drop the Gaming branding from AMD products and even heavy weights like ASUS have decided to shift Radeon to new homes like the AREZ series – so it is clear, that some very powerful ‘inctives’ are at play to make these companies change their long established paradigms and disrupt old branding strategies.

Even the partners are saying they think the GPP is Illegal, hurting consumer choice and designed to cripple competition

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From what we have heard so far, the general tone of the conversations with partners was like so:

• They think that it has terms that are likely illegal
• GPP is likely going to tremendously hurt consumers’ choices
• It will disrupt business with the companies that they are currently doing business with, namely AMD and Intel

Another of the worrying possibilities is Nvidia using the GPP as a method a restricting die allocation for non members essentially forcing any manufacturer who wants to use Nvidia GPUs into signing up, Nvidia apparently already have history with imposing restrictions on AIBs who haven't met certain targets

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Most of the contracts for GPP have been signed and if the company’s own statements are to be believed they have the wide majority of players already in the contract. This is one of those things that are going to take years in court before any conclusion is reached and anything is proved. Regardless of what happens though, this is going to be sure to turn a lot of attention NVIDIA’s way now.

 

The primary problem with the program is the apparent disconnect between the written and the unwritten. GPU dies are scarce, it is not like there is an abundance to go around and NVIDIA can choose who to allocate its product to. We have already seen examples of this before (where NVIDIA would only hand out the high end GPUs to AIBs if the AIB in question had sold a set quantity of low end GPUs first – usually an order of magnitude larger) so it is clear that there is some history of priority allocation – whether or not such an allocation is written down anywhere.

https://wccftech.com/amd-reply-geforce-partner-program-radeon/

 

I think we're heading for a very lengthy and very expensive litigation and court battle over this. IMO AMD are correct in pretty much everything they're saying and I have to wonder how many consumers are going to start avoiding Nvidia products now. Will Nvidia ultimately end up hurting themselves with this?

 

The FTC should probably be asking Nvidia for a copy of the GPP right now.

[KarathKasun]

Just been waiting for the other shoe to drop honestly.

 

Sadly, it will not sway the consumer base one way or another.  Expect the same thing that happened to intel, no market share hit because customers do not care/know and a fine.

[Tech_Dreamer]

AMD need to bring in a competitive product first, you can complain all you want , but second best option every time when they release something isn't gonna cut it in this industry. they will control the market even without this.

[Humbug]

While discussions on whether or not what they are doing is ethical and whether we should let the market decide for itself will go on, it is important to parititon the allegations into two distinct categories. 1) the unethical and unsavory practices and 2) the downright illegal ones

Agree with this as a consumer.

 

I absolutely can and do decide which company's practices I currently prefer as a consumer, and I will choose to spend my money accordingly and also state my opinion on it when appropriate.

 

The legality and criminality aspect of it however requires not only laws to be broken, but also sufficient evidence to be exposed.

 

 

[f22luke]

We knew this would happen and I bet people are talking to AMD but if there are no written contracts like it implies I don't see how they can pin anything on Nvidia until the damage is already done.  Intel got in trouble because some emails were seized so unless we have it in writing it will take even longer than the 10+ years for Intel to finally start paying for their evil deeds.

[Master Disaster]

Just now, Tech_Dreamer said:

AMD need to bring in a competitive product first, you can complain all you want , but second best option every time when they release something isn't gonna cut it in this industry. they will control the market even without his.

I can certainly see your point but that doesn't give Nvidia a free pass to try and extinguish them especially since, as you said, they're not really competing already so why go so hard on the scheme at all?

[KarathKasun]

3 minutes ago, Tech_Dreamer said:

AMD need to bring in a competitive product first, you can complain all you want , but second best option every time when they release something isn't gonna cut it in this industry. they will control the market even without this.

This is like saying, "well they have the best product, so they can do whatever they want because the outcome will be the same"

 

Think before you type.

[Tech_Dreamer]

2 minutes ago, KarathKasun said:

This is like saying, "well they have the best product, so they can do whatever they want because the outcome will be the same"

 

Think before you type.

it's business . pure and simple  . less of a competition there is the better. This industry needs competition. if they cant keep up with it, they can come in second.

[Humbug]

1 minute ago, Master Disaster said:

I can certainly see your point but that doesn't give Nvidia a free pass

It seems to be a popular opinion sadly even though it's stupid. Nvidia has a better architecture right now so AMD should only focus on improving there and not talk about anything else. It's ridiculous, as if the two things are mutually exclusive. 

 

If somebody walks into your house and steals your TV you can call the cops and they will look into it to check the veracity of your claim, they are not gonna sit there and say 'forget about it, you should focus on getting your life in order'.

[KarathKasun]

Just now, Tech_Dreamer said:

it's business . pure and simple  . less of a competition there is the better. This industry needs competition. if they cant keep up with it, they can come in second.

This isn't about coming in 2nd.  This is about a company stonewalling a market to prevent competition from ever happening.  If AMD cant sell what they do make, there will never be a competitive part.

[Master Disaster]

10 minutes ago, Humbug said:

 

 

Agree with this as a consumer.

 

I absolutely can and do decide which company's practices I currently prefer as a consumer, and I will choose to spend my money accordingly and also state my opinion on it when appropriate.

 

The legality and criminality aspect of it however requires not only laws to be broken, but also sufficient evidence to be exposed.

 

 

I think the issue is you, I and almost everyone likely to be reading this post stand a much higher chance of being informed about what's going on than average John or Sue who just want a computer/laptop that works.

 

Nvidia are banking on there being more less informed people (that sounds so much like an oxymoron) than well informed people who will buy their products without knowing what's going on.

 

IMO anyway.

[Master Disaster]

3 minutes ago, KarathKasun said:

This isn't about coming in 2nd.  This is about a company stonewalling a market to prevent competition from ever happening.  If AMD cant sell what they do make, there will never be a competitive part.

Exactly, being in the lead isn't a free pass to remove your opponent from the competition although it's amazing how many corporations believe the opposite.

[KarathKasun]

5 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

Exactly, being in the lead isn't a free pass to remove your opponent from the competition although it's amazing how many corporations believe the opposite.

Its not just companies, its also the fanbois.

 

Like when when people have the attitude of "if your part isn't in first place you shouldnt even try yo."

 

I guess NV should have just shut down the company when the 9700 Pro came out.

[Humbug]

14 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

I think the issue is you, I and almost everyone likely to be reading this post stand a much higher chance of being informed about what's going on than average John or Sue who just want a computer/laptop that works.

 

Nvidia are banking on their being more less informed people (that sounds so much like an oxymoron) than well informed people who will buy their products without knowing what's going on.

 

IMO anyway.

True

 

At the same time smaller company AMD has generally had their success by catering to a smaller segment of the population often Tech savvy people.

 

Average Joe knows the intel brand, and average gamer knows the geforce brand. But still AMD has done well in the past on a smaller scale because they can sell enough products to particular segments to be profitable even without the mass market reach of some competitors.

 

The best current example is Ryzen... Mostly DIY builders purchased it in 2017. Not as mass market as Intel's reach with all their channel partnerships etc. The ryzen sales numbers would not be a huge deal for an intel product. But it's a big deal for AMD and it helped then to make a profit.

 

So even if they are only getting the message out to a limited audience, they still have to do it... It matters, they have to cater to their (smaller) market. 

[Master Disaster]

3 minutes ago, Humbug said:

True

 

At the same time smaller company AMD has generally had their success by catering to a smaller segment of the population often Tech savvy people.

 

Average Joe knows the intel brand, and average gamer knows the geforce brand. But still AMD has done well in the past on a smaller scale because they can sell enough products to particular segments to be profitable even without the mass market reach of some competitors.

 

The best current example is Ryzen... Mostly DIY builders and purchased it in 2017. Not as mass market as Intel's reach with all their channel partnerships etc. The ryzen sales numbers would not be a huge deal for an intel product. But it's a big deal for AMD and it helped then to make a profit.

 

So even if they are only getting the message out to a limited audience, they still have to do it... It matters, they have to cater to their (smaller) market. 

Zen is a perfect example of why competition is important...

 

Intel have released more cores since Zen launched than they did in the previous 10 years.

 

I think what you said about Radeon v Geforce was correct until AMD dropped the RX series. AMD did a perfect job with product positioning and marketing the RX because while it was still technically inferior to Nvidias fastest card it was also MUCH cheaper and was a pretty huge generational improvement. This caused a lot of reviewers to call it the best bang for buck card on the market and that really helped to grow the brand. It's just a shame so few OEMs choose to use AMD products in prebuilts, hopefully Ryzen will help to change this moving forward.

 

AMD also have one thing over Nvidia, one thing that's never likely to go away. Apple.

[vanished]

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To put it in simple terms, they can enforce ‘Dont sell Radeon products in the same marketing brand as ours’ but they cannot legally enforce ‘Dont sell Radeon products and we will give you $$$ as an MDF in return for it, and if you decide to do so anyways, we will withold chip allocation.’ This is what makes these tweet of Mr. Scott so potent.

Wow, that doesn't sound exactly like what I've said before or anything

[asus killer]

AMD sounds like a cry baby by now. Either it's illegal and go to the courts or just deal with it, make your own agreements. Too much drama.

 

If we are just talking about unsavory and unethical issues let me tel you AMD about the release of a inferior rx560. If you were on Intel's shoes you would probably do the same, so get out of the consumer defending hero high horse and move on.

[Guest The Viking]

19 minutes ago, asus killer said:

If we are just talking about unsavory and unethical issues let me tel you AMD about the release of a inferior rx560. If you were on Intel's shoes you would probably do the same, so get out of the consumer defending hero high horse and move on.

but nvidia also released a cut down mx150 without telling anybody? So what? who's unsavory and unethical now? AMD only? they all doing it. That's why we have to point out those faults. nobody's shutting up about the cut down rx560. But I've seen less drama for the mx150. 

 

Oh and who released a 3.5gb card while claiming until the end it was 4gb? not AMD, last time I checked.

6 minutes ago, huilun02 said:

Just get every company targeted by GPP to reveal the agreement terms and bury Nvidia in a landslide

won't happen till the end, we both know how these agreements work. If it really is illegal, it'll take a mistake from one of the companies to discover the entire thing, but after the whole intel thing... I wouldn't surprised if nvidia took its precautions.

[AresKrieger]

It's not anticompetitive if you don't think you can win that lawsuit, anticompetitive is a legal term in this case and if it actually was then they would have sued rather than whined on repeat. I was fine with it the first time but its now just becoming annoying either sue them of shut the hell up.

[AlTech]

19 minutes ago, asus killer said:

AMD sounds like a cry baby by now.

Ummm. No, AMD's not. Nvidia is getting away with basically illegal practices

19 minutes ago, asus killer said:

Either it's illegal and go to the courts or just deal with it, make your own agreements.

For now, people who work at the companies which are part of the GPP are too afraid of losing their job to say anything on the record. Almost everything so far that has been said has mostly been off the record conversations.

 

4 minutes ago, The Viking said:

but nvidia also released a cut down mx150 without telling anybody? So what? who's unsavory and unethical now? AMD only? they all doing it. That's why we have to point out those faults. nobody's shutting up about the cut down rx560. But I've seen less drama for the mx150. 

cos there's a lot of Nvidia fanboys.

4 minutes ago, The Viking said:

Oh and who released a 3.5gb card while claiming until the end it was 4gb? not AMD, last time I checked.

won't happen till the end, we both know how these agreements work. If it really is illegal, it'll take a mistake from one of the companies to discover the entire thing, but after the whole intel thing... I wouldn't surprised if nvidia took its precautions.

Oh yeah, definitely.

 

Nvidia's not stupid. They will get rid of any evidence that exists of it and it will either take somebody screwing up one day or a raid on Nvidia's offices to discover anything.

[asus killer]

13 minutes ago, The Viking said:

but nvidia also released a cut down mx150 without telling anybody? So what? who's unsavory and unethical now? AMD only? they all doing it. That's why we have to point out those faults. nobody's shutting up about the cut down rx560. But I've seen less drama for the mx150. 

 

Oh and who released a 3.5gb card while claiming until the end it was 4gb? not AMD, last time I checked.

won't happen till the end, we both know how these agreements work. If it really is illegal, it'll take a mistake from one of the companies to discover the entire thing, but after the whole intel thing... I wouldn't surprised if nvidia took its precautions.

you agree with me, neither can talk very much about morals.

 

I'm no lawyer but you can make them present those agreements in court. This seems like passive aggressive BS, just go to court. 

[Guest The Viking]

2 minutes ago, asus killer said:

I'm no lawyer but you can make them present those agreements in court. This seems like passive aggressive BS, just go to court. 

it took the european commission 10 years to entirely figure out the Intel debacle. 10 years of analyzing thousands of random documents, e-mails and raiding their offices. That's knowing how careless intel was at the same time as they handed out billions to all pc makers.

 

So for nvidia...

[asus killer]

7 minutes ago, The Viking said:

it took the european commission 10 years to entirely figure out the Intel debacle. 10 years of analyzing thousands of random documents, e-mails and raiding their offices. That's knowing how careless intel was at the same time as they handed out billions to all pc makers.

 

So for nvidia...

i think this is different, the court can easily make Asus, gigabyte, etc.. present the agreement that is just a piece of paper. They can't say no to the court.

If it's not in writing they can make those companies testify under oath, i don't see them all lying to the court under penalty of perjury.

These companies wouldn't even get pissed because they don't want the agreement either and it would be a way out of it that they can say they had nothing to do it it.

 

AMD can also file an injunction so that the agreement doesn't take effect until the court decides it's legal. But again i'm not a lawyer and know even less of US law, but i really don't think it's that unsolvable. 

[Guest The Viking]

Just now, asus killer said:

i think this is different, the court can easily make Asus, gigabyte, etc.. present the agreement that is just a piece of paper. They can't say no to the court.

If it's not in writing they can make those companies testify under oath, i don't see them all lying to the court under penalty of perjury.

 

AMD can also file an injunction so that the agreement doesn't take effect until the court decides it's legal. But again i'm not a lawyer and know even less of US law, but i really don't think it's that unsolvable. 

you wouldd be surprised... 

[Misanthrope]

AMD can't really do much about it: they just don't have enough money to sue Nvidia at this moment. I think their angle is trying to get somebody like the EU to help them move forward legally (which they should btw)