Vice President and General Manager of AMD Radeon Gaming accuses NVIDIA GPP of monopolistic and anti competitive practices

[laminutederire]

53 minutes ago, Razor01 said:

Right but they are still doing fine lol, it hurt them in one quarter, but how about the others?  Things like that don't have any sustain ability.

Stop looking purely at global figures. They have a lot of other games that always sell well like fifa. SWB2 did not make them as much money as they'd hope. That's the first thing. The second thing is that if it didn't affect them a bit, would they be apologizing, then changing their practices on SWB2, then changing strategy on Anthem monetization as well? Probably not.

[Razor01]

1 hour ago, laminutederire said:

Stop looking purely at global figures. They have a lot of other games that always sell well like fifa. SWB2 did not make them as much money as they'd hope. That's the first thing. The second thing is that if it didn't affect them a bit, would they be apologizing, then changing their practices on SWB2, then changing strategy on Anthem monetization as well? Probably not.

Look take one thing away they will find 2 or 3 more things they can make money on, guaranteed.  Companies don't languish around spoiled milk.

 

We had this discussion before, you don't think nV didn't know there was going to be a potential back lash to this?  Oh I'm sure they looked into it.  If they don't care about these multiple IHV AIB's, which they clearly do not care, they were already ready to lose some sales if they dropped selling nV cards, what ever that percentage is they would have had actuaries figure all that stuff out before proceeding anyways.

 

Look at HardOCP's thread about boycotting nV products, there was like 1 out of 20 people saying there they would the other 19 people were saying until AMD actually made better products then they would.  And these are enthusiasts that know what is going on.  How about the mass of people that don't know anything about any of this?

 

Boycotts don't work with a 2 company race and one company is lagging behind. 

 

Worse yet this isn't for this generation of products, its the up coming generation AIB's are worried about.  Where we all know AMD isn't going to be competitive at all, their need to go to 7nm with Navi, is only to maintain some sort of semblance of perf/watt, they might be able to get to Pascal's level but that is going to be much later than nV's next gen cards coming out.

 

Better yet go ahead and boycott nV cards because then these AIB's and OEM's will get their balls cut off when they don't meet their projections for quarterly revenue lol.

 

Either way you look at it everyone will get screwed.

 

All I see when people talk about boycotting, its evil, its blah, they only look at it as a one dimensional thing.  There are so many things going on it can't be done with thinking down a one way path.

 

Then you have AMD coming out with this marketing campaign that to me I don't know but its damn tribalistic, all they needed were some bongo drums.

 

 

[laminutederire]

2 minutes ago, Razor01 said:

 

It must be sad to be you...

Personally I despise those practices and I have the degree to pursue a career well placed in those companies, so I will and I will make sure that my company will be ethical (Like really, not American company ethical where they just use that as marketing.)

 

Those AIB will lose money overall, just like OEM did with Intel's practices last time.

 

The worst fanboys are in the "enthusiasts" though. Because most of them think they know better than everyone else and that because of that they can't be wrong in saying something is better than something else, and they'll get stubborn as hell. It happens on this forum all the time for instance. So their take on the issue is kind of the worst case.

Case in point, I was discussing the matter on a cs go server with non techie friends, and when they learned that suspicion, they told me that they'd buy amd cards instead of the Nvidia ones they were thinking of. Why? Because they were looking at max 580-1060 level, with either or cards being just fine for their needs. For the non enthusiasts there is less incentive to look at segments where amd falls behind.

 

Your next argument does not hold any value though. It's your speculation on it. I could say to you that Navi will crush Nvidias next gen, and I will be just as right.

You don't know how Navi will perform, neither do you know how next gen of Nvidia will perform. Hell were not even sure how it's called. Probably no one knows both information as of today.

[Razor01]

1 hour ago, laminutederire said:

It must be sad to be you...

Personally I despise those practices and I have the degree to pursue a career well placed in those companies, so I will and I will make sure that my company will be ethical (Like really, not American company ethical where they just use that as marketing.)

 

Those AIB will lose money overall, just like OEM did with Intel's practices last time.

 

The worst fanboys are in the "enthusiasts" though. Because most of them think they know better than everyone else and that because of that they can't be wrong in saying something is better than something else, and they'll get stubborn as hell. It happens on this forum all the time for instance. So their take on the issue is kind of the worst case.

Case in point, I was discussing the matter on a cs go server with non techie friends, and when they learned that suspicion, they told me that they'd buy amd cards instead of the Nvidia ones they were thinking of. Why? Because they were looking at max 580-1060 level, with either or cards being just fine for their needs. For the non enthusiasts there is less incentive to look at segments where amd falls behind.

 

Your next argument does not hold any value though. It's your speculation on it. I could say to you that Navi will crush Nvidias next gen, and I will be just as right.

You don't know how Navi will perform, neither do you know how next gen of Nvidia will perform. Hell were not even sure how it's called. Probably no one knows both information as of today.

I'm sure most people don't like how many businesses operate.

 

OEM's didn't lose money for what Intel did lol, they made more money than if they actually sold chips lol  That is why they did it!  Wasn't it Michael Dell who stated, was the easiest money they ever got?  or to that effect?  Not only did they still make money from selling systems with Intel processors, but they also got over a billion dollars a year from Intel for not selling AMD products, effectively adding even more to their bottom line.

 

Oh so now you are calling enthusiasts Fanboys now?  Are you kidding me?  I'm sorry but I have known many of those guys for years and I have never seen H forums and users as fanboys outside of the newbies that come in and talk smack.  Many of those users have supported ATi and AMD prior to their graphics down fall and CPU downfall too.

 

I'm not speculating on Navi sorry, I know AMD is not going to do much with Navi, its based off of GCN and it was taped out late last year early this year, its set in stone R&D didn't go up for Navi lol.

 

And you know I know my shit when it comes to chips, and design, and how long things take to get them out and process of making them.  The disparity they have right now they can't fix GCN, they must need a new design from a transistor level all the way up to the GPU plumbing.  The time allotted for Navi's design, not enough to that, and for them saying its GCN, that right there tells me they didn't do what needed to be done to fix the previous problems they have had because if they did do those changes, it wouldn't be called GCN.

 

This is a rant:

 

Here is the problem with most "people" on forums and most "people" in general, they don't understand the multitude of things going on, they only see one side of the problem and try to argue that side of the problem to what ever benefit they deem fit. 

 

They want to talk about law and lawsuits, and anti trust, but they don't know jack about all those things and how they are done, just because they "think" it seems to fit into some twisted way of their thinking they think it should be done.  The world doesn't work that way.

 

Just like you thought CUDA is bad because its closed, I explained that to you before, why CUDA itself isn't bad, lets go into this deeper,  first off CUDA just exposes features of nV cards (that is all an API does, any API), some of those features are not even there on AMD cards that is why Open CL is behind CUDA and also why programs are hard to port over, many of those enhancements are done for speed purposes for specific techniques, which AMD's hardware is not equipped to handle.  This is why we see nV cards with less Tflops still keeping up with AMD cards among other things as well.

 

CUDA has been able to stay ahead of Open Cl and is pulling even father ahead gen to gen because nV is adding new features to its cards, while AMD hasn't been doing so much, yeah with Vega they added RPM, which is nice, but that was after how many years and gens?  That is the problem they are moving too slow and nV is moving too fast.  That is the problem with open source vs closed source, closed source has the full attention of a singular mind (corporation), open source needs that and also other companies involved that think the same way for it to compete.  Eventually open source will get be as good as closed source but not in the initial stages.  AMD doesn't even have much attention to HSA and Open CL lol.  How would you expect other companies to follow AMD's lead when AMD is not willing to take the bull by the horns?

[wasab]

Only until consumers do a boycott of greedvidia products, would they truly learn a lesson

[79wjd]

2 minutes ago, wasab said:

Only until consumers do a boycott of greedvidia products, would they truly learn a lesson

Yep, let's boycott Nvidia and all jump to AMD, who will do the exact same thing as soon as they're not desperate for customers. 

 

[wasab]

I prefer android open sourced project to iOS and Linux to windows any day

[Razor01]

2 minutes ago, wasab said:

I prefer android open sourced project to iOS and Linux to windows any day

I do too but that wasn't the reason I bought Android.  If there was a windows phone that could have competed with Android phones from a hardware level I would have gotten that.

 

The reason why I got android was because I could customize it to my content.  Can't do that with iOS.

[wasab]

4 minutes ago, djdwosk97 said:

Yep, let's boycott Nvidia and all jump to AMD, who will do the exact same thing as soon as they're not desperate for customers. 

 

I really find your cynicism interesting. It is like those skeptic voters. They like to say if you vote an opposition into power, they will start screwing you just like the previous government so why bother to vote?

 

Consumers are getting screwed over by corporations. People need to do something about it. It can be either the courts or boycotts but bottom line is anti competive practice need to stop.

[Razor01]

1 minute ago, wasab said:

I really find your cynicalism interesting. It is like those skeptic voters. They like to say if you vote an opposition into power, they will start screwing you just like the previous government so why bother to vote?

 

Consumers are getting screwed over by corporations. People need to do something about it. It can be either the courts or boycotts but bottom line is anti competing pratice need to stop.

You should read this

 

https://digitalcommons.law.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=2552&context=lawreview

 

Current laws are ill equipped to handle this type of avenue.  Not only that if you read this you will see it all comes down to one thing the current anti trust laws which conform around prices, mergers, market manipulation tactics.  Which none of these have anything to do with has nV is doing.

 

You really need to understand the legal ramifications on both sides of what you are asking for.  This is why its very difficult to go at it from a legal point of view. 

 

Yeah we can all say lets not buy nV products, but that is few and far between, as another has mentioned ( @Master Disaster ) for every one person that does that 10 others won't.

[KarathKasun]

12 minutes ago, djdwosk97 said:

Yep, let's boycott Nvidia and all jump to AMD, who will do the exact same thing as soon as they're not desperate for customers.

This is why you never go full fanboy.  I guess we need to boycott Intel because they have a CPU for sale at ~$2000 now that is not twice as fast as the competitions ~$1000 part.  I wonder how much the 8086K is going to cost too...

 

If one company is overpricing their products because of market dominance you switch brands.  Building PC's does not require that you only buy parts from one company forever.  Taking the "Ill only ever buy products from company X because they are the fastest right now" stance is much of what is wrong with the PC market.

[Razor01]

Just now, KarathKasun said:

This is why you never go full fanboy.  I guess we need to boycott Intel because they have a CPU for sale at ~$2000 now that is not twice as fast as the competitions ~$1000 part.  I wonder how much the 8086K is going to cost too...

 

If one company is overpricing their products because of market dominance you switch brands.  Building PC's does not require that you only buy parts from one company forever.  Taking the "Ill only ever buy products from company X because they are the fastest right now" stance is much of what is wrong with the PC market.

I don't anyone's stated they will only buy one companies products because of what they have now lol.  I certainty hope not lol.

[KarathKasun]

Just now, Razor01 said:

I don't anyone's stated they will only buy one companies products because of what they have now lol.  I certainty hope not lol.

There are plenty of people who do this.

[Razor01]

3 minutes ago, KarathKasun said:

There are plenty of people who do this.

 

 

Well I do things like that with my cars I buy but really computer parts, things that affect my work and what not I always look for the best products that will affect my productivity.  I hope most people are like that when it comes to their lively hood.

 

I can see that with normal day to day stuff. but still..... its not like I will stick to one manufacture of clothing or something.  I look for the best deals with the same quality.

[mr moose]

4 minutes ago, Razor01 said:

Yeah we can all say lets not buy nV products, but that is few and far between, as another has mentioned ( @Master Disaster ) for every one person that does that 10 others won't.

Because basically consumers don't care.  Educated consumers and average Joe's will buy the product that best serves their needs regardless of how crappy the company is.   I can't think of a single company today that has suffered a drop in sales due to unethical behaviour (and there have been a few).   Fanboys are a minority, just like boycotts. 

[laminutederire]

1 hour ago, Razor01 said:

 

They also stated that it was a mistake doing this because it did hurt their reputation. 

 

I'm saying enthusiasts generally do not see further than their desk. They'll say just like you that Nvidia is better for a few reasons, while the reality is that for most people Nvidia isn't really better. The average guy won't go higher than a 1070-vega 56 anyway, and most will buy into sub 580-1060. They also do not generally care about issues outside of their immediate environment. And that's what bothers me the most. The Nvidia situation is quite bad, because it has significant implications on multiple aspects of society. In an era where AI become tools to surveil people, to power transportation or to replace menial jobs, there is a danger in giving all the power to one company. In this case, Nvidia locks down artificially the AI industry by accounting for the laziness of devs who won't bother to port code to OpenCL if they don't have any incentive to (and yes I say lazy, because as of right now, there exist a tool to port CUDA to OpenCL which automates the process for 99% of the codebase, and that's still not enough for dev to get into it,which is baffling in a way, since a program almost does it all). It gives Nvidia too much power and they will abuse it as most company do (just like they're most probably doing with the gpp by the way.). Personally that's something that is more important than better hardware, because it has a real impact on our future as humans.

 

You may know things about chips, but so do I and so do a lot of people here. It remains that you are not working at RTG (gosh I hope so, you'd be suicidal with your hatred for their products), so you do not know what is Navi. It's not because it's already finalized that it is bad. We don't have a clue of what it is since no details have been given on it really. Basing your assumptions on habit is reasonable, but it is in no shape or form a valid argument in itself. It was Hume, who once said that it is not because the sun set up every morning, that it will do so next morning.

 

To be fair, the world does not work in a sustainable way currently.

Nvidia uses tricks to enhance speed. Issue is that it is done in a non transparent way since their API hides stuff only for their own product. That can hide things that should be of concern like worse accuracy, edge cases not accounted for and so on. That is subject to worry as well. I base this off the fact that it has been observed for instance that Nvidia had issues with image quality sometimes with the way they handle speedups. Because the truth is that sometimes there really is nothing you can do to make things faster without solving a subproblem with more or different assumptions. And Nvidia seems to do that sometimes by degrading quality. It's a trade-off, sure, but it's a trade-off that should be transparent, in case you know your application can't afford that speedup.

 

Fortunately OpenCL starts getting some grounds. I think in less than 5 years CUDA may be outdated. The reason why is that Intel wants a piece of the HPC cake, and it is more profitable to work on pushing OpenCL which has work already done and which has got a bit of traction through AMD. And since Intel has more money and will to spend to push tech, that may be what OpenCl needs to really get off.

[Arika]

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

Because basically consumers don't care.  Educated consumers and average Joe's will buy the product that best serves their needs regardless of how crappy the company is.   I can't think of a single company today that has suffered a drop in sales due to unethical behaviour (and there have been a few).   Fanboys are a minority, just like boycotts. 

plus, if you didn't buy from any company that had shady dealings or "unethical behavior" in the past, you would not own a lot of things... It's the way of the world.

 

Personally none of this shit affects me in any way. I don't care what Intel has done in the past, i don't care what NVidia are doing now, their products suit me. If AMD was able to create CPUs and GPUs better than the current offerings in the areas i care about, then sure, i'll buy them. But to completely boycott a company as some form of moral high ground is idiotic. I keep seeing that people are like "Nvidia doesnt care about consumers" which very well may be true, But AMD doesn't give a shit about you either, they might claim they do, but it's an empty statement. Any multiple billion dollar company would take more money over you and your opinion.

[wasab]

2 hours ago, KarathKasun said:

This is why you never go full fanboy.  I guess we need to boycott Intel because they have a CPU for sale at ~$2000 now that is not twice as fast as the competitions ~$1000 part.  I wonder how much the 8086K is going to cost too...

 

If one company is overpricing their products because of market dominance you switch brands.  Building PC's does not require that you only buy parts from one company forever.  Taking the "Ill only ever buy products from company X because they are the fastest right now" stance is much of what is wrong with the PC market.

Problem is that what nvidia is doing is hindering the consumers from  switching brands. 

[Razor01]

1 hour ago, laminutederire said:

They also stated that it was a mistake doing this because it did hurt their reputation. 

 

Are you talking about EA?  EA has no reputation to begin with, you think they really care?  LOL.

 

1 hour ago, laminutederire said:

They also stated that it was a mistake doing this because it did hurt their reputation. 

 

I'm saying enthusiasts generally do not see further than their desk. They'll say just like you that Nvidia is better for a few reasons, while the reality is that for most people Nvidia isn't really better. The average guy won't go higher than a 1070-vega 56 anyway, and most will buy into sub 580-1060. They also do not generally care about issues outside of their immediate environment. And that's what bothers me the most. The Nvidia situation is quite bad, because it has significant implications on multiple aspects of society. In an era where AI become tools to surveil people, to power transportation or to replace menial jobs, there is a danger in giving all the power to one company. In this case, Nvidia locks down artificially the AI industry by accounting for the laziness of devs who won't bother to port code to OpenCL if they don't have any incentive to (and yes I say lazy, because as of right now, there exist a tool to port CUDA to OpenCL which automates the process for 99% of the codebase, and that's still not enough for dev to get into it,which is baffling in a way, since a program almost does it all). It gives Nvidia too much power and they will abuse it as most company do (just like they're most probably doing with the gpp by the way.). Personally that's something that is more important than better hardware, because it has a real impact on our future as humans.

 

Are you serious do you want me to list out the extensions in CUDA that make applications faster?  There are about 5 of them that I know of off hand.  There are full libraries for CUDA that aren't available for Open CL lol, also libraries that do similar things that have bugs in them for Open CL.

 

You want to talk about porting.

 

Here ya go a guy that ported software from CUDA to Open CL

 

Talk about performance drops

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/268404157_Experiences_porting_from_CUDA_to_OpenCL

 

This is old but this is what Open CL was up against back in the day.

 

This created a huge rift in what to teach in colleges.

 

Now lets get to more modern times

 

http://muratbuffalo.blogspot.com/2017/09/paper-summary-opencl-caffe-accelerating.html

 

Fury X verse Titan X both don't have DP units  Fiji vs Maxwell right  this is in deep learning

 

 

Do you see the difference in what is happening this is for software that wasn't ported over, but software that was written natively for different hardware.

 

Even though Titan X has 30% more flops right 8 vs 12 Titan X is crushing it in a compute related scenario well above that margin by 3 times more, this isn't about the hardware, its about the software's ability to leverage the hardware.

 

More performance tests

 

https://arxiv.org/vc/arxiv/papers/1005/1005.2581v1.pdf

 

CUDA always had a performance advantage over OpenCL man you can't take that away and try to make it an nV vs AMD thing.  Sorry doesn't work when everything we have seen so far Open CL is just behind and AMD hardware and AMD's approach to open source platforms aren't helping the industry moving forward.

 

Don't even try that with me with AMD GPU's, I called out Vega and Polaris, and Fiji, and all other prior architectures and GPU's from the nV's 68xx and up prior to them coming out what was going to happen.  Its a lot of common sense and knowing what these companies were capable of.  I messed up with Fermi V1 but not by much there.

[dizmo]

At the end of the day, Nvidia still produces a better product. So it'll be a real hard push for Nvidia to lose market share just because of something like this. If all other aspects were equal, then we might see the market share sway.

[Razor01]

Just now, dizmo said:

At the end of the day, Nvidia still produces a better product. So it'll be a real hard push for Nvidia to lose market share just because of something like this. If all other aspects were equal, then we might see the market share sway.

 

Exactly what we should all forget that nV makes kick ass products ever generation and AMD talks crap about nV's ethics lol.

 

Where was AMD's ethics when they cut supply to Plait with the 4xxx series of cards?  Oops I guess AMD didn't want to mention that in their marketing video.

 

Shit all companies behave the same when they have an advantage.

[wasab]

1 minute ago, Razor01 said:

 

Where was AMD's ethics when they cut supply to Plait with the 4xxx series of cards?  Oops I guess AMD didn't want to mention that in their marketing video.

When did this happened?  

[Razor01]

7 minutes ago, wasab said:

When did this happened?  

https://www.pcauthority.com.au/news/gainward-and-palit-get-in-an-argument-with-amd-146187

 

https://www.geek.com/games/amd-accused-of-keeping-gpu-competition-down-stifling-innovation-788022/

 

Supposedly Plait, a new player in the AMD graphics market wanted to make GDDR5 HD4xxx products just like AMD Tier 1 partners, AMD told them no, that is only for Tier 1 partners for a certain amount of time but Gainward did it anyways, and AMD punished them for it by cutting down supply.  Shorty after Plait and all subsidiaries stopped selling AMD cards altogether.

 

This stuff happens all the time, and this is straight out refusal to give products after a contract was signed lol for certain allocation lol.

 

Even back then they were using those terms anti competitive and what not, no its not that.

[leadeater]

2 hours ago, Razor01 said:

I do too but that wasn't the reason I bought Android.  If there was a windows phone that could have competed with Android phones from a hardware level I would have gotten that.

 

The reason why I got android was because I could customize it to my content.  Can't do that with iOS.

You can't customize a damn thing on Windows phone either, nothing exists for it lol. Nokia 635 user btw lol.

 

P.S. I do actually like Windows Phone as I only use it for emails, txt, calls and hotspot. I don't give a damn about apps on a phone.

[Razor01]

2 minutes ago, leadeater said:

You can't customize a damn thing on Windows phone either, nothing exists for it lol. Nokia 635 user btw lol.

 

P.S. I do actually like Windows Phone as I only use it for emails, txt, calls and hotspot. I don't give a damn about apps on a phone.

Well the reason why I would have gotten a Windows phone would be different it would be something that I can directly sync up with my pc and have no issues with, well if MS does their work right lol.

 

I don't use my phone for stuff much outside videos, some games, apps wise is not a big deal for me.